This reminds one of the old phrases of the salesman...

If you can't confuse them with the facts, then baffle them with bullshit.

Every salesperson knows that one, they all do it. Car salesmen/saleswomen will do it to people who don't know anything about cars, same with real estate, computers, etc.
Even the current US financial crisis seems to be along the same lines...take something simple, a mortgage, and then PURPOSELY turn it into something so complex no one can understand it, and then SELL it.

That is literally the exact same thing that Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie are doing.
They are taking basic concepts, and then deliberately creating some type of complexity that cannot be understood, as this confuses and then lures people in.

The guy who posted here named RandomStu does the exact same thing, with the type of "Zen" that his group appears to practice. They construct statements which are meaningless or self-contradictory, and if you point this out, then the problem is with your "mind", and then they have started the process of confusing you. They even have precepts which forbid drugs and other vices, yet they go out and do drugs, booze, gambling, etc. Its really the same thing...programmed confusion.

Byron Katie does this with many of her carefully written phrases...Programmed Confusion.
In NLP they taught that very carefully.
- Confuse them, baffle them with bullshit.
- then you can LEAD THEM out of the confusion.

Its very simple, and very effective.

So Eastern Philosophy is all fine and dandy, and can be studied in books along these lines which are more independent.
[www.amazon.com]

but people should know that it appears that large parts of it have been used to confuse people on purpose.
Deepak Chopra is exposed quite nicely in a conversation with Richard Dawkins in the documentary "Enemies of Reason" from the BBC. Deepak Chopra is an expert in Baffle Them With Bullshit, he learned that in TM, and took it to the next level. They use words from "Quantum Physics" in the same way, just to try to deliberately confuse people.

Deepak Chopra Interview with Richard Dawkins
[www.youtube.com]

Quote
corboy
So anyone who can take these common and frightening images and link them to a story has tapped right in to a current of silent terror that affects many of us.

Excellent point.

I can see how a person is just a sitting duck for the likes of BK or ET if that person is not consciously aware of what their deepest fears are. That's scary. Its as though the protective mechanism that enables one to block out memories of experiences that resulted in fear at the level of terror (fight or flight response), is also a point of vulnerability. The memory gets blocked, but the fear associated with the experience itself hasn't been neutralized. If fear serves as an access point into a person's will, then blocking of a bad memory as a response to terror doesn't really guarantee safety at all. So much for the usefulness of the 'fight or flight' response.

Personally, I don't fear the homeless, and I wouldn't find myself propelled into a psychotic state if a cockroach ran over my foot...although I'd probably throw my foot permanently out of joint, and give a very concise demonstration to the entire neighborhood on how a potty mouth deals with sudden/bizarre trauma...but I do fear being in the economic state of the homeless, and I dread the thought of living in conditions that would attract the neighborhood bugs. I think its time to banish these fears from my inner mind..forever.

Quote
corboy
Corboy's Curse on any Huckster who Mines Rick Ross's Site to Build More Effective Cults and Rip Offs

May you never have a satisfactory shit, ever again.

May all the tortures of anal fissure, piles, constipation, and pilonidal cyst afflict you.

And even if you sidestep all this by getting a colostomy, may the ultimate Cultmaster's Curse befall you:

Knowing deep down, that you will never be known or loved as an ordinary human being.

And that in your old age, when you are helpless, in a wheelchair, and need others to look after your pee bag and change your Depends, you will risk being fleeced and ripped off by people who are as opportunistic and cold hearted as you are.

(Cue Thunder and Lightning. Lights Dim)

omg--LMAO! I'll take the bigass cockroach over the above, any day! And that park bench suddenly seems like a really comfy place to just chill and regroup too...

A Vision of the Future

A warning to all the successful and aspiring human potential entrepreneurs/euses out there:

When you are old and helpless and rich, you dont want to be surrounded by folks who will tell you 'Turn it around' after they've screwed you over in your elderly helplessness.

Or if you report that another caregiver slapped you or yanked the catheter too hard and your bladder is burning from another urinary tract infection, you dont want the caregiver to smile at you and say, 'Dont get lost in victim mentality. There are no victims, only volunteers.'

If your set up colonizes the minds of every human creatures, the only caregivers left in your old age will turn your words against you, in your old age.

If you do not want elder abuse to happen to you, do not mine RR.com for tricks on how to make your crummy cult more effective. In your old age, you want caregivers who have not been affected by The Work and who will respond as human beings, throw your Four Questions in your face when you are trapped in a wheelchair and are speech impaired.

If the whole world is converted to The Work, that means when you are old and helpless and cry in pain, every available caregiver will respond to your pleas for care with 'Turn it around'. Your genuine human suffering will be smilingly ignored.

Your only hope for dignity and confort and safety when old and helpless is if a few people are left who have never been exposed to The Work and who have empathy, see your needs as human needs, and who will NOT tell you to Turn it Around when you cry for a drink of water or and who will turn you over often enough so you dont get bedsores.

People who will turn you over, not tell you to turn your thoughts around.

To prevent bedsores when you are old, turning your own thoughts around wont work. You need someone to turn your body around--skillfully and lovingly.

If The Work reachs the whole world, the conditions needed for safety and care in your old age will not exist.

And remember, you dont want to wind up old and helpless and at the mercy of venal folk who have mastered your tech, see you as an object and are hovering like vultures waiting to plunder your bank accounts as soon as you are too demented to protect yourself. And then, after you sign over your accounts to them, dope you so you cannot tell anyone what has been done to you.

Or who refuse to change your Depends until they browbeat you into signing over control of your empire to them. This is called Elder Abuse and can happen even to cultmeisters.

In your helpless old age you want to be surrounded by people who will be incapable of elder abuse, because they have empathy--the very thing an LGAT or other kind of cult trains out of people.

You want caregivers who will see your inherant human dignity, even when you are old and frail and dont have the energy or cognitive ability to be charismatic any more.

Your ideal caregiver for those old and frail will have empathy and will not bypass the pain of being human by Turning It Around.

When old you want a caregiver who will turn toward your pain, not turn away by using the word games you hoped would take over all the world, never imagining that the triumph of The Work would make the world a horrible to find oneself old and helpless in and where even abundant wealth would not suffice to purchase empathy when empathy has been trained out of everyone because The Work triumphed.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2008 11:03PM by corboy.

seems to me that BK, ET, and Werner are all getting up there in years...hope they're listening in! In case they are: never say never, and recall that you are still a mere mortal like the rest of us, and you're aging fast...

Quote
The Anticult
Deepak Chopra Interview with Richard Dawkins
[www.youtube.com]

That was awesome. I *heart* Dawkins. :-)

yeah, Richard Dawkins is doing good work out there, and even though he is pretty tough, he is fair with people.
In the BBC program that is from, called "Enemies of Reason" (its on the internet to watch),
Enemies of Reason Ep.1 (1 of 5)
[www.youtube.com]

he is quite funny and more gentle with most people. He talks with some lady who is talking about DNA from Atlantis, and then gives him some type of DNA aura treatment. (she must have no idea of who she is talking to). Dawkins also explains Homeopathy, and various other new agey things.

But he shows to to try and figure out if any of these things have any value, and that is to TEST them properly, using scientific methods.

Deepak Chopra is so arrogant, he pretends he has figured out the entire universe, and is very skilled at bamboozling New Agey people with fancy words. But Deepak Chopra gets nowhere with any properly trained thinker or scientist. I find Chopra very slimey and arrogant.
It would not be surprising if he cut some type of deal with Byron Katie at some point.

But talk about the Enemies of Reason, Byron Katie goes way beyond anyone featured in that documentary. But of course, Byron Katie is not so much an flakey New Ager, as opposed to someone who wants to flake out people's minds, so they hand over 10's of thousands of dollars to her.

And of course, the Byron Katie system is set up, so if you start to criticize her, then you have to turn it around and criticize yourself. So the Byron Katie system is very brilliantly put together, its very hard for people to escape from, as when things go bad, then people just blame themselves even more.
It really is a closed-system, a type of Catch-22 system, and she would be very proud of how she designed it.

Quote
The Anticult
yeah, Richard Dawkins is doing good work out there, and even though he is pretty tough, he is fair with people.
In the BBC program that is from, called "Enemies of Reason" (its on the internet to watch),
Enemies of Reason Ep.1 (1 of 5)
[www.youtube.com]

Thanks, that was great.

Btw, I really got a lot out of reading Dawkins' "The God Delusion."

Looking at the official Byron Katie blog tonight, there are definitely implicit claims being made by those involved that 'The Work' cures illness:

Quote from the BK Blog: " One story in particular I wanted to tell you about is the story of M, a psychologist who was very interested in The Work. She came to our first workshop because she had been suffering from pain in her face and head for 16 years. She was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, and much later was told it was the wrong diagnosis. She took anti-depressants for 15 years, and came to the workshop "desperate."

In the first day of the workshop, participants went home with a homework of doing a 'self facilitation worksheet' on a thought. On the second day they return to talk about their experience of doing The Work by themselves. M shared that the night before as she did her Work on herself, she found that she has been frustrated for 20 years because she didn't marry the man she loved and married another man instead. Amazed at what she discovered, she told us that, for the first time in 16 years, she didn't wake up with pain and was filled with joy. Even her face was completely transformed. She never thought she could find a tool that could free her from her pain and she was relieved to learn that didn't need a specialist to "fix" her."

In a different article posted on the blog, one food reporter writes that there are "many examples of disease being cured" by doing 'The Work'. No concrete examples are offered of these cures in the article itself. As discussed by Richard Dawkins in 'Enemies of Reason' the general 'feel-good' factor completely overrides consideration of the reality of such claims.

The photographs of people doing Katie's seminars in Mexico and Puerto Rico look like so many of the generic photos that I collected over the years from my time in a cult ... groups of individuals smiling brightly as though all the cares of the world have been lifted off their shoulders forever.

But the cares of the world do come back after you get home from the seminar. The 'ordinary world' can seem so mundane, you feel like 'normal' people outside the group just don't 'get it'. People in our group would joke about the 'seminar high'; the incredible feeling of being surrounded by a group of warm, caring individuals, all of whom 'understood' each other because they shared the same belief system.

They would often talk about the 'energy' feeling so strong or the 'vibration' being so elevated. In seminars, there were some people who saw visions of the Virgin Mary, Jesus Christ or other 'Beings' and 'auras'. They would report back to others and the stories would be whispered among the seminar participants in tones of great reverence as proof of the 'amazing' things that were happening.

The food reporter gushes: " ... I am feasting with gusto. As I write this, golden sunshine is sprinkling on trees which are air kissing the washed sky. Gleaming geese are gliding with the flow in the rippling stream which flows through the bosom of this charming spa town in Germany."

The 'bosom'? Are you kidding me? This is the way you feel when you're on a seminar high, folks! Every emotion is heightened and sentimentalized. You feel sooo alive. Then the reporter does a neat little 'turn-around' and it throws the reader off-balance: "Let me correct myself. I am not feasting but fasting."

So which is it? Ahhh. It is both. The reporter is fasting on the healthy diet that is prescribed at Byron Katie workshops, which has been described earlier on this thread as rich and not always pleasant. No tea, no coffee, no chocolate. But she finds it to be a 'delicious detox'.

Let me see ... Long hours of seminars where 'complex thoughts' are condensed into simple 'worksheets, songs, lyrics'. A sparkly eyed guru. A restrictive diet. A group of people who believe that what they are doing will ultimately save the world. It's all too familiar.

A couple of things lept out from the above post, the first quote part is literally a hypnotic script.

Byron Katie embedded marketing in a hypnotice script, and demographic Targeting, at her audience.

First, she says this woman is a PSYCHOLOGIST. Notice how Katie is obsessed with getting any shred of endorsement from a legit person, also notice of course is ANONYMOUS, which means its all just a made up Story, and there is no such actual person. Its just a fake-story. (the only actual endorsement Katie has so far are from a couple sleazy guys who are selling their own stuff to the same audience).

Also, notice its an older female, who is the main cash Target for Byron Katie.

Next, UNHAPPY MARRIAGE, and PHYSICAL ILLNESS. (which is about 80% of the population!!)
Also, she is DESPERATE. Notice how Katie Targets DESPERATE people. (they are the easiest ones to sell to).

So Byron Katie stacks it all up.
Older women in unhappy marriages/lives with serious painful physical illnesses.

PAIN.
PAIN PAIN PAIN PAIN. HORRIBLE PAIN and MISERY.
:-(


then, PLEASURE. and JOY, LOVE and happiness.
:-)
Byron Katie claims she cures her physical illness without a doctor (for those without medical insurance one assumes), and also has her find True Love, live happily ever after, and END ALL HUMAN SUFFERING, which is the Byron Katie lie/myth story.

Its so transparent, its Sales 101.
Find the customers DESPERATE PAIN, and Target your customer.
Make a Big Claim you can heal their pain and give them Pleasure.

Its literally textbook stuff. Of course, what makes it sell, is that Katie has Targeted an audience who knows very little about Sales methods, or NLP, persuasion, hypnosis, etc. That is why it works so well.

Its a shame that people fall for it, and sadly, its the truly nice and decent people who are too trusting in life, who really get scammed. Those are the ones who end up on their knees before their Guru, who mortgage their house to give Byron Katie $100,000 to try and win her approval.
Its all very sad.
There are many people literally being driven into the poorhouse, giving literally ALL their assets and money to Byron Katie, and then blaming themselves once its all over.
Utterly ruthless exploitation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2008 02:22PM by The Anticult.

From John Knapp's website--an article on trance addiction.

[knappfamilycounseling.com]

(Pause for station identification)

Those who dislike the implications of the article may try to dismiss it by saying, 'Oh, John Knapp just wrote this to recruit for his practice. This isnt any different from what BK does.

Well, ha ha. There is a difference. Unlike BK, Mr. Knapp is a licensed mental health professional.

For, unlike BK, Mr Knapp took the courses, did the supervised hours, and took the gruelling written and oral tests needed to get a license to practice as an LCSW in the state of California, and he either has to pay hefty malpractice premiums, or works at a clinic that pays these. And if someone feels harmed by him, they can call and complain to the Board of Behavioral Sciences. John has accepted responsibility for his life and work in a way that BK and others, who are not licensed, have not.

And...bonus--you dont have to even call Mr Knapp up or get involved with him in order to benefit from this article.

He mentions a book that you can go out and read that describes in technical detail, the biochemistry of trance.

Quote

(Kathleen Taylor writes in Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control, Oxford University Press, 2004 that trance stimulates serotonin, dopamine, and endorphin levels, creating receptive state to suggestions.

These, serotonin, dopamine and endorphins, boys and girls, are the neurotransmitters that make us feel good, even feel blissful. So much for 'but it was my experience!!!'

Endorphins are what are termed 'Endogenous (internally produced) opiates. Morphine and heroin get us high because they latch onto the same receptors as our endogenous opiates.



And, Knapp is careful to state when he is using anecdotal evidence, as in

Quote

I don't have hard figures, but many of the people I know who decided to leave their cultic meditation groups, but chose to continue meditating, eventually ended up going back to their old group.

Knapp doesnt mention it, but another variation is that people may keep a cult personality intact after leaving group A, continue to meditate...and later get involved in another group. They may leave a group led by a woman in Hindu garb and feel that they're safe if they get involved in another group led by a woman who dresses in American casual professional garb..yet end up trapped again.

Mr Knapp discusses the implications for those who emerged from Transcendental Meditation.

But though written by a former TM governor, Knapps anecdotal speculations may well apply to those who served time in Siddha Yoga (Muktananda/Gurumayi) and persons who find themselves dependent on experiencing LGAT highs. (and Muktananda also incorporated Est tech into his 'intensives' for Muk was a friend of Werner Erhards)


and

Quote

....trance is a sly seductress. Meditation is one of nature's miracles; it feels wonderful for most who practice it.

But there's no doubt that trance states are states of increased suggestibility, states in which critical thought cannot be sustained. It seems likely that simply continuing the experience of trance makes one susceptible to maintaining cultic beliefs and world views despite the decision to leave the group.

.....

My hypothesis is that continuing to meditate after “leaving” TM and similar groups keeps the cult personality lively, ready to pounce and reassert control of your life.

A third consideration: I have no research to contribute, but based on the anecdotes of many former meditators, I wonder if trance abuse induces physical addiction, not just emotional dependence.

Ever miss a meditation after practicing faithfully for a long time? Many people report a feeling of anxiety that increases the longer they wait after their accustomed meditation time. And many people who don’t meditate for days after regular practice for years report some or all of these symptoms: mild confusion, fatigue, concentration problems, spaciness, irritability, an overwhelming need for sleep -- or difficulty falling asleep. Some report physical symptoms such as a mild feverishness, flu-like feelings, muscular aches and pains, a hyper-aroused state in which physical touch is irritating, and other vague physical sensations.

Readers who have experienced long meditation courses lasting for weeks or months may have had similar experiences as they “came down” in meditation rounds (meditated less in preparation for going home from the course).

If any former drug addicts or alcoholics have read this far, they may recognize these symptoms. They’re the signs of addictive withdrawal.

Now, TMers are indoctrinated with a different explanation. Meditators who have decided to quit meditation and begin to experience these symptoms frequently jump to the conclusion that they are now “unstressing.” They may see these mild problems as proof that meditation “works” and they are now suffering because they are re-entering a state of ignorance. Very likely, they will re-begin the practice with renewed conviction.

Advice offered for those wishing to free themselves:

Quote

I recommend that you do consider ceasing to meditate if you decide to leave your meditation group. I believe the danger of being sucked back into a hurtful organization is too great to risk continuing meditation. I don’t suggest that you never meditate again. (This would be decidedly hypocritical of me. I meditate, pray, and do yoga regularly, although I haven’t done TM for many years.) But I recommend that you set a significant time goal for yourself during which you will break your meditation habit. I recommend 6 months, although shorter or longer periods may prove optimum once this is researched. After you’ve experienced life without meditation — and what may be an addiction, you are in a better position to make a rational decision about whether you will re-begin meditating or not.

Second, keep yourself open to the possibility that the mild symptoms of discomfort that you may experience do not prove that meditation works. Consider, in fact, that they are proof that meditation may create an unhealthy physical dependence. Just this simple change in viewpoint may serve to get you through your withdrawal period.

Thirdly, find other activities that meet the physical and emotional needs that meditation met. As an example, vigorous physical activity also raises endorphin levels. Exit counselor Pat Ryan and others have reported that the increased endorphin levels from aerobics or weight training can ease the feelings of physical withdrawal.

Finally, the spiritual hole that leaving your meditation group and ceasing meditation causes must be filled again. But that’s the subject for another article: "How to Kick the Meditation Habit Step-by-Step."

[knappfamilycounseling.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2008 08:46PM by corboy.