Helpme2times:

""Idunno", I don't see how you can say" I never 'guru-ized' BK" when you also say "I more or less revere her as a teacher" (gurus are revered, after all) and "I was hooked after the very first worksheet and have been doing The Work since then". Methinks you are lying to yourself. "

Yes. I also revere actors, authors, musicians, artists, scientists, and doctors for their talents that augment my enjoyment, knowledge, or positive perception of life. I do spend SOME money on these people (like going to watch movies by my favorite actors) but I don't worship these people and think they are flawless. BK offered me a tool, The Work, that helped me relieve a lot of stress in my life but definitely not all of it. Nor do I think The Work works for everyone, obviously.

"But then Byron Katie is alleged to have said, "Everything I say is a lie" and I find some of the turnarounds to be outright lies. Like, how can someone truly believe in a turnaround like "I want my cancer to keep growing"? To me that is very sick thinking. And someone at Oprah.com who has survived cancer wrote in that she was absolutely horrified when she heard that turnaround pushed on a guy with terminal cancer in [one of the YouTube videos]. "

Yes. I've seen that awhile ago. OK. This is how I interpret turn-arounds. I'm not saying my interpretations are right or that everyone should see things my way. The other thing that I think is extremely important to mention is that I don't try to believe the turn-around, either, especially if it is not true for me. (If I had a choice, I wouldn't want cancer. Period.) But for the sake of my own emotional benefit, I try to find loving or peaceful reasons to support the turn-around. Those reasons might be completely off the wall, too. Again, I stress, it doesn't mean that I try to believe it or try to prefer it to the original thought.

"I want my cancer to keep growing..."
...if for some reason, because of me, doctors eventually find a cure for cancer. (Not likely gonna happen, but hey, it is a valid reason.)
...if it helps my family to drop their disputes, see what's really important in life, and comes closer together. (Again, this is all hypothetical. I'm definitely not hoping my cancer will continue to grow just to have this happen.)
...if it motivates me to search for a my own treatment and cure
...for in the possible event it is cured, I would appreciate and take care of my body better
...if it teaches me to stop stressing about what I want out of life and to start enjoying it instead (I think I like this reason the best, but in all actuality, I would still prefer to not have cancer.)

And, mind you, "I want my cancer to keep growing..." is just one turn-around. I don't stick to a die-hard fast rule that I have to entertain every turn-around. If I can't find peaceful or loving reasons to support it, I skip it and move onto another.

******

Corboy:

"Well, you're very invested in defending BK here."

No. I am not. So far, I've just been defending myself to you. If BK is a cult guru, then she's a cult guru. If she's not, she's not. Whatever her truth is at the core, I can't know. It still doesn't take away the fact I did highly benefit from The Work. Why exactly I did whereas others have not I think would be an interesting topic to explore.

With respect,
Idunno

Quote
Idunno
Corboy:

"Well, you're very invested in defending BK here."

No. I am not. So far, I've just been defending myself to you. If BK is a cult guru, then she's a cult guru. If she's not, she's not. Whatever her truth is at the core, I can't know. It still doesn't take away the fact I did highly benefit from The Work. Why exactly I did whereas others have not I think would be an interesting topic to explore.

"Idunno", this is disingenuous. You ARE defending BK when you keep insisting how wonderful her method is. The problem is, this here is a forum for people who have felt HARMED by the work. Your grandstanding about the work isn't helpful to those people. I being one of them.

Of course it would be interesting to explore why some people feel they derive benefit from the work. But imo it would probably be because they're doing it partially and therefore tapping into the useful aspects that mimic cognitive therapy.

Idunno:

Your last post was not approved and deleted.

Frankly, let's be honest, you are here as an apologist and your posts are becoming quite predictable and very redundant.

Over and over again you essentially say that based upon your subjective experience Ms. Katie is OK by you, but of course not for everyone.

OK. We get it.

Please understand that this kind of tired apology is offered by almost every LGAT lover that posts on this message board.

But no objective measurable results are ever offered through any meaningful scientifically gathered research, just anecdotal stories based upon subjective experiences.

Sorry, but that's more like a religious testimonial after some sort of revival or faith healing event, more than anything really solid or relevant.

Others here are concerned with facts, such as Katie attempting to act as what essentially can be seen as mental health counselor, but without any meaningful licensing or credentials.

If you have something factual to offer in support of Katie fine, otherwise I strongly suggest you move on.

Your personal testimonials are becoming increasingly tedious, repetitious and boorish.

I have no experience with Byron Katie, but I've read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" and "Stillness Speaks."

I found the ideas to be inspiring and refreshing at the time. But as with all self-help I've tried, they never stuck, although they did help get me interested in spirituality enough to find a legit meditation hall.

I think Tolle's ideas might be interesting to investigate - and personally scrutinize - for a beginning seeker, but I would be careful about doing more than purchasing or taking out a couple books. I didn't even buy into everything he said...particularly the stuff about a cosmic consciousness awakening through the people currently on earth. But I also don't recall him shilling for cults or for his own seminars, or giving any messages of doom and gloom, or anything that seemed any more suspicious than your "average" self-help author. (Yes, I have read self-help books where the authors shilled for cults and seminars. And by experimenting with the ideas in one of the worst, without even taking a seminar, I almost lost friends.)

So my advice on Tolle would be: Read a book or two if you're curious and/or want a little booster. But personally, I'm leery of seminars in general. Even at the legit meditation hall I go to, I've thought that one of the more expensive trainings I tried was good, but not quite worth paying for again. And also be careful of hero-worship, or looking too hard for answers. Any good teaching on presence and awareness would probably say it's a good thing to watch out for foolishness and impulsiveness in oneself.

Actually, Eckhart Tolle does shill for his own speeches which earn him a fortune for each appearance, literally a few speeches bring in a million dollars in profit. Eckhart Tolle is an entrepreneur and serious moneymaker, and always has been.

Also, Eckhart Tolle shills for his own personal network marketing style Church Of Tolle, in that he has people set up home meetings where they watch Eckhart Tolle on DVD, and then don't talk to eachother...its all hypnosis, very carefully designed.
There is info here about it.

[forum.culteducation.com]

WARNING: Eckhart Tolle - Local Silent Groups, cult alert
[forum.culteducation.com]


Its a real shame so many people don't take a closer look at these things, and appear to be duped by the Advertising methods of people like Eckhart Tolle. They just believe the New Wage hype and don't seem to look just beneath the surface.

On a strange note, recently there was a guy involved in a small local company, who on his personal blogs stated the Eckhart Tolle and The Power of Now was his favorite book. Turns out this particular personal was one of the most dishonest people anyone involved had ever had the displeasure of working with, and this "Eckhart Tolle fan" created very serious trouble for many people he worked with. (without going into the details).
One has to wonder to what extent the ET disconnection from "reality" creates these problems of lying and self-righteous dishonesty?

That is why one should be very careful when dealing with people who swear allegiance to Byron Katie or Eckhart Tolle, or TM, Scientology, Landmark Forum, etc.
Time and time again you find they have no problem "lying" to get what they want. Its basically systemantic lying to others, and to themselves.
At this point, that is actually a good BS detector test when working with new people. When you are out for a coffee, if they start yapping-on about Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katie or others, then know you may be dealing with someone who has no moral problem lying right to your face repeatedly.
They don't even believe in "truth" so lying is no problemo.

This Eckhart Tolle superfan wackjob, that a number of close associates had to deal with recently, was a complete disaster for everyone involved. He operated with an almost criminal lack of morality, all the while wearing the overt badge of self-righteous New Age Eckhart Tolle Spiritual yoga yuppie. They seem to use the New Age type banner as a smokescreen to try to make people think they are a "spiritual person", meanwhile they are lying their ass off to try to get what they want. They also seem to really "believe" they are spiritual people, and its all these other jerks who are creating the problem. Bascially, self-obsessed narcissists seem to get attracted to all of these ME ME ME ME New Agey things.

So when someone openly declares what an amazingly spiritual consciousness they have and how Eckhart Tolle has taught them how to live in the moment...prepare to have all normal business standards and agreements violated with systematic lying and dishonesty done under the guise of new age enlightenment!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2008 05:10AM by The Anticult.

Quote
The Anticult:
So when someone openly declares what an amazingly spiritual consciousness they have and how Eckhart Tolle has taught them how to live in the moment

If you have to say 'I am a spiritual person' that calls into question whether this is true.

If you have to say 'I am a loving person' or 'I am compassionate' -- this calls into question whether you have these qualities.

When someone's the real deal, nothing has to be said. Spirituality, love and compassion slip out with no need to say a word.

There's a kind of virtual spirituality these days. One talks about spirituality, but it is divorced from action--such as interpersonal loyalty.

To me the core definition of a bad relationship or a cult is -- unreciprocated loyalty.

Devotees have this fanatical devotion to someone's public persona, to someone they have never been close to, day to day.

They give attention, time, treasure, on behalf of their guru, but that guru has no reciprocal loyalty to them--and the disclaimer forms one must sign mean the guru is free to cut these devotees loose and disown them when they get into trouble--or threaten to bring trouble to the guru.

Unreciprocated loyalty to someone whom you may only know through that person's own stories.

Yet you are told to give up your own story...

Beggars the imagination.

Un Reciprocated Loyalty--a case study

Here is a way to investigate this.

Someone on one of the Google listserves posted a copy of Landmark's form entitled

"NOTICE OF IMPORTANT INFORMATION AND HEALTH WARNINGS"

the full copy can be read here:

[groups.google.com];

A very promising way to determine if something might be an LGAT is to get copies of their disclaimer forms and compare them with this one.

If someone refuses to give you a copy of the form so you can take it home and study it at leisure, refuse to participate.

(By way of contrast, Ive done athletic events and the waiver forms are sent us weeks ahead of time -- and there is plenty of time to look them over and make a copy for our records if we so desire.)

One marker is an LGAT is prepared to take all the credit if you feel you benefit, but if you feel harmed or feel that you fail to benefit, the LGAT will (and IMO this is the tip off)--wash its hands of you and put the onus on you.

For groups that claim to teach us to take responsibility for our lives, this refusal of a group to accept any responsiblity for poor outcomes and a willingness only to take credit for successful outcomes is a selective game of accepting responsiblity only with things go well and putting the blame on the subject if things go wrong.

Quote
The Anticult
Bascially, self-obsessed narcissists seem to get attracted to all of these ME ME ME ME New Agey things.

I dunno (pardon the pun given our recent visitor) if it's just that. Maybe in some cases. I think there are a lot of suffering people looking for a cure who fall for the likes of Tolle and BK. (Both Tolle and BK emphasize that they'd been suicidal for a long time "pre-enlightenment". People experiencing something similar could easily be drawn to them. I certainly fall into that category.) Also, I've known rather giving people who have fallen for Tolle and/or BK, people who have devoted themselves at least somewhat to "selfless service". Hardly ME ME ME ME types. Although maybe you weren't saying that it's ONLY that sort of person who gets caught up in this stuff.

corboy - please could you re-post the link in the last post that you made?

I would like to look more closely and compare Landmark disclaimers to the one that I had so many people sign without giving it much thought at all:

Student (looking at disclaimer): "What is this?"
Me: "Oh, it's nothing, just a legal thing we need to do to. Just go ahead and sign right there. Great, thanks"

I don't particularly want to think of myself as a ME ME ME type either. I thought that my motives were sincere in the spirit of selfless service.

Yet I am forced to admit that there may have been unconscious motivating factors at work ... and I can only assume that is true of many others who were in the group.

The same thing appears to be true for many people in the wider New Age community as we have learned so well from this thread.

Byron Katie says 'Everything I say is a lie'. It seems that many of her 'students' accept this statment not as a horrible lack of basic morality but as a clever means of reaching the truth about the human experience.

It's incredibly weird and it does 'beggar the imagination' but when one is entrenched in a cultic situation, basic values can be reversed, 'turned around' or upside down and it all makes such perfect sense within the cultic belief framework.

PS: Anticult - regarding the link to discussion of Eckhardt Tolle's name ... as a 'spiritual practitioner' back in the day I believed that was his real name and that the extraordinary coincidence pointed to the possibility that Eckhardt Tolle was the re-incarnation of Meister Eckhardt !!!

I only feel free to post this embarrasing piece of personal foolishness due to the anonimity of this forum ... Heh heh.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2008 10:32AM by solea13.