The levels of suicides, homicides, and self-harm from those with all of the various forms of PTSD is far beyond what most people have any clue about.
Only highly trained licensed professionals, who set up careful systems with people should deal with that.
That is why every single proper therapy always says anyone with PTSD should seek proper medical attention immediately.

But Byron Katie tells people The Work is a treatment for trauma, when there is literally ZERO evidence for that. Literally nothing at all.
People are going to get very seriously hurt, and even worse.

One could do an experiment, and contact 20 BK Facilitators and let it drop in the conversation that you have had Trauma, PTSD, or suicidal impulses. See how many of them stop the therapy.
Probably zero would stop it, they would get right into it.
That is how they are trained.

I have read now pages 9-18 of this thread. I will continue daily.

I have one area I would like to clear - I said "staff fee" - more accurately that is food and lodging cost, not staff fee. Yes - staff pay food and lodging cost.

Here is the message I am getting from my interaction here so far:
There is a risk of being sued if offering services as a facilitator, BK will not support me if I am sued, and do I really want to put myself into that position by offering myself as a facilitator of TW.

I am listening.

And here is a question - would you like this "surprise visitor" to stay or leave?

Here is a question - it's sincere - what about the personal life coach industry and how they are handling dealing with people who are at risk? So you see differences?

From anticult:
One could do an experiment, and contact 20 BK Facilitators and let it drop in the conversation that you have had Trauma, PTSD, or suicidal impulses. See how many of them stop the therapy.
Probably zero would stop it, they would get right into it.
That is how they are trained.

from CC:
Do you think that is how I have been trained? Or do you know that is how I have been trained? Is this conjecture or fact?

I see a statement "that is how they are trained." How did you find that info out? Do you want to ask a facilitator?
Here I am.

"I will respond to questions and comments as time permits, but if you want to take issue with any position expressed here, you first have to answer this question:

What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?

I simply will not reply to challenges that do not address this question."


cc response: Not sure if this was directed to me or if I am suspect of trolling, but let me know if I didn't answer the question about what evidence it would take to prove my beliefs wrong. And, if I did, whether I can be here as a visitor. I don't see that I have challenged anyone's beliefs yet. And I don't see anyone playing hardball here.

Corboy - I have taken in everything you have offered and see your approach with me as helpful and instructive.

"Corboy - I have taken in everything you have offered and see your approach with me as helpful and instructive."

Again, if you did not enjoy what I wrote, I can guarantee it is a lot worse in a court room.

Just make sure BK is as loyal to you as you are to her.

Quote
cultcity
I have read now pages 9-18 of this thread. I will continue daily.

I have one area I would like to clear - I said "staff fee" - more accurately that is food and lodging cost, not staff fee. Yes - staff pay food and lodging cost.

Here is the message I am getting from my interaction here so far:
There is a risk of being sued if offering services as a facilitator, BK will not support me if I am sued, and do I really want to put myself into that position by offering myself as a facilitator of TW.

I am listening.

And here is a question - would you like this "surprise visitor" to stay or leave?

Here is a question - it's sincere - what about the personal life coach industry and how they are handling dealing with people who are at risk? So you see differences?

Since most of the "staff" are not getting paid at all, one would think Byron Katie with all that she is raking in would at least foot the bill for their food and lodging?

Why bring up coaching when the topic at hand is BK? That sure seems like a diversion. And you do seem like someone who is deeply indoctrinated into the work. A casual user of the work would not likely want to "facilitate".

Byron Katie's blog talks about using her work with veterans who have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder:

[[url=http://www.byronkatie.com/2007/06/posttraumatic_stress_syndrome.htm]Treating Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Veterans & The Work[/url]]

Notice that it says TREATING Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Someone who commented on the PTSD blog said (note: I've bolded a few parts):

Quote

One young man, Joe, probably an Iraqi War vet judging by his age, with his basball cap pulled down over his eyes, stood up when Katie recognized him and said something like, "those of you here who know me know that I hardly ever say anything. So here goes: I killed a woman and her child." And he looked at Katie, as if to say, "I dare you to get me out of this one, Lady" (My stressful thought was: "wow, I could never facilitate that one".;) And katie took him through It. When he got to question 4 or maybe a turnaround, he abruptly exited the room [my note: good for him! I think his instinct was right on], followed closely by Jonathan, one of the staff psychologists whom I had known from my School. (I was relieved to see Jonathan on Joe's tail, but my stressful thought was: "This was too much for Joe; he is going to hurt himself.") Two hours later, I saw Joe in the corridor after our lunch break. To my astonishment, he looked fine, and I walked over to him, he smiled at me, and I asked, "are you okay?" Joe said "I'm fine. I just knew I was going to break down so I left." I asked, "could I give you a hug because I know I need one myself," and he opened his arms and said, "I will always take a hug" so we did. We chatted for a bit and he was totally fine. [my note: how can this person really know this? is it true? what has happened for Joe since then, has he been tracked?] Later, Katie told me that I never have to worry faciliating TW because "TW will not cause anyone any more pain than their own stressful thoughts have already caused them." And, in the case of Viet Nam vets who after 40 years are still believing stressful thoughts - and there were many there - this has to be really, really true.

So, Byron Katie seems to have said that a facilitator never has to worry about facilitating, that the work won't cause any more pain. Oh really? My own experience with a facilitator totally contradicts this. I think that a facilitator SHOULD be quite concerned about the potential effects of facilitation. And let's not forget that there's at least one person who became a facilitator and went on to commit murder (the case of Rochelle Laudenslager).

I have said my piece on so-called personal Life Coaches before, they are mainly a waste of money and useless, and at worst very harmful. Its too broad.
A coach is about specific skills, like golf. If a person has a problem, find a coach for that problem, like a golf coach, or a piano coach, etc.
Life Coaches are a current fad to make easy money. Many of the contracts are tricky and lock people in.

But Byron Katie Facilitators are NOT Life Coaches. They get into deep emotional issues with troubled people.
And there are many cases where BK Facilitators go right into trauma, sexual abuse, PTSD, and severe depression. Byron Katie sends her Facilitators right into deal with those issues.
Byron Katie has told them The Work can fix these things.

That is NOT true. Its false.
There is no proof for any of it.

Serious issues need to be handled by licensed professionals. A good psychologist sorta is a life coach, but has the training to help people properly.

CultCity:
This thread has been trolled time and time again by Byron Katie people who have been completely dishonest. Now of course, they see that as being justified, as they think there are some people here trying to crucify Jesus Christ.
Also, if a person really believes in the Byron Katie ideas, then there is no such thing as "truth" anyway. There are a lot of apologists out there who try to white-wash Byron Katie, like Carol Skolnick.

Dear lord, the bald-faced lies put out by Byron Katie, are unbelievable.
Do you seriously believe she learned all of her persuasion techniques by magic at the foot of a cockroach?
Then why are many of techniques she uses in her LGAT's exactly the same as other people?
She and her people have "copied" them, in NLP, that is called Modeling.


Also, about the STAFF. That was mentioned long ago that Byron Katie CHARGES people to be on "Staff". It doesn't matter what for. When you are on "staff" you get paid, not charged.
Don't you see the tricky doublespeak? (I don't think its a food and lodging cost, as they would get group corporate rates, and the rates should be far lower. Also, if you stayed with family off-site, and bagged your lunches....of course they don't allow that. You have to live and eat with the "group").
If you are STAFF, you should be paid a per diem, not pay a per diem!!

Are you aware that every single LGAT scam out there does a version of the same thing?
This is how they get dozens of FREE WORKERS to staff their LGAT's. Its almost an in-joke for them, as they know they can get people to work 16 hrs a day for free, and work harder than if they paid them.
Do you know most LGAT's do this? But they are smart enough NOT to call them "Staff". Seriously, that might not be legal.
They call it STAFF, as its a badge of honor for people, like Carol Skolnick who says things like..."I Staffed _____". Sounds like a job, it ain't.
You see how Katie is using language on people?

So the BK people who are honest and decent, need to do some serious research into LGAT's.
I promise you, after some careful study, one day it will hit you like a ton of bricks what is going on in those LGAT seminars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 12:20PM by The Anticult.

Cult City's questions are best answered by his or her hiring an attorney--not by us.

William Butler Yeats wrote a poem that ends,

'I am poor and have only my dreams

I will spread my dreams under your feet.

Tread softly for you tread on my dreams.'

In this modern world of cost and profit, there may be a compensatory and yearning for magic, for instant transformation, for some Magic Parent who will come along, and who, with a charming smile, gives a charming sparkle of the eyes, an ever so charming tilt of the head, and with makes that pain instantly go away.

That yearning for magic exists in us.

If consciously recognized, this yearning and its development leads to everything from great art, to the core energy that combined with real training, recognition of the risks, and accountability to an ethos of care and wilingness to take the consquences if a patient incurs harm, makes the finest healers.

But that same yearning, if unconscious and not combined with adult recognition of real world hazards and adult obligations, can lead us right into the hands of LGATs.

That yearning is legitimate and it CAN be combined with adult critical thinking.

The inner child and inner parent can actually collaborate.

Problem is, all too often there are folks who exploit the yearning and find ways to split off our magic yearning inner child and disable the inner parent, by disabling the adult parenting/protective critical thinking skills.

That leaves our eager yearning inner child highly vulerable to exploitation.

THis does not have to happen. Your yearning for magic can coexist with the best and finest adult level thought and awareness of real word responsibility - and legal risks and consequences.

It is noteworthy (Anticult can help us here) that one of the early NLP books was entitled The Structure of Magic.

This isnt a forum for discussing life coaching. .

If you want us to recommend a lawyer, or say 'I cannot afford an attorney.' .

1) You came up with the money for BK related stuff. So dig some funds up and pay for an interview with a lawyer--and make sure its someone you find and hire yourself, NOT someone working for BK.

(And dont ask any of your BK friends for a recommendation, either. Be a grown up and find that lawyer yourself, so your best interests are represented.)

2) You say you dont know where to find a lawyer?

Given that you dont have a professional affiliation, you need to call your local bar association and ask for advice.

Now...if you had used the money you say you spent on BK related services and events and had instead used it to go to a clinical program and had done the supervised hours and passed the tests needed to be licensed in your state to practice as a counselor or therapist, you'd already belong to a professonal association.

By belonging to that association, you'd get their free or very cheap news letter.

That newsletter would give you the names of people who would refer you to a list of attorneys who know best how to answer the kinds of questions you'd have.

And..had you obtained a license, or were still in training, you'd be either working for a clinic that carries liability insurance, or if licensed, would be working at a clinic or be in private practice and be carrying your own liability insurance. Either way you'd be able to afford to pay for and then have a consultation with an attorney--who could answer your questions far better than anyone can on RR.com

Dont ask us questions--ask BK and especially ask a lawyer.

If you cant ask BK these questions, you're not able to be adult and conscious in relation to her.

In such a situation, one's inner child has become split off from one's protective inner parent--the one who could ask such questions--and if
necessary say 'Yes, the person is charming and makes you feel happy
and joyous. But this is not safe for you and I am taking you home--NOW.'



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 09:58PM by corboy.

Anticult said: "Do you seriously believe she learned all of her persuasion techniques by magic at the foot of a cockroach?"

Right. Like magic, those four questions just popped in there!

From Allison Adato's Los Angeles Times interview with Byron Katie, "How a Self-Help Guru is Born":

Quote

As she tells it, by the time she was 43 in February 1986, her life had hit a nadir of hopelessness. What happened between then and now is an oft-alluded to but little-probed story in Byron Katie circles...


...Katie says she awoke one morning to the sensation of a cockroach crawling across her foot. She opened her eyes and, she explains in her book, "It was as if something else had woken up. It opened its eyes. It was looking through Katie's eyes ... it was intoxicated with joy." At that moment, she claims, the four questions appeared in her consciousness.

What is it that's born every minute? ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2008 10:17PM by helpme2times.