The RR.com Message Board is like Motel Six for Those in Recovery

This is strictly speculation on my part--Corboy.)

Ive often wondered whether some gurus or groups have been clever enough to figure that one way to foster loyalty toward them while inculcating fear and hatred of of RR.com is to persuade key members to troll on RR.com, incur hostility and then get banned.

For awhile, that banned member would be cheered as a Great Hero within his or her organization, take pride in being Banned by RR.com. Until the guru or group get bored and find a new favorite. THen, the sacrifices made and the abuse endured on the RR.com board is forgotten and person X is forgotten or demoted.

IF he or she leaves, that person may feel after leaving that group, feel afraid to go to RR.com fearing they've made themselves unwelcome forever.

If some group is clever enough to get its members to troll and get banned, this would be a brilliant way to keep former members afraid of the very entity that could someday day give much needed support and validation--and the insights such member could contribute will never be shared.

Just in case my paranoid scenario is true, (I saw Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy on TV decades ago and it affected me)..If you ever decide to leave that organization and put your trolling days behind you, you are always free to return here.

If you have any worries,, you can have a private and candid discussion with the moderator.

As they say at Motel Six, we'll keep the light on for you, any time you are ready to settle down, get curious and want to learn more about the organization you once, in all sincerity trolled for...and no longer wish to troll for.

Anyone who shows up and tries to trash their hotel room...Motel Six doesnt like that.

But once, later on, youve put your wild ways behind you, and want to return..and are ready to be friendly and kind to our other guests, and its welcome.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 12:38AM by corboy.

Note on Daphne: Read the earlier message here. The last two are essentially rehashes of the first one.

[forum.culteducation.com]

And in this first one, we are pathologised for 'getting worked up' and then the suggestion is made, why not get worked up over other abusive entities,
such as the LDS?

Well this is discussed elsewhere on the message board.

And in this earlier thread D mentioned taking that 9 day workshop this time out of *curiosity* rather than 'concern*--still one has to pay a lot of money and take NINE days out of one's life. How many of us can afford to lose even 7 days income for that?

Here is the full text of D's June 24th article for those who want to note the trends and similarities between the two that suddenly got posted here in the past coupla days"

I went to a Byron Katie 9 day program out of curiosity. I am not a follower of her or anyone else, she is not a guru. Yes, there were some there who elevated her, very few, why is that Byron Katie’s fault? She didn’t encourage them. Nobody with her organization led any rounds of applause for her or set her apart in any way.
Most people were looking for a way to challenge their thoughts, which they got.

That included challenging their thoughts about Byron Katie and her message. There was no coercion, no requirement to do anything. She suggested people give up their addictions while they were there, cell phones, tobacco, caffeine. There was no requirement to do so. I drank my Starbucks in the meeting everyday. Nobody bugged me.

Everyone was an adult. They came on their own, paid their own way, no one was asked for a donation, of time or money or possessions. There was nothing offered to her, I was at the entire meeting.

If you want to get worked up about something, get worked up about churches telling children they will suffer in hell if they don’t follow some book. That’s child abuse pure and simple. Get worked up about Mormons who want to justify pedophilia via polygamy.

Byron Katie teaches just the opposite of anything cult, it’s about critically examining what you think about. **

Everyone who runs a course isn’t trying to start a cult. No one has contacted me since my participation, not a single e-mail asking for anything, no phone calls, nothing.
If she running a cult, she’s not doing a very good job of it. (end of Daphne's quote)

D wrote: "Byron Katie teaches just the opposite of anything cult, it’s about critically examining what you think about. "

So why should be be such an affront for one single website like RR.com to have a thread where BK's ideas and methods are critically discussed.

If she's genuinely teaching critical thought of everything, then our presence as a small group discussing her work should not be any source of anxiety, whatsoever...eh?

Daphne is being a very poor representative of the work. She is very much "in our business".

But that's probably because this new age "taking complete responsibility" b.s. is impossible to stick to.

Daphne says, "You have to do the work."

Is that true?

Thank the gods, NO.

Quote
Daphne
Byron Katie is as advertised. Yoiu have to do the work. She in no way encourages anyone to depend on her, she specifically steers away from that. I went to a nine day seminar. I was curious to see if there was any of the stuff you and others seem to be concerned about. She worked her axx off the entire time, she challenged people to do their work, take care of their business and stay the heck out of other's. Everytime I read a knock on Katie, it's from someone who never did anything but glance through a book and then didn't want to follow the suggestions. People don't like Katie's work because it doesn't allow them to blame other people for their neuroses, their depressions, their anxieties.
In fact, if you follow her four questions and turnarounds, really did it, it would be impossible for you to to turn her into a guru or cult whatever. You would be too busy taking complete responsibility for yourself, which of course would leave you without your lame excuses for your behavior. Of course, your excuses guarantee your continued suffering, that is a choice you can make.

Furthermore...

According to the principle of the turnaround, we "should" be doing exactly as we are doing here.

:-)

This poster is either not being honest, or is perhaps dangerously naive. (notice how they took the one word "make" and ignored the words about "Influence", to distract.

On the most banal level, salespeople have dozens of techniques to Influence your beliefs to buy their products. Dozens of books on that subject.

Advanced Salespeople are much better, and literally do as I have described, they have complete COURSES which teach that.

In cults, they have the LOVE-BOMB technique, which goal is EXACTLY what I have said. (Carol Skolnick pre-frames people for that).

In NLP and modern hypnosis, they also have PRECISE TECHNIQUES to ENGINEER beliefs into people.
THAT IS A FACT. That is not an opinion. Its a clear FACT. Look at the literature.
Richard Bandler has a book out called PERSUASION ENGINEERING.
Robert Dilts has techniques called "Sleight of Mouth". One could list 100 examples.

People better WAKE-UP and get their heads out of the Love-Bomb.
Read the books below.
And please stop the endless lies, thanks. (see below)

[thepiratebay.org]
(Library of NLP)

NLP Hypnosis Influence Persuasion patterns
[www.mininova.org]

NLP Hypnosis Influence Persuasion patterns
A Robbins - The Power To Influence (Sales Mastery).pdf (7.04 megabyte)
Bandler - Tranceformations 17pp - book summary.pdf (73.17 kilobyte)
Bandler_La Valle_Milton Patterns.doc (26.5 kilobyte)
Charles Faulkner - Creating Irresistible Influence.pdf (387.76 kilobyte)
Donald Moine - 1990_six tapes - summary.pdf (1.2 megabyte)
Donald Moine - 6 audiotapes_Summary page 01.doc (22 kilobyte)
Donald Moine - Unlim Selling Power - Ocred.pdf (10.68 megabyte)
Donald Moine - What it Takes SuperSellers.pdf (6.39 megabyte)
Donald Moine_ OCR Unl Selling Power_manual.pdf (102.82 kilobyte)
Donald Moine_Unl Selling Power_179 pages OCR.doc (1.01 megabyte)
Focus Directing Questions.doc (43 kilobyte)
Gaining compliance_Gass&SeiterCh11.doc (114.5 kilobyte)
Igor Ledochowski - Deep Trance Training - contents.pdf (2.38 megabyte)
Igor Ledochowski - Deep Trance Training Manual Vol 1.pdf (31.75 megabyte)
Igor Ledochowski - Street Hypnosis (Mentalism Course Notes).pdf (339.69 kilobyte)
Igor Ledochowski - ad for Conversational_Hypnosis.pdf (282.86 kilobyte)
James Prochaska Five Stages of Change_overview.txt (6.81 kilobyte)
John Overdurf _Training Trances_summary.doc (34.5 kilobyte)
John Overdurf and J Siverthorn - Training Trances_OCR.pdf (543.37 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - Influencial Spinning.pdf (91.36 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - Magical Objection Mastery.doc (368.5 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - Magical Objection Mastery.pdf (613.12 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - Max Persuasion 2000.pdf (190.31 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - Sales Techniques (7 Pages).doc (69 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - The Dark Side Manual.pdf (156 kilobyte)
Kenrick Cleveland - The Dark Side Transcript.pdf (123.56 kilobyte)
Kevin Hogan - Get.Anyone.to.Say.Yes.in.8.Minutes.or.Less.pdf (2.35 megabyte)
Kevin Hogan - The Psychology Of Pers How To Persuade Others.pdf (14.28 megabyte)
L Michael Hall - Mindlines.pdf (1.38 megabyte)
L Michael Hall - Sourcebook of Magic.pdf (1.14 megabyte)
L. Michael Hall - Mind-Lines - Lines for Changing Minds (2nd Edn).pdf (1.37 megabyte)
L. Michael Hall - MindLines Book_ summary on Reframing.doc (58.5 kilobyte)
Larry McLauchlin - Adv Lang Patterns ,58.pdf (609.42 kilobyte)
Larry McLauchlin_ Adv Lang Patterns Mastery (1).doc (434.5 kilobyte)
Marshall Sylver - Hypnotic Selling manual.pdf (727.56 kilobyte)
Maximum Influence The12 Universal Laws of Power Persuasion.pdf (1.67 megabyte)
Michael J. Brooks _Power Of Business Rapport.doc (50 kilobyte)
Milton Erickson by Sidney Rosen - My Voice Will Go With You _The Teaching Tales Of .pdf (2.48 megabyte)
Milton Model and hypn patterns_Apr 2001.pdf (287.08 kilobyte)
Milton Model misc notes_Apr 2001 (8).pdf (328.96 kilobyte)
Milton NLP Model of Hypn.doc (55 kilobyte)
Moine_1990_6 audiotapes.pdf (1.17 megabyte)
NLP Workbook -Joseph o'connor.pdf (21.31 megabyte)
NP WorkBook by Joseph O'connor Excellent OCR.pdf (1.95 megabyte)
Paul Mckenna - The Secret Language Of Influence - Manual.pdf (429.92 kilobyte)
Qualifiers_Softeners phrases.doc (19.5 kilobyte)
Ray Hyman _Cold Reading.doc (83.5 kilobyte)
Rex Sykes - Ultimate Nlp Home Study Course.pdf (365.45 kilobyte)
Robert B. Cialdini - Influence_ the 7 Compliance Triggers.doc (22.5 kilobyte)
Robert Cialdini - Harnessing The Science Of Persuasion.pdf (996.32 kilobyte)
Robert Cialdini - Influence - Science and Practice, 4th ed1.pdf (2.26 megabyte)
Robert Greene, The Art of Sed.pdf (3.2 megabyte)
Ross Jeffries - language patterns FlashCards.doc (60 kilobyte)
Salad Consulting Ltd - Ericksonian Hypnosis Card Deck.pdf (535.87 kilobyte)
Salad Consulting Ltd - Irresistible Influence Card Deck.pdf (698.24 kilobyte)
Shelle R Charvet - Words that Change Minds - the L of Influence.pdf (6.8 megabyte)
Tad James - Ericksonian Manual.pdf (491.18 kilobyte)
Tad James - Hypn - Deep Trance Phenomena Ocr.pdf (5.76 megabyte)
Tad James - Hypnosis Practitioner - Manual.pdf (233.4 kilobyte)
Tad James - NLP Master Practitioner - Manual.doc (7.54 megabyte)
Tad James - NLP Master Practitioner - Manual.pdf (3.07 megabyte)
Tad James - NLP-Ericksonian Manual.pdf (487.67 kilobyte)
Tom Hopkins_Official Guide to Success_summary.pdf (90.3 kilobyte)
Zebu Milton_model_zebu cards_2007.pdf (655.79 kilobyte)
Zebu The Hypn Language Card Game FlashCards.pdf (366.17 kilobyte)
Zebu_52 cards_22pp (1992).pdf (5.44 megabyte)
Zebu_Robert Anue_ card deck.pdf (273.08 kilobyte)
pdf hypn Kevin Hogan - Hypnosis.pdf (3.68 megabyte)
pua - Evil Pattern - The Door.rtf (4.37 kilobyte)
pua - Forbidden Pattern - The Gemini.rtf (3.06 kilobyte)
pua - Forbidden Pattern - The Shadow and The Rising Sun.rtf (3.43 kilobyte)
pua - L Systems Routine Manual.pdf (1.98 megabyte)
pua - October Man pattern.rtf (5.05 kilobyte)
pua - theGuruDev - Sed Lang Patterns (SS Quick Reference).pdf (588.75 kilobyte)

Quote
Daphne
Anticult said: "They taught people how to make the client think you are their best friend, with very specific techniques. (yes, they are sociopathic).
And Byron Katie takes that just one step further, she makes you BELIEVE that she is your BEST FRIEND in the world, and even that you LOVE her. he engineers your Love right into her system, its all there in black and white, very clearly if one is looking for it. She literally "fuses" with you."

Makes you believe? She MAKES you believe. NO one can 'make you believe' anything without your permission. Get a grip.

also, it would be wonderful if only using gentle and loving language was enough to deal with this material. Sadly it isn't. So its great to use gentle and loving language when possible.

On the other hand, it does appear that using blunt, realistic and harsh language at times is the best way to cut through the mountain of horseshit. Otherwise, one can get lost in the mountain of horseshit for literally years. But if one can see quickly what is going on, and call horseshit horseshit, things flow much more easily.
There is a reason Byron Katie uses "fluffy" language, and a good antidote is to counteract that.


Byron Katie is one of the worlds experts in the skills discussed in the books in the post above, and she has more skills than that. She is actually more skilled than most of them, and smarter than them, in several ways.

1) Targets: Katie has chosen an audience that is easily Love-Bombed and have little or no experience in the hard-arts of sales, like above. She would not succeed with a more hard-nosed target audience. But she seems to have chosen really nice people, and probably way too trusting people, as her audience. They seem to just get caught up in their own feelings and experience, and don't seem to look at the process. 99% of these folks would not even read the contracts they are forced to sign by Byron Katie before attending a seminar. (attend a sales training, and everyone reads every single word in the contract!!)

2) SAVANT: Byron Katie has made it seem like she is a type of Idiot-Savant, or Savant as its now known. She says....hey a giant cockroach bit me on my toe and I lost all my memories...so come to my seminars.
If she is ever challenged by a journalist over facts, she will just say something like...I just get up everyday and breathe and talk, that's all I do...after the giant Magical cockroach bit me I lost all my memories so if you say I am lying then you must be right...(etc). She can bluff her way out of almost anything using that method. That is very very smart, most of those guys try to make themselves out to be genuises. Of course, Katie gets to act like she is a genius when she wants, and play dumb when she wants. She may have gotten that from Milton Erickson, and then just took it further and subtracted any Ethics from the process.

LOSING THE MOON:
In her book LOSING THE MOON, Byron Katie says she wants to get people to the point where they literally "lose the moon", as in, get to the point where they can no longer even believe a moon exists. Well, it seems she did it. Because the FACTS of her persuasion methods are as clear as the moon in the sky at night, but some of those in the Katie-Trance can't see the moon anymore...its right there in the sky...

This ties into her cosmology of solipsism, where things only exist if you think they do.
This seems to be why BK guys like Steven Sashen can say things that are the opposite to eachother, which he does constantly. This seems to stem from the Byron Katie cosmology where reality does not exist, its just Belief Systems BS, so you can literally say anything.

So folks would be wise to seperate things out a bit.
Seperate out the philosophical concepts
...from the emotional experiences.

And also separate out the sales techniques, and the LGAT seminars techniques. If you cannot see any techniques, then read some of the books mentioned above, and also read up about LGAT seminars on the internet.

Personally, I would love if a Byron Katie professional came here, anonymously, and was even somewhat honest. And talked about how they can rationalize all of the advanced sales techniques being used, modern hypnosis, etc.
Of course, they have been trained to not talk about anything, same as the Landmark Forum, and every other LGAT, as if you know the techniques, they don't work very well.

So it seems that Byron Katie folks fall into 2 main groups...a large group of regular decent folks who have "lost the moon" due to the Byron Katie methods.

The other group is the small group of professionals who make the moon vanish...(if you are in a deep hypnotic state, using a "negative hallucination" suggestion they can LITERALLY make the moon disappear from your consciousness) and that metaphor is what they are doing in general to people
...the BK Pro's know all the Tech, they have to to make it work. After a few years they see the hypocrisy, they see the same people coming back over and over and not getting any better. But hey, its a good living.

Its going to take time for regular decent folks to be able to see what is going on.
But it would be wonderful for a BK Pro to come somewhat clean and talk about even some of the techniques they are using, or explain how they are not using them. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a blue moon to appear...

so I INVITE you to consider having a peek at the woman behind the curtain in the Land of Oz...who is hiding the moon in plain sight. That is quite a magic trick, to make the moon vanish out of the sky...only one way to do that...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 10:57AM by The Anticult.

ok, so I know these guys who are totally Enlightened Beings...like seriously.
I know this, as they are always saying such deep weird things that make no sense, and they smoke doobies constantly, and drop E-XTC on the weekends, and do 'shrooms while riding rollercoasters...

Anyways, recently I have been telling them all about this amazing new Enlightened Being, named Byron Katie, and her deep connection with roaches. (not the weed roach, the hive insect cockroach).
Well, this one guy was totally wasted...uh I mean...Enlightened on E-XTC, and 'shrooms...and weed...and energy drinks...and he passed out for 4 hours behind a convenience store. He said while he was in that Enlightened State he saw a giant cockroach rise up, take the head of Byron Katie, and scream..."why art thou persecuting me". Then giant Roach then bit him in the genital area...he says he has a mark there, I will take his word for it.

So I don't know what this means...but perhaps there is a message in there for us, if only we could hear it?
It reminds one of Carl Jung's story of the Scarab beetle...
or maybe from now on everytime we see Katie's picture it will cue the image of a giant cockroach with her head on it?
its all such a deep mystery...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 12:10PM by The Anticult.

Quote
Daphne
Byron Katie is as advertised.

I think that says a lot, Daphne stating, "Byron Katie is as advertised."

Advertised. Marketed. Sold.

From the L.A. Times article on Byron Katie, "How A Self-Help Guru is Born," which I highly recommend people to read:

Andy Bernstein, director of Byron Katie International, is a bit more focused than his boss, who doesn't seek out forums for sharing The Work. "I'm pushing it," Bernstein says. "We don't just answer phone calls. It's not as passive as it seems. We have a product: four questions, and a spokesperson: Katie. It moves the way any product moves, whether it's Nike sneakers or anything else."

Hey, for anyone who is looking for tickets for sale on Craigslist or Ebay for Byron Katie's upcoming events in Europe (Amsterdam, Stuttgart, Bad Neuenahr)... PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING POSTS FIRST!!

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53392#msg-53392]Byron Katie - Strong Concerns[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53402#msg-53402]Byron Katie's School and Turnaround House[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53514#msg-53514]Surrendering Personal Property to Byron Katie[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53507#msg-53507]Byron Katie's School - A Family Member's Perspective[/url]]

Event Description:
The School For The Work
July 25 - August 3, 2008
Dorint Parkhotel
Hardtstrasse 2a / Am Dahliengarten
D-5374 Bad Neuenahr - Ahrweiler
Germany
Tuition: $3,600 (if early, otherwise it is $4,600)
Room and board, double occupancy: an additional 950 Euro

A question to ask yourself... Why does it cost so much to do The Work in person with Byron Katie, and why the strict cancellation policy?

Quote

All cancellations must be submitted in writing. If your cancellation is received nine (9) or more days in advance of the School, your tuition and room and board costs will be refunded less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you cancel eight (8) days or less in advance of the School, your tuition will be refunded less room and board costs we must pay the hotel and less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or if you leave The School early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.

Another question to ask yourself... Are you willing to sign a legal disclaimer before doing The Work with Byron Katie? You are asked to sign a disclaimer before participating in Byron Katie's Hotline, and there are reports that you must sign one just before starting The School. Why would that be necessary?

Quote

Disaimer of Liability By using The Work Hotline, you assume all risks associated with calling the volunteer Facilitators. BKI shall not, in any event, be liable for any actions taken on the part of the caller or Facilitator during or after the use of this Hotline. Each individual caller and Facilitator is fully responsible for all interactions that take place between the two parties. BKI is not responsible for, nor does it endorse, any interaction between the two parties and assumes no liability for or related to those interactions.

There are also reports that people have been duped into giving up valuable possessions to Byron Katie on the last day of The School -- such as wedding rings and heirlooms. One couple is said to have surrendered approx. $100,000 IN JEWELRY.

PLEASE be a discerning consumer and learn whatever you can about what REALLY goes on in Byron Katie's School and other events, before surrendering your precious mind (and possessions) to "The Work".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 09:08PM by helpme2times.

Note: here is another issue.

If you fly from the US to Germany, you're flying through a bunch of time zones.

Our friend 'Daphne' says people taking these BK events are 'adults'.

Well, recall when you were in a foreign country. You were in some ways back to childhood, less autonomous. You have to ask the locals lots of questions--where is the bathroom, how to get from Point A to Point B?

If you are on a tour, you are dependent on your tour guides to know the directions, and you shift a great deal of trust to them and become a bit less autonomous.

If you're worn out from a trans continental flight, you are really likely to want to trust someone. (What do you want to bet that BK organizers will be much better rested than you will be, when you arrive--UNLESS YOU ARE GIVEN EXTRA DAYS TO ACCLIMATE?

So...that is another question--will participants to be given the necessary number of days to adjust to the time zone difference before participating in that event, eh?

(google references to sleep disruption as discussed on RR.com)

[www.google.com]

And how easily can someone decide to leave an event is in a foreign country and they decide they dont like it and wish to leave?

Participants who do not speak German or are unfamiliar with Germany might feel reluctant to leave, should they decide such an event is not to their liking, for they would find themselves in a city or town--and country where there is a language barrier. At least in the US, one can leave, hail a cab, and take it from there.

Final note to potential participants

Another question for potential participants: Are you allowed to keep control of your cell phone, money and passport? You need all these to retain adult
autonomy in case you decide to leave and phone a cab and board a flight home. Without these, adult autonomy is gone.

Sunday-Musing on Archetypes

AntiCult wrote:

"It reminds one of Carl Jung's story of the Scarab beetle...
or maybe from now on everytime we see Katie's picture it will cue the image of a giant cockroach with her head on it?
its all such a deep mystery..."

Ganesha is the son of Shiva in the Hindu panel of god-forms. Ganesha has
an elephant head, is regarded as a god of overcoming obstacles, though some warn that he has some of the tricky features of Shiva and may put obstacles in your path if you need them to grow. However, many Hindu business people like to have a statue of Ganesha and make offerings--for in business you gotta overcome obstacles.

Here is the interesting part---each Indian god or goddess has what is known as a vehicle...a corresponding symbol, often an animal mascot.

Ganesha has a rat or mouse as his vehicle. One commentary claims that G has two wives, Success and Prosperity.

[www.angelfire.com]

You have be desperately poor not to have anything in the house that would attract rats. And...ratties overcome obstacles. They gnaw through most hard surfaces, climb and jump and once they find a place hospitable, can eat anything--even books.

Well, roaches are similar...it would be a poor place that didnt attract roaches and they too can get through even the tiniest crevice.

As a kid, I heard some adults refer to lunch wagons as 'roach coaches.'

[mcclungmuseum.utk.edu]

Scarab beetles were honored in Egyptian mythology as it was supposed that a giant scarab rolled the sun across the sky.

In actual life, the Egyptian scarab rolls dung (aka shit, merde) into a ball, hides its eggs in it. The eggs hatch, the larvae eat the nutrient rich dung, then emerge as adults.

[mcclungmuseum.utk.edu]

In short, the beautiful scarab beetle eats shit and thrives.

But human beings are not insects.

To thrive, we need a far, far better diet than dung or brain food that has been fried short order by cooks not trained or licensed to be clinicians. licenses.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2008 10:13PM by corboy.