Didn't Paramahansa Yogananda use that story?
The "story" thing is very interesting.

Milton Erickson used ideas from mythology, and tribal myths, parables, etc. He ws then able to refine the language, and put them in a modern context, and get a similar result.
So the use of Teaching Stories and parables is ancient.
But then they modernized it into almost Dick & Jane stories to make them more effective. It started out being used in hypnotherapy to help people.

Then the LGAT salespeople got ahold of it, and changed it into something else, about selling people stuff, not healing their psyche.

But that drowning story I think is an ancient Hindu story?
It could also be used to create "transference" to the Guru. After all, if you need God like their air you breathe, and the Guru is there to show you God, then you need the Guru as much as the air you breathe.

In modern NLP, they show people exactly how to elicit the submodalities of that type of "need" and then INSTALL it in people's brains in minutes. That started in the 1980's. Its all written up in the NLP books on submodailites...as in...."HOW TO CREATE A COMPULSION".

Search Google for the words....

NLP Compulsion

(they just reverse the method from the Compulsion Blowout, and install it)
They can figure out exactly how to make you NEED them and their product as much as AIR to breathe, using submodalities. (huge subject that requires study in NLP).
Byron Katie actually does this in her language patterns and Transference methods, she fuses with people in their minds like she is the God, and the water too, and the Guru. She takes it one step farther, even.

Quote
solea13
There is so much information on this thread. I am still thinking about Ericksonian Hypnosis and 'Teaching Stories'.

My guru used Teaching Stories to a certain extent. We all listened to, read and studied these stories to understand as much as possible about our teachings. I am wondering to what extent these teaching stories may have had embedded messages as described with Byron Katie.

Here is one example:

A disciple asked his Master: "How can I be one with God?"

The Master did not reply but led the young disciple into the middle of the water in silence. Then all of a sudden, he pushed him down and held himunderwater .

After a long wait, the Master pulled him out and asked him calmly: "When you were underwater, what were you thinking of?"

"Why Master, at that moment I was only craving for some air to breathe."

The Master the said: "You see son, only when you think of God with as much fervor as you craved the air above when you were underwater, only then will you be one with God."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 04:51AM by The Anticult.

Gangaji has been mentioned a couple of times today... Here is but one mention of her and the scandal that erupted a couple of years or so ago in her community:

[[url=http://aubreypub.typepad.com/r_blog/2006/10/more_on_gangaji.html]More on Gangaji and Eli Jaxon-Bear[/url]]

I don't know where that story originates from, it's not referenced in my literature here. If anyone here has heard that story being used elsewhere or knows its origin, I'd like to hear from you.

It seems like it might be a Hindu or Buddhist story that was used to teach disicples. The possibility of transference is there, isn't it? ... promoting dependency on the Guru. That is a central tenet of Advaita, from what I read on Wikipedia: You must have a Guru to develop spiritually.

'Advaita' kept the Guru business thriving I suppose :) ... and still does.

The key is in whether these stories are being used to help heal the mind or instead to control or manipluate a person? An old teaching story like this could be used as a tool to help, I suppose ... or in the wrong hands and in a certain context it could be used as a tool to control people's minds.

Verrry interesting.

PS: How come I can't find books by Milton Erickson at the library? Are they mostly out of print?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 08:31AM by solea13.

as far as I know he didn't write any books, per se. He wrote a ton of academic papers, which are contained in various places, mostly in a series of books by Ernest Rossi.

Try this book, its very accessible.

My Voice Will Go With You (The Teaching Tales of Milton H.Erickscon) by Sidney Rosen.

or..
TRANCE-formations by Richard Bandler and John Grinder.

Try a general word search at the library using the name "Milton Erickson" as that will get books about him, as most books were written by others about him.


Lastly, not to endorse this torrent link, but all those books and almost every NLP, hypnosis, persuasion, books are up on the torrent networks these days.

[thepiratebay.org]

also, search google for these two words...

Torrent NLP

Quote
solea13
PS: How come I can't find books by Milton Erickson at the library? Are they mostly out of print?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 10:31AM by The Anticult.

So there is Papaji...
is there Mammaji?
Babyji?
Its like the 3 little bears or whatever.

Gangaji seems to have done all these things, including EST Erhard Seminar Training, and its interesting how she was mentioned a lot in the Byron Katie book Losing The Moon. You never hear BK mention her anymore. (falling out?)
They are the same age, I bet there is something there. Both have facelifts, slimey hubbies who are their managers...sexual affairs....but BK has hinted she might be fine with hubby Tomcatting around a bit, if BK approved of it. (she said it in one of her books, in the form of a double-negative).

These folks are like the New Age Tammy Faye Baker, and so many people take them seriously...its sad.
Why are all the Enlightened Ones having sex with their students, and living like Kings while pissing away all of the "charity" money?

Joking aside, its too bad people can't just do a small local free spiritual-philosophical practice, maybe have a few friends to discuss with, then play frisbee and be a human?
Could you imagine? Small local philo-spiritual groups that had no leader, democratically operated in an open fashion, which are not about making millions?

The problems in every single case come from the greedy Guru's. Everytime.
Its a Darwinian selection process, the most ruthless and greedy Gurus rise to the top as they don't let anything stand in their way.

The Anticultagi



quote helpme2times]Gangaji has been mentioned a couple of times today... Here is but one mention of her and the scandal that erupted a couple of years or so ago in her community:

[[url=http://aubreypub.typepad.com/r_blog/2006/10/more_on_gangaji.html]More on Gangaji and Eli Jaxon-Bear[/url]][/quote]

solea...

I responded in the other thread about Anxiety, but wanted to drop it in here too, to add some positivity too. There are good things out there too.

For Anxiety, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has been proven in hundreds of studies to work for many people. The book below is really for all aspects of CBT.
anyway, this book is in most libraries....no cults, no New Age brain scans, no Gurus, not full of lies.

Its actually one of the ideal antidotes to the Byron Katie style of delusional detachment and dishonesty. Byron Katie's entire system is a series of Cognitive Distortions, which is explained in this book.
This book I recommend 100%, as its so user friendly.

When Panic Attacks by Dr. David Burns.
[www.amazon.com]

...as far as the Guru thing, I am starting to really believe the only way to develop spiritually is to NOT have a Guru!
Seriously.
I love that old phrase..."If you meet the Buddha on the road...kill him".

Like in music, people can have good Teachers...but personally, I think this Guru Devotion thing just creates problems.
It stops philosophical development, as people get dependent, like a child. Kids gotta grow up, move out, and become adults.
The more I research, the less I see any value in a "Guru" Only harm and abuse come from it.

Of course, Guru's would disagree...plumbers also think we need more union plumbers...
;-)
Teachers are fantastic, but I can't think of any reason for a "Guru" or even the modern "Anti-Guru" which is just a Guru pretending to not be one...like old Byron Katie.


Here are links to that water-god-air story...

[users.rider.edu]

[abhachoo.blogspot.com]

[www.jewishaz.com]

Quote
solea13
I don't know where that story originates from, it's not referenced in my literature here. If anyone here has heard that story being used elsewhere or knows its origin, I'd like to hear from you.

It seems like it might be a Hindu or Buddhist story that was used to teach disicples. The possibility of transference is there, isn't it? ... promoting dependency on the Guru. That is a central tenet of Advaita, from what I read on Wikipedia: You must have a Guru to develop spiritually.

'Advaita' kept the Guru business thriving I suppose :) ... and still does.

So that story is used a lot. Thanks Anticult! And I just saw your other post about Anxiety with the link. I ordered the Feeling Good Handbook from Amazon too. I appreciate any sensible approach that will encourage me to think and feel for myself and not force me to worship someone anyone as a living God. Even if they are a Living God. Hahaha. How blasphemous.

There should be a warning label, like on the side of a pack of cigarettes: 'DANGER: HAVING A GURU COULD CAUSE SERIOUS HAZARDS TO YOUR PHYSICAL HEALTH, AS WELL AS YOUR EMOTIONAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL & SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT!"

Yes, your physical health too because more than likely, your Guru will STRONGLY discourage you from seeking medical attention when you need it. Mine did.

Then there is the host of psychological problems that can be caused (which I have also experienced) such as floating, depression, phobia indoctrination, etc. etc.

You come out on the other side with reduced ability to think critically and function normally in society, not to mention greif over missed opportunities for love, education and career.

There should be disclaimers, there should be warnings, there should be full disclosure. People should be allowed to know what the heck they are getting themselves into when they start studying with anyone who declares him or herself a 'Living Master'.

There. That's my rant fot the day. Thanks for letting me share ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 10:29PM by solea13.

I remember hearing stories about Milarepa and Marpa, the former being a great Tibetan Buddhist master who was a student of the latter. In these stories the latter would always be crazily abusive to the former. I could never get how I was supposed to find this inspiring for my own spiritual practice.

Solea, your rants are excellent. Unlike these fake culty new agey philosophies, I think most psychologists would agree that getting quite angry and pissed off is part of the healing process. (that is different than excessive Raging or hatred, which needs to be managed carefully).
My pet theory is its about getting our healthy "boundaries" back again.

I cannot think of any reason to worship or excessively idolize any human being for any reason at any time.
We are all just fallible mortals down here.
And as we can see, the so-called Guru's, especially the famous one's are usually 10x more screwed up than any average person. They are often liars and hypocrites.
Some are even psychopaths.

I do think "Guru's" are unhealthy, and dangerous, and create dependence.

I think its also just as important, maybe more so, for people to look for the "Invisible Guru's".
It seems some blogs that criticize Gurus focus only on the worst criminal Guru's whom wear robes and say they are God while raping and stealing.

But there are Gurus, who wear pantsuits and sweaterss, smile, hug, and say they are NOT God, and tell you they are NOT your Guru.
The amazing thing is that many of these ones, are MORE controlling, more devious than the guy in the robe.
These "invisible Guru's" often even call themselves Anti-Gurus, and preach against Gurus.
Yet at the same time, they have massive LGAT seminar systems, and make millions of dollars a month being the Guru, while saying they are not the Guru, their system is the GURU SYSTEM, no matter what they say or write.
These same people run dozens and hundreds of techniques on "soccer moms" who have no idea of what is happening to them. They are doing "brainwashing" methods on "soccer moms" and not many people even know it.
They do hypnosis, and when you ask them if they do it, they laugh and say they are dehypnotizing people. They turn everything around. They are master salespeople, so good, no one can see it.

Massive evidence shows Byron Katie, for example, is one of these new Guru's. She can get people to hand over their wedding rings to her...that is very deep.
And these days there are many others, and it seems most people can't see what they are doing, as they don't have the training.

But public education should help.
We all get conned at some point, but if we can learn what happened, hopefully it won't happen again.

But I really believe the Invisible Guru's who say they are Anti-Gurus are more dangerous, as its less obvious. We need some scholars to write some books explaining how this works, and more TV reports, etc. the public seems to have almost no idea of what is going on.

Quote
solea13
So that story is used a lot. Thanks Anticult! And I just saw your other post about Anxiety with the link. I ordered the Feeling Good Handbook from Amazon too. I appreciate any sensible approach that will encourage me to think and feel for myself and not force me to worship someone anyone as a living God. Even if they are a Living God. Hahaha. How blasphemous.

There should be a warning label, like on the side of a pack of cigarettes: 'DANGER: HAVING A GURU COULD CAUSE SERIOUS HAZARDS TO YOUR PHYSICAL HEALTH, AS WELL AS YOUR EMOTIONAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL & SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT!"

Yes, your physical health too because more than likely, your Guru will STRONGLY discourage you from seeking medical attention when you need it. Mine did.

Then there is the host of psychological problems that can be caused (which I have also experienced) such as floating, depression, phobia indoctrination, etc. etc.

You come out on the other side with reduced ability to think critically and function normally in society, not to mention greif over missed opportunities for love, education and career.

There should be disclaimers, there should be warnings, there should be full disclosure. People should be allowed to know what the heck they are getting themselves into when they start studying with anyone who declares him or herself a 'Living Master'.

There. That's my rant fot the day. Thanks for letting me share ...