Also, in some divorces, money gets freed up and turns liquid.

Cough.

one other thing...doing this type of cultic investigation is very tricky, and can trigger very strong EMOTIONS in people.

My theory for this, is that people like Byron Katie, and many others, are literally trying to RE-ENGINEER THEIR REALITY in people's brains-minds. Literally.

Now they use the most powerful techniques on earth to do this, in an almost invisible way, using very tricky and dishonest methods, all the way from sales techniques, up to forms of "brainwashing".

They also have the added New Age trick of reverse-shaming.
If a person points out their LIES, they want them to feel guilty for doing it.
If I get angry at them for lying to me, and trying to con me, then they want the subject feel guilt for getting angry at those methods. (of course when Gurus rage at their followers, that is Drunken Crazy Wisdom...)

I think its healthy to have a very very powerful Assertive response to these dishonest tactics. Sometimes the response has to be very powerful due to the deep techniques being used.
Over the years, we can develop very powerful and healthy boundaries, and healthy Anger seems to be what provides the energy for those boundaries.
Of course, Raging is not healthy, and we all can get into some internet flaming after a few coffees, etc.
But having extremely powerful psychological boundaries, seems to be a good way to stay free.
And in escaping from these cultic systems, it does seem that a healthy Anger-Disgust at the perpetrator is part of the process of healing.
Notice how this is the opposite to the Byron Katie New Agey Love-Bomb method, where she flips it around on you.

It does seem that a powerful and even very angry response to this level of "Mind Control" is part of the healing process.
And if the New Age Mind-Control Guru Con-Artists don't like it, they can Fuck Off.
:-)

I think Frank Zappa said it best....

[davemcnally.co.uk]
COSMIK DEBRIS by Frank Zappa

The mystery man came over
And he said "I'm outta sight!"
He said for a nominal service charge
I could reach nirvana tonight
If I was ready, willing and able
To pay him his regular fee
He would drop all the rest of
His pressing affairs and devote
His attention to me

But I said "Look here brother
who you jiving with that cosmik debris?
Now who you jiving with that cosmik debris?
Look here brother, don't waste your time on me"

The mystery man got nervous
And he fidget around a bit
He reached in the pocket of his mystery robe
And he whipped out a shaving kit
Now I thought it was a razor
And a can of foaming goo
But he told me right then when the top popped open
There was nothin' his box won't do
With the oil of Aphrodite, and the dust of the Grand Wazoo
He said "You might not believe this, little fella
But it'll cure your asthma too"

And I said "Look here brother
Who you jiving with that cosmik debris?
Now what kind of a guru are you, anyway?
Look here brother, don't waste your time on me"
*(Don't waste your time)*

"I've got troubles of my own", I said
"And you can't help me out
So, take your meditations and your preparations
And ram it up your snout!"
"But I got the crystal ball", he said
And held it to the ligh
So I snatched it, all away from him
And I showed him how to do it right

I wrapped a newspaper 'round my head
So I looked like I was deep
I said some mumbo-jumbo, then
I told him he was going to sleep
I robbed his rings and pocketwatch
And everything else I found
I had that sucker hypnotized
He couldn't even make a sound
I proceeded to tell him his future, then
As long as he was hanging around
I said "The price of meat has just gone up
And your old lady has just gone down!"

And I said "Look here brother-who you
Jiving with that cosmik debris?
Now is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
Don't you know, you could make more money as a butcher?
So, don't waste your time on me"
Don't waste it, don't waste your time on me
*(Shante)*

Amen, brotha!

And thanks for the Zappa interlude. "Sheik Yerbouti"!

I think listening to Cosmik Debris by Zappa could qualify as therapy.
He literally debunks most of these Guru cons in one song.

I wonder who that Guru was?
Zappa was probably approached by a Guru when he was famous...who was the Guru to the other musicians? Sri Chinmoy was hooked in with some of those guys...

The "oil" sounds like the oil Sai Baba would apply to the penis chakra of young boys.

Zappa just hammered the guy in about 3 minutes flat.
"Instant Enlightenment" for a price...miracle healing...

Byron Katie is no different, just no robe or oils.

Carlos Santana was a Chinmoy follower. John "Mahavishnu" McLaughlin too. You may have something there.

Dear VC and others:

There are some topics that are intellectually fascinating, can be discussed and argued about forever, but cannot be solved. It will be a mere chasing after the wind, vanity of vanities.

Free will/determinism is one topic that has never been solved. .

Nonduality vs Dual nature of reality is another


Meme Theory is a fun toy for the mind, but its just an hypothesis, an interesting framework at present.

What is enlightenment is yet another topic that can be discussed and argued about endlessly.

Entrepreneurs can use these topics as brain candy to get us distracted. We feel clever and special pondering this stuff--and while our attention is given to these clever questions, we are diverted from examining the stuff that would really set us free...the sales tactics, the room set up, sleep deprivation. To repeat, that Manipulating the Room thread attracted an astounding number of troll attacks. And yet, its one that many visitors to RR.com tend to let drop...reading it reminds us of our vulnerability to covert manipulation, which seems to be an affront to human vanity.

Its a reminder that though subjectively we feel unique, feel special, that our boundaries can be breachd and our hopes and dreams accessed by a very standardized set of techniques.

Its horrid but the grim truth is we can be manipulated into ecstacy by anyone who knows where our nerve endings are. We are all very creaturely underneath our varied appearances and educational levels.

But facing how manipulable we actuallyare, was for me, the most emancipatory thing Ive found.

Topics like free will are like trying to get to the final digit in the number Pi--22/7 its been calcuated to millions of digits and still, no one has ever rounded it off.

But...there are topics that are fruitful, such as investigating paper trials, Philip Zimbardo's Prison Experiment, the presence or absence of absence or presence of informed consent, and how 'spirituality' is being operated as a business these days.

And, we could look at the room set up thread? Rather than fretting about free will or determinism, look back at time spent with your guru and ask whether the room set up resembled in any way some or more of the features of the room set up described by Drew Kopp?

How much sleep were you allowed to get during the time when you made major decisions about the nature of reality and your relationships? Was it

For we are learning more and more these days about the impact of sleep deprivation--it can mess with our neurological hardware.

And, basic things like the difference between licensed professionals who state that they are responsible for preserving accurate records and safeguarding patient confidentiality (HIPAA) vs entities that require participants to sign away their right, as citizens, to sue for damages if they participate and later decide they have reason to consider that they incurred harm.

Instead of asking about free will or determinism or nonduality or what is enlightenment, ask...what are the documents I was asked to sign. Did a teacher or group that was telling me I was responsible for my life, telling me to release them from responsibility for what was to happen to me during the hours or days while I was in their room participating in one of their events?

Did I have a chance to decide whether I would consent to be filmed or recorded--or was I allowed to with-hold permission?

Instead of asking what is enlightenment, lets ask what kind of paperwork did I get to review and sign--or did I have time to read it before signing it...and was I given a copy to take home?

Instead of asking about the nature of reality is it dual or nondual, lets ask about something called the fiduciary relationship.

In a glossary at the end of their chapter on New Age Therapies (far more enlightening in this context than anything translated from Sanskrit or Japanese or Chinese), Margaret Thaler Singer and Abraham Nievod define
'Fiduciary' as follows:

Fiduciary--'In law, a specific type of relationship, oten defined by statute or case law. In many states, a fiduciary relationship is characterized as (1) being between individuals, with one of the individuals having greater education, training, experience and knowledge than the other; (2) based on the less knowledgeable individual placing his or her trust and confidence in the more knowledeable individual; (3) an agreement that the more knowledgeable individual wil provide services or act on behalf of the less knowledeable individual; and (4) based on the less knowledeable person relying on the more knowledeable person to provide either the needed services or to act on the other's behalf. Common fiduciary relationships are those between attorney and client, doctor and patient and accountant and client.'

(Lilienfeld Lynn and Lohr, Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology, pp 201-202) Guilford Press, 2003

For the sake of copiousness, I think it worth while to offer this morsel for our collective intellectual edification:

'Psychotherapy, from its earliest inception was intended as a method to assist persons to fucntion capably in the world, act responsibly as citizens, and participate fully in life's opportunities...Approaches designated (by the authors) as New Age therapy have permitted therapists unjustly to (1) impose the therapist's will on the client, with the benefits of therapy aggrandizing the therapist instead of aiding the client; 2) induce the client into a prolonged and unnecessary dependence on the therapist; 3) violate the fiduciary role of the therapist. '

Singer and Nievod then comment, 'Many New Age therapies run counter to psychotherapy's potential by actions that 1) misuse and abuse legitimate adjunctive procedures such as hypnosis;

2) introduce methodologies that are idiosyncratic, untested, and not accepted by the community of professional therapists;

3) impose a distored and unfounded belief in how human memory functions

4) impose a therapist's "pet theory" of what lies behind human distress, based on the therapists own momentary enthusiasm for a passing fashion."

In this same book there is are two separate chapters on 'Self Help' and on 'Commercializing Mental Health Issues.'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 07:38AM by corboy.

corboy...

I agree with what you are saying there.
In my own mind I have created two seperate areas, as mentioned.

1) Philosophy: this includes FreeWill/Determinism, memes, genes, Mind/Brain, cognition, God, religions, myths etc, etc. x1000 (using tools of science to investigate this).

To me the above area has nothing to do with cults, except they use it as you say, as brain candy, and mostly to CREATE CONFUSION in the subjects minds. That is the "content" or Belief Systems.

2) Psychology of Persuasion: This is where all the LGAT sales techniques are used, Social Influence, group hypnosis, room set-up, Zimbardo, Werner Erhard, etc x1000.
This is where Byron Katie is a master, as most people seem to not even see it?

Byron Katies "philosophy" is frankly, stupid and illogical, and nonsense. Its meant to be. Her philosophy leads people to believe Nazi baby killers are doing the work of a loving God. I think Katie has contructed a stupid solipsist philosophy to put people into an altered state of mind. She doesn't "believe" any of that junk. In sales they call that "fluff".

So what I call Philosphy is great to study, and really has nothing to do with cults, except in that its the "content" they use to distract you.
Sounds cynical, but I've worked with these people, that is how they think.

The exceptions are religous True Believers, they of course believe their content, but can also use the Tech.

But as this thread is about Byron Katie, I think that is what is missing with BK studies.
Very few of her followers seems to see the TECHNIQUE at work. This is because Katie distracts her subjects with her confusion techniques and Nondualism stuff, Love-Bombing, hugs, tea, food, weird statements, etc.

by the way, evidence for this exists in that not ONE Byron Katie person has yet come here, or anywhere else I can see, to openly discuss the methods used at her 9 Day LGAT seminar.

They try to DENY they exist, but that fails.

If they ADMIT she is doing those LGAT techniques, then that means Byron Katie is not a Savant, but took those techniques from other people. So they can't admit it.

So they DISTRACT by talking about other things, Nondualism, anecdotes, blaming you, freaking-out, lashing-out, etc. This is all DISTRACTION as the facts of the BK LGAT cannot be even admitted openly.

Carol Skolnick for example, will NOT admit any of that, and will distract, anyone can see for themselves. You ask about a FACT, you will get tap-dancing.

They have to try to believe and present that Katie is a Savant, which she is not.

Byron Katie is a detached Technocrat.

Quote
The Anticult
Byron Katie is a detached Technocrat.

It occurs to me that her "work" is quite disembodied. It's so friggin' mental, all about thoughts.

corboy:
ahem... you were the one that posted the links to the meme theory.
I was just following up and checking my understanding.

Quote
corboy
But facing how manipulable we actually are, was for me, the most emancipatory thing Ive found.

The above statement was where my understanding was going too. Thanks.
Wasn't here to start a circuitous debate :)