Guruphobiac:

Thank you again for the interesting information.

Its interesting how Stuart Resnick, Carol Skolnick, and Steven Sashen are all connected, and the Siddha Yoga connection.

I saw the word "blogroll" above, but my brain triggered the word "payroll".
LOL.
That just "might" be part of it.
The Work = serious cash. People are paying The Mortgage doing The Work, so there is more than a philosophical interest.

Also, there has been a lot of criticism of Carol Skolnick here, and maybe Stuart Resnick is friends with Carol Skolnick.
But Carol Skolnick is free to come on here and explain what she is doing. Lets go through it.
Love-Bombing, Katie-Love At First Sight, and all the rest of it.

Why not be intellectually honest?
That is the real freedom.

I think its important to seperate the so-called "Non-Dual" ideas, from the practices of Byron Katie. These are 2 completely seperate things.
There may be some intellectual philosophical value in some of the Non-Dual movement?
(But why do they use a negative dual-word "Non-Dual", instead of a single positive word like Oneness, or Pantheism, etc? Who thought up the term Non-Dual? It sounds like it might have been an ironic joke from a Drunken Master!)
But anyways...

The problem is Byron Katie is running a massive hard-core LGAT, and lying about it, and pretending she was enlightened at the foot of a cockroach, etc.
Lets get real. Its obviously a load of cockroach poop.

People can have a spiritual life, without being intellectually dishonest with themselves and the public.

RandomStu:

You said, "All scams are dependent on our own wants."

Not really, there is an element of "bait in switch" evident amongst many "enlightenment salespeople," which can be seen as deception.

And then there is the element of gaining undue influence through coercive persuasion or "thought reform" techniques. Once this is accomplished the "wants" of the cult victim become secondary to the wants of the cult and its leader.

To better understand the coercive persuasion process see [www.culteducation.com]

Also note the differences between salesman that use "advertising," politicians that use propaganda and what is called "thought reform," as laid about psychologist Margaret Singer in a chart from her book "Cults in Our Midst."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Blaming the victims of thought reform scams is not a meaningful response to their injuries.

Also it seems important to note that many people victimized by groups called "cults" seem to never fully sort through their experience.

That is, there are former cult members that have not fully recognized or completely understood how the group manipulated them and how such destructive cult dynamics work.

Ex-members that fit within this category may remain vulnerable to future cult recruitment or "scams," because they do not recognize the warning signs and dynamics of yet another enlightenment or cult "scam."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 11:23PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
rrmoderator
Blaming the victims of thought reform scams is not a meaningful response to their injuries.

ONE method of responding to regrets about following Katie (or similar groups/teachers) is to consider oneself a helpless victim, with no responsibility for the experience. I believe that this viewpoint is well-represented in this discussion.

An alternate method is to examine one own thinking and decisions... the very things that led to the original problem, and the very things that are capable of helping one avoid bad decisions in the future. Responsibility for ones own decisions is often COMPLETELY absent from these discussions, and introducing this alternate method is the MOST meaningful response to the suffering that forum members are experiencing.

Stuart



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 08:41AM by rrmoderator.

RandomStu;

Please stop posting your blog link over and over again, it will be deleted.

Spamming the board with promotional links is against the rules.

Again, you are engaging in victim bashing.

Thought reform victims, something you seem to be in denial about, are not always capable of avoiding bad decisions as their critical thinking is impaired.

In such situations people are subject to undue influence.

This appears to be something you know little about and/or are unwilling to consider.

My impression from the people who post here and other people I've talked with about these experiences is not that they feel "helpless"--they feel ANGRY. Or betrayed. Or feel a sense of loss or emotional devastation, due to the bait and switch as described by the moderator. They also have to struggle with rebuilding their lives on top of managing those emotions.

And people who get burned do take responsibility-- to the point of blaming and second-guessing themselves repeatedly, feeling remorse, or even isolating themselves from others who could help because they feel ashamed about their experience, which makes the pain feel even worse. Those are serious states of mind that need a compassionate response.

Just as you have the right to express your views, RandomStu, so do we. You may not like 'em, but they're ours to express.

Quote
floater
My impression from the people who post here and other people I've talked with about these experiences is not that they feel "helpless"--they feel ANGRY. Or betrayed. Or feel a sense of loss or emotional devastation, due to the bait and switch as described by the moderator. They also have to struggle with rebuilding their lives on top of managing those emotions.

And people who get burned do take responsibility-- to the point of blaming and second-guessing themselves repeatedly, feeling remorse, or even isolating themselves from others who could help because they feel ashamed about their experience, which makes the pain feel even worse. Those are serious states of mind that need a compassionate response.

Just as you have the right to express your views, RandomStu, so do we. You may not like 'em, but they're ours to express.

Thanks for your supportive comments. Floater. Thanks very much. :-)

Its pretty obvious, that RandomStu has not actually read much, or any, of these threads about Byron Katie, and just got some second hand info, likely from the Byron Katie internet propaganda machine.

So add the "straw-man" technique to the list.

I have not seen ONE SINGLE PERSON represent themselves as a "helpless victim" in these threads. NOT ONE. Zero. I can't think of one example. No one is not accepting responsibility for their own life, that I can recall seening in the Byron Katie threads.

So he is literally just making that up out of thin air, or less elegantly, pulling it out of his ass.
Very strange. Or that is probably just another lie being spread by the Byron Katie BS machine to try and "reframe" the criticism of Byron Katie.

If anything, you see the opposite in the threads, too much self-blame for not knowing sooner what was being done to them without their conscious awareness.
Also, Byron Katie engineers it so people do a Turnaround and OVER-BLAME THEMSELVES for everything. She has built that right into her system very carefully.

He then literally does more conjuring out of thin-air, and says that "Responsibility for ones own decisions is often COMPLETELY absent from these discussions".

Seriously dude, I hate to get angry here, but here goes. What the fuck are you smoking?
Why don't you read the threads first?
That is what the threads are all about, people coming to grips with all of this complex stuff.

Byron Katie, and many like her, do DOZENS and even HUNDREDS of complex techniques on people who have no training in these areas. They DUPE and trick people using common methods, for those who are familiar with them.

Later on, people start to try to figure out what the hell happened to them.
But it appears you either are not aware of these advanced techniques, too wrapped up in your own "experience", or have another agenda yet to be determined.

You want to talk about avoiding responsibility?
Why does Byron Katie force everyone to sign massive disclaimers before attending her seminars?
Why does Byron Katie disclaim all responsibility for her Hotline workers?
Byron Katie is the biggest shirker of responsibilty anyone could imagine.
She even FAKES she is an "enlightened savant" to AVOID ACCOUNTABILITY for what she says and does.
Why does Byron Katie fabricate and pretend she has not taken the techniques from many others for her seminars? Its laughable, she is doing a textbook LGAT, literally.

So he's doing a pretty good Byron Katie Turnaround.
Turn-it-around on them, says Katie.
If they find fault with you, try make them find fault with themselves, is literally what Katie does. Its engineered into the fabric of her system.
But Byron Katie remains blameless.
What a complete fraud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 02:11PM by The Anticult.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

What is The Work? It seems to change daily? Why? Where are the explanations?

Does it need to be immediately reported the psychological authorities in California?

There were detailed and what appeared like extreme psychological and even medical CLAIMS being made on "What Is The Work" website of Byron Katie.
But sometime after Feb 23, 2008 they were DELETED from their webpage, and that area was left blank.
Its all explained starting at this link in the other thread.
[forum.culteducation.com]

But now as of March 03, 2008, they have reposted and CHANGED at least 6 CLAIMS.
That page of The Work website no longer says The Work is:
________________________________________________
"a way to end all your stress and suffering",
'Eliminate stress: Live without anxiety or fear'
"Reduce anger: Get angry less often and less intensely, and eventually not at all"
"Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating"
"Clarity: Act more intelligently and effectively"
"Peace: Learn how to love what is, and find lasting inner peace"
_________________________________________________

But another of the Byron Katie webpages STILL retains those original medical sounding extreme psychological claims as of March 3, 2008.
[www.thework.com]
Also, about 200 other internet sites STILL contain the original extreme psychological claims! Put any of those claims into a search engine in "quotes" like this and look at all the duplicate sites.

"Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating"

Does this not appear to need to be reported immediately to the authorities?
_________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological claims being made, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology. [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
_________________________________________________



Now here is the "new" version of their Claims, profoundly altered, in at least 6 main ways. Compare for yourself.
[www.thework.com] (as of March 3, 2008)

Quote

What is The Work?
The Work is a simple yet powerful process of inquiry that teaches you to identify and question thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world. It's a way to understand what's hurting you, and to address your problems with clarity.

People who do The Work as an ongoing practice report life-changing results.

Alleviation of depression: Find resolution, and even happiness, in situations that were once debilitating
Decreased stress: Learn how to live with less anxiety or fear
Improved relationships: Experience deeper connection and intimacy with your partner, your parents, your children, your friends, and yourself
Reduced anger: Understand what makes you angry and resentful, and become less reactive, less often, with less intensity
Increased mental clarity: Live and work more intelligently and effectively, with integrity
More energy: Experience a new sense of ongoing vigor and well-being
More peace: Discover how to become "a lover of what is"

[Below is pasted the original text of Claims that appeared on that web-page as of 23 Feb 2008 19:13:19 GMT]
[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

What is The Work?
The Work is a simple yet powerful process of inquiry that teaches you to identify and question the stressful thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world. It's a way to understand what's hurting you, a way to end all your stress and suffering.

People who do The Work faithfully report life-changing results.

Eliminate stress: Live without anxiety or fear
Improve relationships: Have a new sense of connection and intimacy with your husband or wife, your parents, your children, and with yourself
Reduce anger: Get angry less often and less intensely, and eventually not at all
Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating
Clarity: Act more intelligently and effectively
Energy: Experience a new sense of vigor and well-being
Peace: Learn how to love what is, and find lasting inner peace

_________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological claims being made, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology. [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
_________________________________________________

___________________________________________________
Here is some general information about the simple process of making a complaint.

Complaints can be made confidentially, and there is information on the sites about privacy protections.

Complaints can protect future consumers from also being victims of unlicensed abusive group psychotherapy, due to warnings received.
Consumer Activism can force abusive organizations to be less harmful, and protect other consumers from sustaining damage that can last for years.
Please post and link to this information in relevant locations.

Do complaints matter?
There was a recent case of "The Gentle Wind Project" that after a series of complaints to the Attorney General from former members, and after an extended process, they were shut-down, and restitution and reimbursement were given to victims. [www.windofchanges.org]


_________________________________________________
This is where complaints can be laid against LCSWs, others, and "those individuals who may be practicing illegally without a license."
California, Board of Behavioral Sciences Online Consumer Complaint Form
[app.dca.ca.gov]
______________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological claims being made, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology. [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
From Website:


Quote:
Complaints received by the Board of Psychology (Board) are considered confidential, and not subject to disclosure
The California Board of Psychology protects the safety and welfare of consumers of psychological services.
Who May File a Complaint?
Anyone who thinks that a psychologist, psychological assistant or registered psychologist has acted illegally, irresponsibly, or unprofessionally may file a complaint with the Board of Psychology.
-sexual contact with a patient
-violating the patient's confidentiality
-providing services for which the individual has not been trained or licensed
-drug abuse
-fraud or other crimes
-false advertising
-paying or accepting payment for patient referral
-unprofessional, unethical, or negligent acts
-focusing therapy on the licensee's/registrant's own problems, rather than the patient's
-serving in multiple roles, i.e., having social relationships with patients, lending them money, employing them, etc.

Note: Everyone has the right to file a complaint without fear of harassment. If you feel you are being harassed by the licensee/registrant you've complained about, you should notify the Board immediately.
Complaints that are not within the Board's jurisdiction will be referred to the appropriate agency, and the complainant will be notified.

_________________________________________________
California Attorney General's Office Consumer Complaints
[ag.ca.gov]

_________________________________________________

Use this form to submit a complaint to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) Bureau of Consumer Protection about a particular company or organization.
[rn.ftc.gov]
_______________________________________________

IRS Complaint Process For Tax Exempt Organizations
[www.irs.gov]

A warning to readers of this thread...

A little while ago I was re-reading some of the old posts in the two Byron Katie threads. When I clicked on a few of the links to Byron Katie's old web pages, I received red alert warnings from my virus protection system that they contained "exploit threats".

This is a link to a web page that talks about exploit threats. Scroll down and read the section called "Understanding the Exploit Threat":

[[url=http://www.explabs.com/about/mediaCenter/pr_120507_01.asp]Keep Your Surfing Safe[/url]]

helpme2times, you're welcome : )

Blaming the victim, and the resulting self-blame that then traps the person in toxic guilt and inaction, is a easy way keep change from happening. The emperor doesn't like it when the kid comes out to say he has no clothes.

"Exploit threat? Yeesh. Now that's ironic. Thanks for the tip.

Quoting from Anticult's last thread (still figuring out to do the quote thingy right)

"Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating"

Does this not appear to need to be reported immediately to the authorities?"

Yes, because that's irresponsible advice that could lead to some serious trouble in a person's life. And yet another way to keep people down. So from that point of view--you're in an abusive, degrading situation? Hey, don't bother getting help, making your voice heard, calling the authorities, or raising public awareness--it's blissful perfection, the gateway to Nirvana!

Again, it's irresponsible advice. And even delusional.