Is BK sincere is a question I too have had. I think asking it is something logical especially to someone who has little experience with BK. Frankly, though, Screddy, it is irrelevant as to whether BK is sincere or if she is the Madonna :-) what is important is what is occurring and the amount of dissasociation alone that comes from doing The Work is a huge damage and that I can tell you personally. Unfortunately, most people are being damaged and don't even know what dissasociate means or if they know the mean, they don't know what it "feels" like because they come to BK already in a disassociative state.

When I first started here I ask some questions and almost along the same line that BK is sick at least,if not sincere. But I realized that these questions are useless, because it doesn't matter WHY someone wants to kill me for example, what matters is that they are trying to kill and I best run for my life.

I would hate to see some one like screddy57 put off by defensive responses. It is exactly people like him that need to get the data and since this board has helped so many, including me. It occurs to me that maybe there could be some "exact" rules about what is appropriate or not so that any of us new folks don't have to be afraid to say the wrong thing, and also so that new folks, whom this forum wants to help, might not say the wrong thing and be quickly accused of something they probably aren't.

I guess a good question is, what is more important, keep out those you don't want in the forum, or helping people that either trapped or on their way to BK's seductive ways.

IF you are since, Screddy, don't be put off. The folks here are sincere and they have had others come in and disrupt and that is not helpful to any of us. Exsci guy was invisible to me, I didn't see what they saw. So the reality is whether not someone is a plant by BK for example, is not the issue, but is what we are saying assisting others from ask the really critical questions and they are not is BK sincere, because this kind of question can be in a case like this a way to leave an opening for the seduction. At least this is my experience. I left a door open for BK a few years ago and this last and final visit with The Work showed me that was dangerous, because my excusing what is happening for any reason, I actually forgot WHY I stopped doing the Work the previous time!

screddy57:

You apparently enjoy fueling arguments.

This would be one aspect fairly common amongst Internet trolls.

And in just three posts you seem to be quickly painting yourself into that corner.

Again, Katie and her devotees have no meaningful accountability, e.g. to a licensing board as do mental health professionals.

This means that being far less accountable they represent a far greater risk than seeing a licensed, credentialed professional.

Whatever your issues are regarding mental health professionals, that is not the topic of this thread.

Please try to stay on topic or start another thread under a subject heading that fits your chosen topic.

The topic of this thread is Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle.

You know, Moderator, I just had an insight again. I think that non-trolls like me that can go on about these things don't realize that "discussing" what doesn't matter, whether PHd's are good or not for example, is all irrelevant, and it keeps us for seeing what needs to be seen. Keeping to the point seems a good "rule". And since some of us maybe needing to be deprogrammed from what we don't even realize we have been programmed with, it is a good idea. Unless a person is just not ready.

I'll just throw out a few clarifications.

I agree we all need to be a bit more cautious in how we handle possible internet trolls, that has been discussed many times. But on the other hand, no one here is telling anyone how to think.
Its ok to disagree, and its ok to get angry at times too. (unlike all these krazy kults).
So we don't all have to sing Kumbaya and hold hands, I don't think! This is not a Byron Katie LoveBombing session!

1) As mentioned, this thread is about Byron Katie, not general "hotlines" of any sort, and I am limiting my comments to BK.
The FACT is that the Byron Katie Hotline is extremely dangerous. Byron Katie does NOT endorse it. She even says she knows nothing about these people.
For example, a person who is involved in "Coaching" or a MLM, or any kind of thing, could put up a profile, and then troll for people in pain. Start a relationship with them, and then start charging them all the money they can get for coaching. Even take over their life in an explotative relationship. There is NO OVERSIGHT AT ALL. None.
Someone could RECORD your conversations without your knowledge.

The person you are talking to could have a fake name, fake credentials, fake everything.
If you have a problem, Byron Katie won't do anything, she won't get involved, neither will her company. You are shit outta luck.
As a matter of fact, if a person did get banned from the Byron Katie Hotline, they could just change their names and photos, and be right back up.
Hey, they could put up 5 identities if they want.

Even worse, in a way, is a sincere believer, who starts to do The Work with someone with Trauma. That could trigger a suicide.

The Byron Katie Hotline is extremely dangerous.


2) Byron Katie and hypnosis. I did not say anything about Vulcan Mind Powers, those do not exist on this planet. Ericksonian style indirect waking hypnosis is a studied discipline, many people do it for a living, and this is what Byron Katie does. That is a fact.

There is no way in hell that Byron Katie is "sincere", except in the way that Werner Erhard has "integrity".
A sincere person does not fabricate their past "story", and tell Whoppers at every chance on YouTube, pretend they have cancer over and over, etc. There are literally dozens of examples.

People would be wise to fine-tune their BS detectors, and learn about the methods of persuasion these people are using.

Why is Byron Katie hiding all of her Technique from her followers and fans?
Any trained NLP person can see what she is doing in minutes. This is why she only "performs" for the New Age crowd who have no training in those areas.
Put Byron Katie in front of a room of trained NLP people, and then put that on YouTube.

By the way, Byron Katie tells a Whopper on YouTube when she says something like, her people are putting the YouTube videos up on their own initiative. That is complete bullshit. Self-conscious bullshit.
Its corporate advertising, using waking hypnosis.
She owns the rights to the videos, her company had them edited and uploaded.
All those people have signed their rights away to Katie to use those videos for LIFE.
So if you happen to have a mental breakdown on camera, and are crying on your knees in front of Byron Katie, Byron Katie gets to use that video for the next 20 years to influence more people that she is "Divine". They can use that video for the next 100+ years, her daughter Roxanne when she takes over the company can use the video forever, anyway she wants.

So remember, when Byron Katie is video-taping your private moments, you have previously signed away all your rights to your image and video, and these can be used for marketing purposes by her company on the internet, probably forever. It depends what the release says.
Anyone have a copy of the release you are forced to sign when you attend her workshops?
(notice how crooked they are, they do not even give people a COPY of the very serious CONTRACT they sign when they attend her seminars! Hoe many people get a copy? Zero? Well, you can get a copy now, send a letter requesting a copy of all those contracts).

Byron Katie is a simple con-job, very sophisticated, but not THAT sophisticated.

By the way, the "creepy" feeling many people have watching her videos is your Intuition telling you that you are being manipulated and lied to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2008 12:54PM by The Anticult.

Quote
The Anticult
I'll just throw out a few clarifications.

...
The FACT is that the Byron Katie Hotline is extremely dangerous. Byron Katie does NOT endorse it. She even says she knows nothing about these people.

Anticult, a very logical question why would anyone have people on a hotline on their site, using their technique, if they don't endorse them? It is rather contradictory.

Its interesting that the Byron Katie DISCLAIMERS completely discount the Byron Katie Hotline.
Also, in the news artcle about the Byron Katie Hotline facilitator Rochelle Laudenslager and the murder case, Byron Katie says she knows nothing about those people, and has nothing to do with them.

"(Byron Katie) doesn't endorse or check out the profiles on the online network, she adds: "Anyone could put their names up there." [www.culteducation.com]

That's right, even criminals in jail, if they had internet access from jail or on parole, could put up a fake profile. Or a criminal con-artist could run one out of an internet cafe from anywhere. Its EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. Anyone could put a fake name up there, criminal, con-artist, rapist, fraud artist, psychopath, anyone.

Byron Katie has them up there as FREE UNPAID RECRUITERS to try and get them to enrol people in workshops and coaching.
So she wants untrained unpaid employees to recruit for her.

And she wants ZERO LIABILTY for any damage they cause.

If they screw with you, rip you off, or trigger a suicide...tough shit for you. She doesn't care.
As a matter of fact, read that article. It gets worse than that folks...that is why "someone" had this article removed from the Google index, to try to suppress it.

Murder suspect claimed self-help plan helped her (Rochelle Laudenslager and Byron Katie quotes)
[www.culteducation.com]

Quote
yg

Quote
The Anticult
I'll just throw out a few clarifications.
...
The FACT is that the Byron Katie Hotline is extremely dangerous. Byron Katie does NOT endorse it. She even says she knows nothing about these people.

Anticult, a very logical question why would anyone have people on a hotline on their site, using their technique, if they don't endorse them? It is rather contradictory.

Hi folks.

As someone who has been involved in the 'don't think be happy' New Age culture for quite a few years, this thread is utterly fascinating to me.

Thank goodness I never encountered Byron Katie over these past few years because there's a chance that I would have become involved with her group without asking too many questions and allowing the 'feel-good vibe' to carry me down the Byron Katie river. For a while at least.

I did read the Power of Now and A New Earth by Eckhardt Tolle, however. I found that it helped me to remain in an unhappy situation much longer than I would have otherwise.

Firstly, Tolle's theories backed up some of the belief systems I had already adopted from reading books such as 'Conversations With God'. That you 'create your own reality' etc. Which led me to thinking that I was only unhappy because my thinking and my selfish ego mind and desires were making me feel that way.

Instead of breaking out of the situation to create a better life for myself, I ignored my depression and blamed myself for my lack of mastery over my own feelings. I told myself that on the 'spiritual path' you don't do what you want to do, but what duty dictates for the higher good.

I tied Tolle's theories into the concept of 'selfless service' that I learned at my yoga meditation group. Even though the work became unbearably boring and menial, I couldn't stop doing it because I was 'working for humanity' and I believed that my higher self wanted me to overcome my ego-identification so that I could keep doing it.

So now I'm learning to think again and it feels really good. When my bf came home last night telling me he had just seem a video with a guy called George Green (Handbook for a New Paradigm) talking about an international conspiracy by an elite number of people to de-populate the world and retain access to material goods and money I got on the Internet immediately and was able to de-bunk it in a few minutes. That felt good.

Still, if a person wishes to grow spiritually, there are apparently authentic or at least accepted spiritual traditions out there such as 'Advaita' (non-dualism) which do advocate as follows:

"The seeker must serve the Guru and submit questions with all humility in order to remove all doubts (see Bhagavad Gita 4.34). By doing so, advaita says, the seeker will attain moksa (liberation from the cycle of births and deaths)." (from Wikipedia)

How do we reconcile such spiritual traditions with the desire to remain a critical thinker? It would appear to be impossible and unfortunately these theories of non-dualism seem to be the basis for untold spiritual abuse from countless unscrupulous 'gurus' for so many years.

Does anyone have any comments or anything to share that would help me understand further on this subject? I'd appreciate it and thanks very much :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2008 04:32AM by solea13.

Hi Solea

Glad you found this forum. You sound a lot like me and so many of us. I think a bigger issue is one of Authority. The first time I had my "new age" bubble busted was about 5 years when I read The Guru Papers. It is a very good read and might answer a lot of your questions (but no final answer for sure :-). The issue of authority is a big one, and if we were not looking to authority outside of ourselves, or authority learned from outside of ourselves but now internalized, we would not be prey to so much.

You have set up an Authority right here with the Advaita with what you wrote here:

"Still, if a person wishes to grow spiritually, there are apparently authentic or at least accepted spiritual traditions out there such as 'Advaita' (non-dualism) which do advocate as follows:

"The seeker must serve the Guru and submit questions with all humility in order to remove all doubts (see Bhagavad Gita 4.34). By doing so, advaita says, the seeker will attain moksa (liberation from the cycle of births and deaths)." (from Wikipedia)"


Why do we need to reconcile these traditions? The Guru Papers will address a lot that you have not considered. Who wrote the Bhagavad Gita that we take it as an authority?

All that being said, the issue being discussed here is, whether Byron Katie & Eckart Tolle arelegit and for me it doesn't mean putting them up against Advaita or the BG or anything else. I spent years trying to "reconcile" many traditions only finding myself falling again and again to a guru, teacher, technique and most recently Byron Katie. I went back to de-brain wash myself by reading the Guru Papers and reading in this forum. You will find a lot here to help.

Here are two paragraphs from the Guru Paper book which will say much better than I can. Hope this is ok to quote here. I think it answers the question...how can we reconcile the spiritual traditions, I don't think we can and it is possibly dangerous to try to so.

THE GURU PAPERS unmasks authoritarianism in such areas as relationships, cults, 12-step groups, religion, and contemporary morality. Chapters on addiction and love show the insidious nature of authoritarian values and ideologies in the most intimate corners of life, offering new frameworks for understanding and dealing with addiction and conflicts within intimacy. By exposing an “inner authoritarian” that people use to control themselves and others, the authors show why people give up their power, and how others acquire and maintain it.

New perspectives are introduced on how and why following unchallengeable authorities or ideologies, including what is often considered sacred, has generated our current dysfunctional morality. Thus our basic problems are not the inevitable outcome of “human nature,” but rather are shown to stem from deep authoritarian implants. This offers new grounds for hope. THE GURU PAPERS powerfully attests that unmasking and decoding hidden authoritarianism can disempower it, increasing the range of human freedom and possibility. The book also elegantly argues that this process is essential for human survival. [www.joelkramer-dianaalstad.com]


For long time New Agers, meditators, Budhists etc. etc., this is a very hard pill to swallow, but for me getting free of the lure and the hypnotic influences of some these things I had to really go deeply into this authority issue and wanting to give my power away or another way to say it is always looking for Mommy and/or Daddy to tell me what to do. Either authority outside of myself, or internal learned authorities operating internally.

yg

Hi solea23, you probably have read my posts and know I can be blunt, so forgive me in advance.

I don't buy it.
If I had the Answer to the Cosmos, the last thing I would want was someone to submit to me like a slave. That is sick.
Let them ask questions and challenge.

Does a great university professor want ass-kissers? No, only a crummy one does.

So the short answer, is I don't buy it, and don't believe it.
It sounds like a scam dreamed up by Gurus to get people to do mundane tasks around the place for no pay and not complain.
;-)
But seriously, to SUBMIT is about Dominance. No thanks.
We are all just humans on this planet.

Quote
solea13
Still, if a person wishes to grow spiritually, there are apparently authentic or at least accepted spiritual traditions out there such as 'Advaita' (non-dualism) which do advocate as follows:

"The seeker must serve the Guru and submit questions with all humility in order to remove all doubts (see Bhagavad Gita 4.34). By doing so, advaita says, the seeker will attain moksa (liberation from the cycle of births and deaths)." (from Wikipedia)

How do we reconcile such spiritual traditions with the desire to remain a critical thinker? It would appear to be impossible and unfortunately these theories of non-dualism seem to be the basis for untold spiritual abuse from countless unscrupulous 'gurus' for so many years.

Does anyone have any comments or anything to share that would help me understand further on this subject? I'd appreciate it and thanks very much :)

Very, very interesting.

I just received the latest Byron Katie International newsletter in my email in-box. Which I still get to keep tabs on her org.

Try this on for size:

Quote

I am thrilled to be traveling to Europe this summer.

This may be my last visit for a while. The body says "slow down"
and mind says "keep going until everyone in the world has The Work.

Could it be that BK is pondering packing it in?