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vlinden
JJ,

I'm saying all these things to you this morning because I don't want you to leave the board. This board is about real life, which is messy and sometimes ugly and angry. The strongest people are the ones who can face that reality. You are a very intelligent and strong person, and I don't think you need to run away from what's being said here on this board. You can influence it, instead. And you can help to shed light on what BK is doing, which is really hurtful to so many people. You're doing a huge service.

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The Shadow
"


WOW, You sound really angry jj, and I can't help but wonder who you are really angry with?

I am really angry, and was very angry when I wrote that post, you're right about that. With who? Anticult, for discounting my feelings, ignoring my request, and making implications that I was somehow trying to turn this forum into a cult. I responded to Anticult, obviously, I was really angry with him.

But, I suppose you see something more than that... here goes the mind reading.


I don't believe that trolls have a RIGHT to be treated with civility here. On the other hand, I have not read anything here that is less than civil. When you have been here as long as I have (since August 2007 approx.) you will notice that rrmoderator DOES in fact moderate this forum, and when, in his opinion ANYONE begins to behave in a way that is not acceptable to his standards, he will first warn them, then, if his warnings are ignored, he will BAN them, (and that includes me - i recall at first being very gently warned, and subsequently was not banned)....

And if you read my posts, I suggested that we all give some effort in responding to them more like rrmoderator, because I think his methods are more effective and make it safer and healthier for all concerned. Warn them--educate them what is expected in this forum-- and then if they ignore you, go ahead and slaughter them. I wonder how any one can reply to me when they so obviously have not even heard what I said!

I hear your anger and frustration. What i would like you to understand is that you are among many people who have been hurt by LGATs, and we all have different ways in which we express our hurt and anger. Sometimes that is directed at trolls invading this forum. Well, that's too bad, but that is just how it is.

You know, that's exactly what I told Jon when I asked him to stay. But, thanks for the lecture.


You are quite right, there IS nothing wrong with you asking for people to behave in civil ways. Just as I ask trolls like Jon Wills, NOT to come over here and PRETEND that he is here to Learn, when it is patently clear that he is here to disrupt or preach. He HURTS the participants of the forum when he invalidates their experience
- sorry, but that I WILL NOT keep silent about - I will continue to call trolls on that

Asking a troll not to come over here and pretend is very CIVIL. However, slaughtering him and his character because he did come here and pretend is NOT CIVIL. If you all were simply asking, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I will not keep silent about the uncivility and I have called you all on it. It's pretty clear that no one here intends to respect that.

you write about Anticult "I think it is possible that you like to fight" - you are making a HUGE - and eroneous - assumption here. I have been reading Anticults posts for over 6 months now and it is my assessment that Anticult does indeed CHALLENGE, and i can see why this might cause you discomfort.

I am making an assumption by stating a POSSIBILITY? Whoa! "I think it's possible..." means that I'm really not sure about this, and am acknowledging a degree of uncertainty. But, that's quite an assumption you've made about me, there.

also, you write: "if this continues I am going to leave" - giving people untimatums is not an effective means of communication, and i did chuckle a bit when i read this, because my friend did exactly the same thing with me. I would either AGREE with her, or she threatened to cut off all communication with me. I wonder if you can see how immature and unreasonable this is? You are saying in effect: "You will do what I want or I will leave" - doesn't this remind you a bit of how children behave?

No, that's not what I saying, and when I wrote it, I debated removing it because I had a feeling someone would twist it around to this. But, since you know my mind better than I do...

Let me tell you why I said it. Because I am someone who needs this board, and if it is too uncomfortable for me, then I will leave. I was trying to illustrate the seriousness of this situation from my perspective. And, I was trying to prevent myself from having to leave. I'm sorry that you see it a childish.

The way you've responded to me does remind me a bit of how children behave. Children don't really listen, they just push and persuade and try to convince others to get their way, don't they?

I sounds like you are not feeling heard? - please correct me if I am wrong.

Oh, duh. Since you apparently didn't understand my post at all, I feel pretty safe in saying that you did not hear me.

-jj



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2008 06:16AM by jj52.

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jj52
Oh, duh. Since you apparently didn't understand my post at all, I feel pretty safe in saying that you did not hear me.

-jj

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The Shadow

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jj52
jj,
you make some good points here, and initially i WAS patient and diplomatic, but it very quickly became apparent that Jon was not here to "learn", he really was here to preach and defend his position.

I think he was defending himself, and with good reason. People involved with The Work have a hard time distinguishing between themselves and The Work. I think Jon misunderstood the rules of the forum.

Furthermore he actually lied about who/what he is, and when it became absolutely clear, then and only then did i get mad and let him know that i was mad. (in LGAT lingo i was being "authentic", but not the way they like people to be authentic. What I have learned about the LGAT Leaders is that "authentic" means what they want it to mean, not what it really means, and in fact in my experience the Leaders are the only ones who are allowed to EXPRESS their anger. All the little followers run around with fake smiles, hugging each other and spewing false bliss and love. So.

I think I am frank and civil; i express my anger, I do not use foul language and name-calling (well, maybe sometimes i do) . I don't think i am "defensive".

Then why are you defending yourself to me? If you think this doesn't apply to you, why respond at all?

I simply speak my mind. If I am cross I am cross, and I don't pretend otherwise, and send mixed messages. I think the only way to remain authentic is to be congruent in one's speach and actions. (sometimes the truth does hurt, sorry, but that is reality - OFTEN it hurts me when someone expresses a truth about me that I really don't want to hear. But in time i learn from that.)

Really? Did it hurt when I said that the group... pardon me, forum... was embarrassing and uncivil? Is that why everyone is taking turns picking me apart and defending themselves? Did I hurt you all?

Aww. If you can't take it, then why do you dish it out?

Jon, in your opinion was civil, in my opinion there is nothing civil when people approach me with a hidden agenda, and i will continue to call them on that. If I don't speak to that I am giving people tacit permission to take advantage of me. Age and EXPERIENCE has taught me to "read between the lines" - fortunately for charlatans I am very good at that! At no time did i get the impression that Jon was willing to learn, he would say something to that effect, then end with "but", followed by his opinion.

I think Jon was defending himself the best way he knew how. Having been involved with The Work myself, I know that when you are involved with that, it leaves you wide open to anything with no boundaries. The only way you can protect yourself is to lie.

Apparently, I have a lot more understanding and compassion for Jon's situation because I've actually been there, entrenched in The Work. You all keep saying what a mind-warp it is, but you haven't experienced it. Jon was a victim of that. He came here to learn.

I have no doubt he will come back; probably under a different name, and saying the same old stuff..

I seriously doubt it. He's a lot less willing to put up with this stuff than I am.

You say: ".. and maybe he felt the need to convince himself that his perception was all right by seeking validation from us. Who knows?" I really don't know what exactly you mean by this. Not sure why he would seek validation from a forum that is so obviously a "cult-buster" forum.

Because he wanted to know if Byron Katie's School really was a cult. He had only had "good" experiences, but he wanted to know if he was involved in something that was hurting people. He'd never been to the School.

Anyway, jj, as i said, your points are well taken, and i understand that you might identify with him on some level, and it is a credit to you that you are willing to be so well disposed towards Jon. Maybe you are right, and I am wrong.... i am always willing to learn.

I do identify with him, and I know for sure that if I had been here 6 months earlier, you all would have slaughtered me the same way you did him, and I would have run right back to Byron Katie.

Jon did share with me what he learned here, and how he got some of himself and his feelings back through it. I am so angry that you all chased him away, but at least he got the information he needed.

He won't be the last person coming in here looking for answers, you all. Please, don't smear everyone that needs your help! They WILL look like trolls, and it WILL be hard to decipher them. SO PLEASE BE CIVIL until you know who is who. EDUCATE them, and give them a chance. This stuff is so severe... it's hard for Byron Katie's followers to take it all in, especially when they are being dumped on constantly. I don't think you all have any idea what I've been through, even though you all were being civil to me.

If you really want to get people away from Byron Katie, then PLEASE, stop justifying the way you've treated him, and just be more civil if someone else should find their way in here.


-jj

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rrmoderator
To whom it may concern:

Please to be civil and reasonable.

There should be no need for anyone to leave due to a lack of civility.

Flaming and personal attacks are against the rules.

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helpme2times

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jj52
Oh, duh. Since you apparently didn't understand my post at all, I feel pretty safe in saying that you did not hear me.

-jj

JJ! Saying stuff like "Oh, duh" is hardly modeling the civility that you're begging from us.

That be's my opinion.

And I'd like to add... BK, if she is watching any of this, is likely loving the diversion away from examining the problems with her stuff.

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jj52

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helpme2times

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jj52
Oh, duh. Since you apparently didn't understand my post at all, I feel pretty safe in saying that you did not hear me.

-jj

JJ! Saying stuff like "Oh, duh" is hardly modeling the civility that you're begging from us.

That be's my opinion.

And I'd like to add... BK, if she is watching any of this, is likely loving the diversion away from examining the problems with her stuff.

Well, you aren't someone who came here fresh from The Work, are you? I'm so pissed off by now, civility has gone out the window. I'm glad you've pointed this out, though.

Obviously, I need to leave this forum.
-jj

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The Anticult
But all that being said, I don't believe I am breaking the rules of this forum, and going too far. If so, they can simply delete those posts, that's fine with me. But I gots to follow my own instincts and be honest.