Hi moderator,

Thank you for your posting - I don't want to give the impression that I was attempting to promote the websites that were edited out - all have had some form of website or blog on them in the past, but none of them are active anymore - they have 'parked pages' from the company that I purchased the domain names from.

They were all mentioned in an earlier posting by another member of the forum in doing some research on me and I was simply clarifying their status.

Lastly, I've realised that it is time for me to leave this thread - I've learnt a lot in a short space of time, so thank you to all of you. Good luck with your own journeys.

Jon

jj,

You seem extremely upset by some of what has been said on this board. Your level of emotion does lead me to believe that perhaps you need to take a break and get some space before deciding to continue taking part here. Though your input has been incredibly valuable, I wouldn't want your participation here to cause you undue stress.

Because this is actually not a group in any sense of the word, no one is affiliated in any way, it's just a bunch of individuals posting, we really don't have any control over each other.

I've been reading this board non-stop for over a month, I must have read every single thread on the LGAT site. I've seen numerous incidents of trolls showing up, and I've found it very interesting to see how they operate.

For the most part, they sound exactly like Jon Willis.

They can be very disruptive, but it seems their one and only intent it is to SOW SEEDS OF DOUBT in the minds of anyone who is on the fence about a particular group.

Because everyone else on this board is absolutely clear about how destructive cults and LGATs are, these trolls are there to drive a wedge into the dialogue and keep the door open. That's why they are usually very nice, very soft spoken, and are extremely hard to get riled up. They just keep on plugging their message, over and over again.

I've seen people getting waaay more aggressive with trolls then they have here with Jon Willis, but it's very hard to get them to go away no matter how angry you get, or even how thoroughly you expose them, because they have a mission here, and they want to stay in the room.

However, that said, it is hard at times to tell the difference between a well meaning person who is still brainwashed and a real troll.

I think people were wondering about Jon Willis and asking him why he came here -- me included -- because we smelled a rat. Then when it was divulged that he had not been totally honest about his level of involvement with BK, people assumed he was just another troll.

It's true that being kind, compassionate and understanding is very important, and I understand that you don't want to fight. But in reality, some people do want to fight. You don't have to take part, and you can always offer a more understanding voice if other people are getting hot under the collar. But in truth, I haven't seen anything on this board that even comes close to the level of abuse that takes place regularly on other forums all over the Internet -- have you ever posted on Huffington Post? It's vicious over there!

My experience has been that the people on this board are among some of the most articulate and passionate and honest and truly caring people I've ever encountered. And they are REAL. They're being themselves -- some of them for the first time in many years, since they joined some New Age mind control group that told them they could never get angry. When the anger and hostility arises, it's usually for a very good reason, and indeed a lot of people have been so hurt through LGATs and cults, they are venting some of that feeling here where they will be understood. I don't think you're ever going to stop that from happening, and I think it might be possible for you to understand why it happens and accept it.

I really feel that if people do not want to read the information on this board because some of it is too harsh, or people's emotions or anger are present, they are not ready to wake up yet. This is a board of people who have woken up, and yes, many are pissed off.

When a person still involved with a group comes here truly looking for answers to the problems with the group that are plaguing them -- like you (though I know you were out of the group already) -- it is very difficult to get them confused with a troll.

Also, there are people here who have been part of groups, and others, like me, who have been hurt by them indirectly through someone else. Sometimes it's hard for people like me to understand how anyone could ever get involved with these groups, and I'm sure my feelings on this have been offensive to some people.

However, I think it's really important that people within mind-control fantasy groups get a taste of real life, here on this board. I've been grateful for the honesty and anger expressed here, the hurt is real. Coming from friends and spouses, especially, who have lost people they love. People who get sucked into these groups -- or who are about to -- need to know exactly how it effects the rest of us still in the "real" world, where everything is not "positive" and "peaceful" all the time, and we are not looking for ways out of our pain, but feeling it cutting through us at every moment.

Anyway. My two cents.

JJ,

One of your comments makes me think . . . You say you don't want to hate BK for the rest of your life.

A big part of all of these groups, and BK, is how they tell people to deal with feelings of fear, hatred, etc. Obviously, these feelings don't feel good. And of course in the extreme, combined with dysfunction, they can immobilize someone, or ruin their lives.

However, as you know, fear and hatred are indispensable to being alive, being human, surviving, creating, inventing, choosing and evolving. So is every other 'negative' emotion.

What BK teaches is the most extreme form of delusion I've ever encountered -- worse than Landmark by a sight -- in the way she instructs people to consistently disable the critical thought processes, linked with emotion, that lead to these feelings.

One of the results of this that bothers me deeply is creating people who do not know how to properly react to danger or truly negative situations.

I've been a political activist for years, and within the activist community there are many camps. One of them is a New Age camp who are consistently lecturing on being "positive" and not using any negative words in our campaigns, protests, etc. They don't want to be "against" anything, they want to be "for" things.

Okay, fine.

This has led to many interesting debates.

When I was organizing against the Iraq war, before it began, I was having a debate with a very New Age woman about this. She didn't like the anti-war fliers we were making, and was saying we needed to put out "positive" energy, etc. We shouldn't be "anti-war" we should be "pro-peace." I asked her to think about the child in Iraq who, in a matter of weeks, would be killed along with his family when the bombs began to fall. I asked her to think, from his perspective, what would he ask of us, as protesters in the US? Who was she trying to serve, with her "positive" thinking -- herself, or that boy? Was she trying to maintain her own inner peace, or really fight to stop what was about to happen to that boy? That boy knows that it's WAR that is going to drop on his head, not peace. War was his problem, the war we were making. War was the reality.

I like to talk about reality, myself.

War, racism, sexism, slavery, pollution, genocide, I've had many New Age people tell me I shouldn't even put those words into the world. I've written articles on all of these things, and gotten flack from them. Meanwhile, where were the articles they were writing to educate the world?

What kind of effect can people have on changing the world when they don't even want to name the things that are ruining it? I've never found ONE of these people to be effective organizers. You know what they do? They hold hands in a circle and pray for peace. Very effective. They hold silent prayer vigils, while the bombs drop. They've never stopped one bomb.

The Israeli woman who was interviewed by BK, she was afraid of war. AND SHE WAS RIGHT. She was afraid of it, and she hated it, and she probably hated the people who make the war, and kill the young soldiers and innocent people. AND SHE'S RIGHT.

That hatred feels bad, but to me, there is only one solution and it is not becoming a vase of flowers, as BK advised. It's action. Doing something. Engaging in the world, working for peace and justice. Using that fear and anger as fuel. And practicing a fierce compassion that allows you to see your enemies as people, even as you must work against the evil they do in the world.

A vase of flowers will never stop the violence in the Middle East. Millions of fed up Israeli and Palestinian mothers might.

So, in a world increasingly out of control, I see BK's teachings as even more insidiously harmful because she is creating vases of flowers where there could be real forces for change.

JJ,

I'm saying all these things to you this morning because I don't want you to leave the board. This board is about real life, which is messy and sometimes ugly and angry. The strongest people are the ones who can face that reality. You are a very intelligent and strong person, and I don't think you need to run away from what's being said here on this board. You can influence it, instead. And you can help to shed light on what BK is doing, which is really hurtful to so many people. You're doing a huge service.

One thing for everyone who reads this to always keep in mind everytime they see or hear Byron Katie speak for the rest of their lives is...

(that was an embedded command...you will always remember it....another one...) ;-)

everything Byron Katie says and her images has a double-meaning, at least.
Byron Katie is simply using it as a hypnotic metaphor, for influencing your Unconscious.
Its not about the Mid-East at all...
Its that Byron Katie wants YOU to BECOME LIKE a vase of flowers to HER...passive, open, pretty, receptive...to Byron Katie.

And who is the Terror in this metaphor? (guess who!)
And who is the passive Vase of Flowers? (you)

Byron Katie is not a vase of flowers. She is a highly aggressive abusive global entrepreneur of metaphorical stories, that is, waking hypnosis, and many other things. It really all makes perfect sense when looked at completely.

So yes, we should NOT be like a vase of flowers to allow hypnotic terrorists into our minds.

(here is a counter-Induction, notice I tell you first!)
-------------------------
In you MIND, take that vase of flowers, replant the flowers in the garden and set them free...now...mentally shrink a yapping Byron Katie down into the size of her little pet cockroach, and then trap mini-katie in her own clear Vase, and put a cork in it on the top, and glue it down, with Superglue. So now mini-katie is the size of her katie cockroach from 1986 that never happened, and is trapped in the vase, still yacking away at the walls, but there is NO SOUND, no nothing. She yacking, but its all nice and silent and QUIET...Now mini-katie is contained....for eternity...
Now YOU can decide what to do with the powerless mini-katie trapped in the katie-vase for eternity. Trust your own Unconscious...maybe the katie-vase will be put into a glass furnace and dis-assembled forever...or thrown into a volcano on Uranus, or into the sun...yeah...that's a good one...the little vase is launched into space by throwing it with your powerful arm..and drifts into the sun and is a tiny speck of nothing that is vaporised instantly into utter complete nothingness...and we are all free again...free at last...free at last..free at last...all is right with the Cosmos again...silence, and peace...simple happiness...and just being a person...its great to be a person...free...and the Sun is shining brightly now...today is a good day to be alive and be A Human, a real Mensch ... :-)

-------------------------------------
So anyone can use these types of imaginal metaphors back on themselves, and do it in a healthy way. That being said, with trauma, sometimes some very "intense" imagery is needed. Please see a trained licensed professional for that type of work. There is some information out there about IRRT, Imagery Rescripting & Reprocessing Therapy.

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vlinden
...
A vase of flowers will never stop the violence in the Middle East. Millions of fed up Israeli and Palestinian mothers might.

So, in a world increasingly out of control, I see BK's teachings as even more insidiously harmful because she is creating vases of flowers where there could be real forces for change.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2008 02:47AM by The Anticult.

It was a positive sign that at least Jon Willis appeared to stop just running patterns from The Work, and began to appear to be more genuine. That being said, a 10 second simple search of the Google cache from only a few weeks ago (the posts are older) is quite revealing...

Jon Willis
"I am a 36 year old guy that has learnt and is continuing to learn that unhappiness and suffering are caused by thoughts and beliefs that I buy into - nothing else. If you want to try it out for yourself, email me and we will set up a free one-on-one session."

So he was trying to do The Work for profit, as a business, notice the code-words..."nothing else". I think he said he was doing some "coaching" but again, from the text above, he was doing The Work Coaching, not just Coaching.
One wonders, where did he get the training to do this? Its right by the book. Who taught him to offer a "free one-on-one session"? (that is where they use their training to move to session #2, which is not free).

It is possible he was just acting out of programming which he is coming out of, but if so, why the avoidance of carefully looking at it?
That being said, as soon as tough questions about disclosure are asked...buh-bye.

Has one single person from The Work had an open dialouge about any of this? I haven't seen any..just avoidance...Carol Skolnick seems to just try to use deflection with metaphors on her blogsite...a recent one about "Do No Harm"...she might consider taking own advice, and instead of worrying about plastic water bottles, concern herself with the real issues, instead of deflecting from them.

Since he said he likes Carl Sagan, one could put The Work Questions though the Carl Sagan Baloney detection kit, see what you get....zippo.
[users.tpg.com.au]

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jj52

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The Anticult
honestly, I don't know what he's doing over here anyway, he really does not have anything to offer, except to "defend" his position, which he keeps saying he is not defending!

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Hi jj,
first of all the above is my statement, not Anticult's - Shad
----------------

Further, you state: "
Yet I get the impression that his presence here was more about convincing himself, than us. Someone may have given him this link, then he may have read something that rocked his Byron Katie fantasy... and maybe he felt the need to convince himself that his perception was all right by seeking validation from us. Who knows?

I would be very surprised if he returned.

Maybe I don't understand how this forum is supposed to work. Is the idea to keep trolls out, by any means necessary? Will someone explain this to me?

Anyone involved in The Work of Byron Katie who comes to this forum has a chance of getting freed from it... unless we badger them to the point that they have to leave for their own well-being. I came here partially to share what I know to help others... whether that is by preventing them from tangling with The Work, or breaking the spell they are already under.

Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing here? Do I misunderstand the purpose of this forum?

I understand that people here are angry and defensive over what he did and said... rightfully so. Is there a better, more civil way to handle apologists? After all, they are people... and at some point, they were the victim who didn't have the correct information to keep them out of Byron Katie's web. Isn't this forum here to educate-- to give people correct information about these things? There has to be a better way to deal with this. What if someone really was here to learn, but was entrenched enough in Byron Katie Land to behave badly-- like they've been trained to do... without the awareness that they were doing so?

What if Jon was one of those people? He read the threads, and seemed willing to keep learning. Now, we've treated him pretty poorly... and I would be surprised to see him back.

(And I'm not saying Jon was one of those people, but what if?)

The information we are providing here must be very scary for people involved in The Work, who have invested so much, and hang their future on Byron Katie's teachings. I expect resistance from them, and I don't feel threatened by it. I don't want to slaughter anyone... even if Byron Katie sent him here herself.

It's been suggested that we post links to this thread on other sites. I don't want to post these links other places, because frankly, I'm embarrassed by the way we've behaved at times towards these people. Jon may have lied, and may have had an agenda for us all... but he was civil. And, unfortunately, that makes us here at the forum look like the barbarians. Who would take us seriously like this?

The people involved in Byron Katie's LGAT... I was one of them, once upon a time. I was more involved that I generally talk about here, to protect my anonymity. If I had found this forum earlier, and was still behaving like Jon... I would not have hung around long enough to find out what I needed to know. No one likes to be treated this way. Least of all love-bombed mind control victims.

I really love the way rrmoderator responds to trolls. He is factual, frank, and civil. If we want people to take us seriously, I think we ought to try harder to do the same.

You all are an amazing group of people. I'm so grateful for all you have taught me. You have so much to share... that needs to be shared. I need to hear it... and others, like Jon, need to hear it, too.

Can we please be more diplomatic and civil about these matters?"

Please?

-jj

jj,
you make some good points here, and initially i WAS patient and diplomatic, but it very quickly became apparent that Jon was not here to "learn", he really was here to preach and defend his position. Furthermore he actually lied about who/what he is, and when it became absolutely clear, then and only then did i get mad and let him know that i was mad. (in LGAT lingo i was being "authentic", but not the way they like people to be authentic. What I have learned about the LGAT Leaders is that "authentic" means what they want it to mean, not what it really means, and in fact in my experience the Leaders are the only ones who are allowed to EXPRESS their anger. All the little followers run around with fake smiles, hugging each other and spewing false bliss and love. So.

I think I am frank and civil; i express my anger, I do not use foul language and name-calling (well, maybe sometimes i do) . I don't think i am "defensive". I simply speak my mind. If I am cross I am cross, and I don't pretend otherwise, and send mixed messages. I think the only way to remain authentic is to be congruent in one's speach and actions. (sometimes the truth does hurt, sorry, but that is reality - OFTEN it hurts me when someone expresses a truth about me that I really don't want to hear. But in time i learn from that.)

Jon, in your opinion was civil, in my opinion there is nothing civil when people approach me with a hidden agenda, and i will continue to call them on that. If I don't speak to that I am giving people tacit permission to take advantage of me. Age and EXPERIENCE has taught me to "read between the lines" - fortunately for charlatans I am very good at that! At no time did i get the impression that Jon was willing to learn, he would say something to that effect, then end with "but", followed by his opinion.

I have no doubt he will come back; probably under a different name, and saying the same old stuff..

You say: ".. and maybe he felt the need to convince himself that his perception was all right by seeking validation from us. Who knows?" I really don't know what exactly you mean by this. Not sure why he would seek validation from a forum that is so obviously a "cult-buster" forum.

Anyway, jj, as i said, your points are well taken, and i understand that you might identify with him on some level, and it is a credit to you that you are willing to be so well disposed towards Jon. Maybe you are right, and I am wrong.... i am always willing to learn.

regards,
Shad

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The Shadow[/quote

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fortunately for charlatans I am very good at that!
regards,
Shad

ops!, i meant UNfortunately for charlatans.....

please note correction

-Shad

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Jon Willis
I have had problems posting messages this morning - the system told me I wasn't logged in after trying to post it twice - if the post did happen to get through and just hasn't appeared yet then I'm hoping the moderator picks up on this and deletes the duplicates.

Thanks,


Jon

Jon,
sometimes, when you log in, if you type just one wrong letter, or say, for example you transpose letters or numbers, you will not be able to log in. IF you are thinking there is anything sinister about this, don't., OR, if the message is overly long you get timed out - this has happened to me occasionally.

regards,
Shad

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Jon Willis
Lastly, I've realised that it is time for me to leave this thread - I've learnt a lot in a short space of time, so thank you to all of you. Good luck with your own journeys.

Jon

Jon,
I thought you said on March 3rd or 4th that you were not going to come back to the rickross forum?

- Shad