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Zentient

2) I have been going to the local Unity Church, which has totally bought into Byron Katie. She came to the church and one of the members gives workshops there. This had caused me to question the Unity Church. Anyone know about this connection? Do some people consider the Unity Church a cult?

While I have not heard Unity called a cult, it should definitely be avoided. It is a very watered-down version of Christianity, so watered-down I don't even think it is "Christian". And I'm hardly an evangelist! It has an appeal in that it seems to syncretize various faiths into one, but then still tries to maintain that it is basically Christian. Either way, none of that matters to me.

What matters is that they are selling the same thing that Church of Religious Science, Ramtha, Bleepers, Esther Hicks, Institute of Noetic Sciences are selling: your thoughts create your own reality. While this philosophy seems to be popular in liberal/left circles who have rejected Christianity, it is actually a very reactionary, corporatist philosophy. '

"A pit of boiling tar fell on you at work because your company didn't follow safety guidelines? Well, you created your own reality!" See how that fits like a glove with anti-labor corporate agendas?

Also, much of this comes from Norman Vincent Peale, who was an agent for the Nazis! "Positive thinking", indeed!

"Church of Religious Science, Ramtha, Bleepers, Esther Hicks, Institute of Noetic Sciences"

-Oops, how could I forget that SCUMBAG Rhonda Byrne of "the Secret"? A major oversight, I apologize...

Zentient,

I don't know anything about the Unity Church, but I did think it was really odd that a Church would have Katie come do a seminar there when I saw that event listed awhile back. Katie's belief system is so Anti-everything-Christian... she doesn't belong teaching in a Church!

After attending The School, I felt like I understood better the message that Katie is trying to get across to everyone. No, you're not supposed to question the thoughts that bring you "happiness," only the ones that bring you "stress." Supposedly. Basically, anything about reality that you don't like, just turn it around and convince yourself its not what it is so you can live in bliss... I mean, this stuff gives "rose colored glasses" a new meaning.

However, when you are at The School in her controlled environment, she unleashes a whole new realm of questioning. The idea is that no matter what you think, it's just a "story." Katie often says "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it." Her beliefs about the world and "reality" make her happy, and I think she doesn't want to see it differently. She basically tells us that we can live in delusion as long as it makes us happy. Forget reality! Because... isn't reality whatever you believe it to be anyway?? She calls herself a "lover of reality" but then distorts reality to fit her purposes.

Have you ever heard her say this: "It was a chair, then it wasn't"...? To her, things are not things, just illusions. But she will call it a chair because she knows that is what you call it... and she's got her "human disguise" on. It's so beyond good sense... but I'm trying very hard to explain her belief system in a way that we can all understand... especially me. Sorry if it doesn't make sense here... It's hard to make something that doesn't make sense... make sense.

Even though she has a "story"-- a delusion-- about the world... she also claims that she has no beliefs and no story at all. She basically says that her "story" is just to benefit us normal people who can't understand what it's like being her. She says that everything is nothing. She may call it a chair, but she doesn't really believe that's what it is, because to her it's just nothing. She thinks that the chair is really just a "projection"... an illusion that her mind is creating for her. So, in Katie's mind nothing is real. She teaches that the mind is just like a movie projector... constantly putting images before our eyes... even our body is nothing but a projection, she says. Nothing is real, so why believe your mind? She says that she lives in "reality" because she has "done all her Work", questioned all her thoughts, and come to realize that there is NOTHING, that she is NOTHING... that we all are nothing. No right, no wrong, no good, no bad. No Christian God, no devil. No Buddha. No Muhammad. No feelings. No evil, no sin, no virtue. Nothing. Everything is a figment of our imagination... And once you realize that, then you are living "in love."

That's her ultimate message.

At the same time, she says that there is SOMETHING... "God" as she defines God. And that's all there is, and that is "reality" or "love" according to her. God, in Katie's world, is something, everything, and nothing all at once. God is just this big nothingness, and we are like fingers on this giant nothing organism... we don't really exist, because we are little pieces of this big nothing...

It's almost as if this nothing God were just playing a game with Itself, and tricking us all into believing we exist, and the only way out of this world is to realize that we really are nothing and don't exist, to do The Work, and return back to our big nothingness... which is really all we are, anyway.

So, any thought or belief you have about anything is really just an illusion, and you can choose your illusion, because you are a little piece of the big nothing called God, or "reality."

Are you confused yet???

There are people out there knocking themselves out trying to reach the same point that Katie is... because they actually believe this crap. I suppose that's why I couldn't immerse myself in it.

Katie says in her new book "A Thousand Names for Joy" that the thing she "really likes about being in different bodies" is that when someone else hurts, she doesn't have to feel it. In other words, she is you, you are her, everyone is everyone, and all little parts of the big nothing God. That is why she treats everyone so sweetly... because she's just talking to herself. Everything and everyone is an extension of herself. But, she knows you probably don't understand that, so she will talk to you on your level... Is this insane or what? She contradicts herself all the time... she'll tell you whatever, and deny it, because it didn't really mean anything anyway... and/or you just didn't understand.

She really seems to enjoy having no empathy and feeling no pain... and this is "bliss". Personally, I could never be happy like that.

But, that's really the goal of The Work.

Psychopathy anyone?
How about a little narcissism?

(I dunno if that answered your question, but it sure helped me to get that all out!)

-jj



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2008 02:29AM by jj52.

>>Never mind they are telling outright falsehoods with a straight face. They say they are happy ALL THE TIME, which is a lie. Psychology has shown that is NOT possible.


THANK YOU for saying that. Whoo...

I just realized how I had bought into this believing that Katie is happy all the time. And when I read this sentence, my mind flashed back to all the moments at The School when she was visibly upset, impatient, tired, frustrated, and agitated. It never ceases to amaze me... here I was a total skeptic the entire time... and I still got duped!

Mind control isn't a game to play with, is it? It's just best to get the heck away from it, and stay away from it.

Yeah... she really wasn't happy all the time. But she said she was, even when her facial expressions, body language, and voice intonation said very differently. How did I not see this before?

Wow. I'm so glad to have found this group. You all are helping me so much.

THANK YOU!

-jj

Zentient:

Great points.
I am in a rush, but we most certainly do NOT need to question ALL of our thoughts. That is just a crackpot technique from Byron Katie to destabilize your sense of Self. Its vicious.

In cognitive therapy, we do question SOME of our thoughts, to see if they are really incorrect, etc. But its done in a moderate way,quite carefully. Even in Zen, you are not to question all of your thoughts, you learn to ACCEPT them.

If a person tries to question ALL of their thoughts, to put it bluntly, they might go freaking nuts! Or get stressed out of their mind. Byron Katie is just trying to mess with people's cognitive faculties. Very very damaging.

and Unity Churches seem to now be taken over by various New Age culty groups.
Below is a link to various discussions. Check further down the list for more info. So yes, Unity has gone culty in the sense of being "taken over" by local groupies of people like Byron Katie, or whoever is in power at the time. They take over the church board, its not hard to do.
[forum.culteducation.com]

jj:

writing all that stuff out is going to help BIG TIME in dealing with it. It takes it out of the realm of confusion, and begins to put it back into context, that is into the context of...gimme a freaking break Byron Katie!
Byron Katie might be a blend of crazy, and just crazy enough to make a ton of cash acting wacky.

She seems to be just pitching a version of the old silly SOLIPSISM.
[dictionary.reference.com]


All of these types of questions about "reality" have value, no question. Philosophy has dealt with all of this stuff, and we can spend time trying to come to grips with it, without losing our grip on reality. Folks like Byron Katie exploit the human desire for MEANING and COMPREHENSION, and they abuse it.

Also, her views on happiness will make a person UNHAPPY.
If you want to be happy all the time, you will become miserable, as the expectations conflict with reality.

If on the other hand, you have proper expectations of being a human, with normal ups and downs, then happiness will come more naturally.
Dr. Martin Seligman has a good book on this called Authentic Happiness.

Bertrand Russell also explains happiness.
[www.google.com]

Byron Katie is very smart.
1) She tells people if they do what she says and take her courses, they will reach Happiness.

2) But doing what she says will literally make you MISERABLE.

3) this just means you need to take more of her courses. Closed-Loop.

Byron Katie is not happy, she sounds like a very tortured soul.

People who are seriously depressed or anxious should seek good treatment from a licensed professional, and stay as FAR AWAY as possible from Byron Katie, and people like her. They will hurt you.

That is why her website is full of legal disclaimers, as after she hurts you, you will find it difficult to do anything about it.

Would anyone care to post the text of her legal disclaimers she forces you to sign before you take her courses and School?
Just post the text in these Byron Katie threads, so we can have a look at it.

Anticult,

You are so right, right, right. Thank you! Writing this stuff is really helping me. Reading what you've written is helping me, too.

It never occurred to me, but you are exactly right. I did become MORE miserable after the School, and that made me want to keep going back... for awhile, anyway. It didn't take too long before I just couldn't do it anymore... every time I tried to do The Work on a thought, I would just sob until I stopped. It felt like "Inquiry" was killing me... and so it was.

I remember signing a waiver of some sort during registration. Everything was moving so fast, I didn't have time to think about it, so I don't really remember anything beyond the fact that it was basically saying that you were responsible for yourself, your medical conditions, and mental health. And, that you could not/would not be able to take legal action if anything happened to you. But the paper was whisked in front of you, and whisked away so fast, and with everything else going on... there wasn't much time to ponder it or read it completely.

Of course, it gives the impression that they are being responsible and professional about things. It never occurred to me that it had any other purpose. Oh, its all making so much more sense now.

Please, keep teaching me!

-jj

jj, we have all been there. And its possible to get out, and stay out.

Byron Katie is very bad news. The deeper one looks, the more rats you see sneaking around. Its no accident they slam that legal disclaimer and waiver in front of people, and get people to SIGN IT without even reading it. Its all on file in their lawyers offices, and will be forever.
She is doing the same thing as all these other scammers, right by the book.


I hate to sound like a harping seal, but everyone should go out and read this book below. You can buy it used for a couple bucks these days. This book teaches us how to think, and by doing so can keep us out of these traps. Its not about cults per se, its about how to evaluate reality, and about 100 other things. Its wonderfully written, and may be one of the best books I have ever read on this subject. The book is like an entire course in critical intelligence, truly wonderful. Its a shame Carl Sagan died too early.

The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan
[www.google.com]

This book is usually a local used bookstores for a few bucks, or online used booksellers, even new is 10 bucks.
Byron Katie can't even pass the most basic points in the Carl Sagan Baloney Detection Kit, from that same book.
[users.tpg.com.au]

I'm going to purchase that book, Anticult.

It got great reviews on Amazon, and it sounds exactly like what I need to read right now.
THANK YOU!

-jj

By the way, if one looks down the Google search list for The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan from above, around #12 and #17, there are torrent audiobook entries on Mininova and Piratebay, but they are different in size. The smaller one might be the shorter version?

I listened to the audio cassette recording from when it came out, and its Carl Sagan himself reading the book in his unique style. It was done just before he died.