kcross:

Is there or is there not an annually published and independently audited financial statement?

And can Aguilar be fired by a democratically elected and independent board?

no there is not "an annually published and independently audited financial statement" there is no debate about this. i still fail to see how this defines a cult.

no there is no "democratically elected and independent board" that can fire phil aguilar. this has also never been debated. he is the proprietor of the church. it may come as a shock to some but he was also not hired by a "democratically elected and independent board" and there is no difference between not having a board and having a sham board that wouldnt fire its pastor anyway (would that make you more secure?). every church is not democratically run, in fact the type of democracy you speak of is a rather modern notion. no one elected john the baptist to go out and preach did they? its not a biblical requirement either. in fact the bible is filled with dictators and totalitarian rulers (not just of their follower but of nations) who were considered great men of god. many of them who have committed the same sins phil aguilar is accused of, many of them who were also accused of running cults and in the end it was up to god to deal with their sins, not man.

OK.

So no one that contributes to Aguilar really knows where the money goes.

And Aguilar is not accountable to any of the members of the ministry, through bylaws or democratic checks and balances.

Are you saying that Aguilar should be seen as "John the Baptist"?

accountability is not relegated to democracy. people are also personally accountable to men and to god.

again to address the money. any reasonable person can see that money goes to pay for his family, living expenses, homes, vehicles, ministry expenses. from what i have personally seen (yes they do keep records of donations, in fact someone that is not pastor phil does so) there is no glut of money given to the ministry to steal or hide even if someone wanted to. this isnt a high dollar ministry. actually i know for a fact at times certain members of the church who were more financially stable had to supplement the churches income because there was not enough to go around. in not saying he is a pauper but would we expect him to be? if you doubt that the money goes into the ministry i go spend a few days around them. see how many people they house and care for while given nothing or nearly nothing in return monitarily.

and please do not confuse me saying that neither john the baptist nor pastor phil were democratically elected means i am drawing any other comparisons between them. you could any one of countless people for the same comparison.

Typically a Protestant minister is accountable to his congregation through a democratically elected and independent board and also most often a denomination as well.

Aguilar has no meaningful accountability through a constitution, bylaws or a board according to what you have said here.

Also, most Protestant churches have a published budget that specifically states all salaries and/or any other compensation or expenses paid out.

Aguilar has no such financial transparency according to what you have said here.

Many ministries belong to the EFCA, but not Aguilar.

You may suppose where the money goes, but you really don't know. And you have no meaningful way of holding Aguilar accountable.

isnt it odd that im the only one answering any questions here? the only evidence youve offered is that its not run like a typical church (im sure phil would be proud).

and yet again there is no independent audit. i have made that clear, but i can tell you when he bought me meals, filled my gas tank, and thousands of other times he reached in his pocket and handed people money. thats more than you can say for most ministers.

all you have managed to say is that he is not good at accounting. im sure he wouldnt deny this.

kcross:

It's not a matter of being "good at accounting," Aguilar probably has someone that does the books.

It's that no one, including you, knows where the money goes. That is, except for the few bucks spent on gas and food you mention. And that amount of money is quite small considering the total cash flow of the ministry.

According to your statements Aguilar is more or less adictator that runs the ministry much like a family business despite its nonprofit tax-exempt status.

Aguilar controls everything and has no meaningful accountability to anyone.

once again you choose to contort my words. as you put it at least two people know where the money goes, whoever does phils books and phil himself.

i was using the example of money hes handed me and the money ive seen him hand out to innumerable others (no really i lost count) to offer a very small example of where the money goes, in large part back to the ministry in one way or another. you must have mistaken me for a fool if you had the idea that i think thats even significant compared to the income of the ministry. since were on the subject what do you know of the income of the church? according to you there is no reason for you to think one way or the other of how much money the church takes in, as well as you know what he has given me over the years [b:b95d5f309c]is[/b:b95d5f309c] significant.

additionally before you make another statement of the way phil aguilar runs the church please offer something other than hearsay to support your statements. i would honestly be surprised if you have every been in the same room as him or have ever spoken to him, much less have any working knowledge what-so-ever of the manner in which the congregation is led.

kcross:

You are speaking in circles.

What you have established is that (1) Phil Aguilar runs the ministry without any meaningful oversight, checks or balances mandated by a democratically elected board (2) there is no financial transparency through a published and independently audited financial statement.

Again, this makes "Set Free" something like the Aguilar family business run whatever way Aguilar wants.

Are you now disputing these two points?

i am not speaking in circles, you are just asking the same two questions repeatedly because you seem to have ran out of other talking points/rhetoric. how many times have you asked the same question? what have any of these done to establish cult like activity? because as you said it is just irregular for a church, and i believe anyone would agree set free is irregular.

we have established that (1) democracy has nothing to do with church. accountability need not be at any other level than with man and god than on a personal level, if you disagree please show me evidence to the contrary. (2) there is no report, i agreed with that earlier. that doesnt mean i agree with you. again show me something substantial that says that it is nessecary for every congregation to do so. additionally (3) the point of my last post is you essentially know nothing about this ministry and what information you have been fed has been of questionable origins. i was not refuting my prior statement, instead i was simply pointing out that you have no basis for your statement other than lack of knowledge. you are in essence saying he doesnt publish financial reports therefore he steals. do you have any evidence to back up your claims or are you just taking shots in the dark?