I also wanted to add that the "visions" that people have in ICM are for the most part are picturing something in your mind. For example, if I told you to remember your loved one, you could picture he or she in your mind, having been reminded of them. This is not a vision. But this is what two workers confided in me, after questioning these former members in detail about exactly how it is. I also remember a seminar where an America pastor was recounting an early meeting with some Brazlians trying to talk to them on the subject of Spiritual Gifts. They were sitting down, and the Brazlian was saying that someone was going to have a gift. There as a lot of pressure this one pastor felt at the time, and for a while no one was having anything. Then he described a picture coming in his mind. Or something to that effect. It's basically like the mostly fake tongues you were "shandala shandala shandala" where people give into group pressure, not wanting to be seen as unspiritual. Moreover the information in these so called gifts are pretty vague and generic. You basically have completely dumb down and lower your expectations about what God did in the Old and New Testament where detailed and vivid actual visions were given. Pretty sad. If I can find the transcript I'll post the snippet of that meeting here.

One former worker at the time described it as thus. I believe he was sincere, but conditioned to gradually trusting his well-intentioned imagination:

"... Now as far as visions go, we know that there are different kinds of experiences that can fall under the heading "vision." The most awesome and powerful kind I have not experienced, which is where you actually see heavenly things like angels right there with you in the physical world, as solid as your furniture. When I have a gift, a revelation that I call a "vision," my experience is that it strongly resembles a memory....as you`ve observed, most people don`t talk much about this, so we kind of don`t have much to go on when we`re trying to understand these things in a concrete, practical way.... I think it`s better for the body that when servants are beginning to learn how to be used with gifts*, they bring in a number of false alarms which can be used to help teach them, than that they stifle everything because they aren`t "sure."... in the real world we have to learn how to use them properly, and that takes time and effort and guidance, and learning from mistakes, just like learning to drive a car... So anyway, my typical experience of receiving a vision goes very generally like this - I`m praying... [and finally] A picture appears in my mind - a single picture, in some detail. Then I try to get enough from the Lord to make something worth consulting, by sort of mentally probing around the edges of this picture, much in the same way that I would think about a memory picture that came into my mind. I`m still praying... trying to relax my mind`s natural tendency to "finish the Lord`s sentences for Him." Then usually additional images will come to me, related to the first image, again in much the same way as if I were recalling various images from my own memory. This similarity is why it`s so difficult to know for certain whether something is from the Lord or from my own imagination... So WHETHER OR NOT it seems to me to be from the Lord, I`ll write it down and turn it in to be discerned. ..."

Just to be fair he kept emphasizing this was his "experience" and not to take his word as definitive as there are different kinds of visions, etc.

Another former worker/member I know personally confirmed this was how he was made to understand it as well.

So this for me is basically another variation of the fake tongues. People packaging their own thoughts and ideas as "a gift" with flowerly imagery.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2024 10:13PM by formerICM.

More details from the last post: HERE'S WHAT THAT AMERICAN PASTOR (no longer there I'm told) said at a seminar in Poland about 10 or so more years ago:


When he first encountered the group decades ago, it was in the USA, where a Brazlian told him:

"In our church we have LOTS of visions and dreams".

In explaining "how" to have a vision, he indicated that we don`t need to try very hard (e.g. close our eyes tight, etc). He said there`s "no guarantee" that there would be a gift, nor was there any special "recipe" for having one. He then talked about his very first vision. His initial impressions were that

"I didn`t know it was a vision".

He described it vaguely as

"something, unlike what I had seen before"

and that he

"received some information that I never knew."

Visual information it would seem.

According to him here were the details of his first "vision" - he, in this vision, was talking with a ICM pastor about the

"need to buy a property" for the church. When asked "where?", the name of the town was revealed (probably somewhere near Chatham). So it was just a little bit of information. Of the vision, he said again, how he

"wasn`t even sure that it WAS a vision."

So he brought that "gift", to a ICM pastor, who somehow confirmed it as valid.

Thus, the first ICM church in that area was built in that town. Later on I heard this ended up being on protected wetlands, which were largely unsuitable to build upon. There was also a financial struggle working through those details. Why would the Lord give a "gift" like that?


He want on to say how members have to be "brave" when submitting gifts like he did. They must

"go and tell the pastor",

even if

"I THINK [that] I [maybe] have a vision",

and even if it might be

"from my imagination".

When asking the rhetorical question

"And what if it is?", he said "No problem!" and that the PASTOR would be the one to say

"No, this isn`t from the Lord."

because

"THEY have Spiritual discernment".

and that

"we`re [just] people" and that "WE have imaginations" - hence the need for "ONE [who] prophecies, and the OTHERS [who] judge".

He said how it`s a learning process for both sheep and pastors alike. He continued telling his story about those early days of Maranatha in North America. Among the men with him, he was apparently the only one who had had any visions.

Up until then, it was just that one, previously mentioned, vision.

Then the ICM pastor, from Brazil, called a special prayer meeting. There was something that the Lord had shown, that they needed to seek about. The pastor calling that meeting said that

"I want God to speak"

and that

"He`s going to use you" in the gifts.

All these men seemed quite nervous and unsure of themselves, due to their lack of experiences.

So they prayed, and nothing happened.

The pastor had them pray a couple times, but still nothing.

Meanwhile, the pastor who had the sole vision before, felt quite a lot of pressure, because it seemed like others were looking to him to be the one. I

couldn`t tell from the story how much of the details were being told humorously or not. But there was clearly some pressure for SOMEONE there to have a gift.

This pastor was even about to call in "the ladies", if these men failed to have any gifts! Talk about pressure!

Finally someone had a gift. They said

"I THINK I had something", etc.

I think he was pressured to give into indulging his imagination.

____________________________________________

TRANSCRIPT SNIPPET: " so some months came by, and I never had another, then a pastor cam e to visit, and he called 5 of us (the men) to come for a special time of prayer with him. So he sat us in a circle, and he said I have to make a decision, but I want God to speak. Amen. Yes. We agree. God must speak! And then he said "and he`s going to use you". Well OK. If you say so. Do any of you have visions? And all of them, pointed to [me] and said "he has visions" - but I only ever had one. Suddenly I felt a lot of pressure. He said "we`re going to pray, and God is going to speak to us". He had a lot of faith. So we prayed. They all prayed for God to speak. But my prayer was completely different "God have mercy on me! They`re expecting something from me and I have nothing! Can I have a vision please please! they`re expecting a lot!". They said amen. :-) And it was asked "Any visions? Any revelations? Any dreams?" :-) And everybody looked at me, and I said "I don`t have anything" So then he said "OK, we`re going to pray again" - and we`re not talking here of long prayers. 20 seconds. No problem. Amen. "Any gifts?", no, nobody had any. Then he said "We`re going to pray one more time, and if the Lord doesn`t speak we`re going to send all of you men out, and we`re going to bring in the ladies from the church, and I`m sure that God will speak through them" - now our prayer was completely different! "Oh God! Have mercy on us! Because my wife will never stop talking about this!" :-) We were not very spiritual. Amen. "Any gifts?". I had nothing. And this other guy says "I think I had something" :-) "Praise the Lord! Tell us the vision you had!" so he shared and then he shared the question he had asked the Lord, and the Lord showed through the vision the answer to the question the pastor had asked. His question was "I need to send two workers to go take care of another church, 5 hours away. I need 1 to lead the praise. And I need 1 to preach the word." - but he didn`t know us, so he didn`t know whom to send. And we didn`t know what the question was. So what was the vision? "Pastor I saw something. I saw two guys, one was that guy, and one was that guy, and they were standing on a rock, and one was playing a guitar, and one was reading the bible. I don`t know what it means". So the pastor was really happy. Because God used the 5 worst people in the world to speak! :-) We had no experience. But God wants to speak to us. He wants to speak to all of you. You don`t have to try. Just seek the Lord. Pray in the morning. Sing praises to the Lord. Pray in the evening. Read you bible. Go to church. Pray whenever there`s an opportunity to pray with someone else. Pray with them. And if you have this desire in your heart, to hear from the Lord, He`s going to speak to you". And you know what? When he speaks, you have to obey what he tells you. Because if you don`t obey his voice, he has no responsibility to speak to you again. If you have a gift, and give to the pastor, and he doesn`t pay attention to it, then it`s going to be a problem. You won`t have this problem here, I know. But when we receive the gifts as pastors we have to take them seriously. Sometimes we don`t understand exactly what the Lord is saying. That`s OK The pastor can take care of it. He can pray and the Lord will help. He can go to the other pastors."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2024 10:49PM by formerICM.