rancher,
You hit that dead on. I wish that alot of other people would recognize that fact.
I find it very interesting how most everyone in "leadership" talks about "how great
Proverbs was this morning" or "man Proverbs was really good this morning."
You know, I have studied Proverbs for years and it is really good, but, there
are times when I wonder if the people saying this are really paying attention to
what they are reading. Proverbs gives instructions on how to live out a Christ
like life. It instructs us in what to expect out of our "God called" leaders and
it instructs our leaders on how they are to conduct themselves.
Lets start at the begining, in Proverbs 1:2-4 it says To know wisdom and
instruction to perceive understanding. To receive the instruction of Wisdom,
Justice and Judgement and equity. To give stability to the simple, to the young
man knowledge and discretion.
This is telling us that a disciplined encounter with wisdom will produce a
perceptive spirit. Heb.5:14 states "by reason of use having their senses
excercised to desern both good and evil."
That dicernment when yoked with instruction, produces understanding or
practical wisdom that manifest itself in justice, judgement and equity. The
simle are literally those who are open to good impressions as well as bad
ones and can easily be led astray.
Verse 10 says "My son, if sinners entice thee, consent not."
Verse 19 says "So are the ways of everyone that is greedy for gain."
Like a boomarang their acts will come back upon them. There is a order in
the universe. What men SOW they do REEP. When greed becomes the
owner of a mans life, that man is destined fo destruction.

God bless everyone one on this site that has been hurt by these few people.

Beloved ones -

It is with great sadness I have read the posts here about ROC. I am not a member, and have not visited much, though I know others who have. ROC appeals to impessionable young people, those in sin, and those who have grown cold in their faith, but who love the music and the preaching that is very easy to understand and deals not so much with theology but the practical aspects of living the Christian life. The presence of the Lord can be felt at ROC when you attend. There is enthusiam, excitement, and joy there, but unfortunately, that's not all.

For all the good this ministry may do, it does help to keep your eyes open if the rumors that are smoldering below the surface persist. Yes, anyone can have a past. But that past must be dealt with through repentance, counseling, mentoring, and accountability. If the person involved refuses such a plan by mature Christians, then his autonomy should be held in question. Confession is cleansing and purifying. Putting sin behind us and walking in the light of Jesus is God's way. But others must be drawn in to help.

If funds are misused, again, accountability should be demanded.

Don't fault someone for living in a nice house. If it was a gift, the gift (though perhaps not the giver) should be made public. To all outward appearances, the vehicles seem to be over the top. And often, one of the signs of misuse of funds is the secret use of funds. If you're not doing anything wrong with the money, you have nothing to hide. Make it public. If you keep it all a deep, dark secret, perhaps there are sticky fingers in the pot.

One of the things I immediately wondered about when I learned how ROC functioned was this: Why no worship on Sunday? Isn't that the Christian's day of worship? What do ROC people do on Sunday? Worship elsewhere? Reserve this day for play? Just curious. But what happened to "...on the first day of the week...???"

There seems to be many ministries at ROC. Why not do several things really well rather than so many outreaches? Not that Richmond doesn't need them all. It would seem to me Saturday would be exhausting for some ROC people.

And, yes, followup on those who come to know Christ through this ministry would be helpful. Anyone can get caught up in the moment at an "altar call", and then just go back into the same life lived before. A discipleship time for new converts to return and receive prayer, instruction, Bible helps and counseling could benefit those who come to Christ through this ministry. Anyone knows a hot coal left to itself will die out and get cold, but kept on the heap will continue to stay warm and burn. And, yes, the numbers of converts somehow seems to be inflated.

I have seen the glow of Christ on the faces of some people at ROC. It was obvious they had come out of deep sin. They worshipped the Lord in a way that was lovely to observe - with deep passion. How sad it would be to see them become disillusioned if their leadership should fall.

I do hope reconciliation will come. I have no investment in this issue, except as a member of the body of Christ. But as another Christian, with a heart for purity in the church, I would love to see what is good about ROC continue and what is not good be corrected. Soon, in a new facility, there will be more room and opportunity to reach Richmond. What a black mark it would be on the cause of Christ to have that building filled with controversy. Why not "clean house" now and get the old stuff out of the way and have repentance and restoration come quickly. The leadership may have to take some drastic humbling steps like asking for mentoring, public and private confession, asking for a legitimate accounting system, trading some vehicles, realigning and re-evaluating ministries. What a wonderful witness that would be not only to those in the church, but those in the community. Revival would break out.

I will pray for ROC. I suggest that for all of us who care.

To the one who has asked for help in becoming restored, I would suggest much time on your knees in prayer, much time in the word of God, and finding an older mature Christian to pour out your heart to. Ask for wisdom from the Lord. Pray more, speak less. Even the early church had its difficulties and sometimes separation occured, however, the Lord is more honored when we seek Him for His answers. Dwelling together in unity is beautiful to see. But each must do his or her part. Stiff necks don't turn toward God.

I send each of you my love and prayers for a bright future.

There have been serious problems with various groups regarding "discipleship" and "shepherding."

Such practices have been abused.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

And see [www.culteducation.com]

Quote
rrmoderator
There have been serious problems with various groups regarding "discipleship" and "shepherding."

Such practices have been abused.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

And see [www.culteducation.com]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with those links that there have been serious problems with various groups regarding the "discipleship" and "shepherding" movements.

However, when the previous poster mentioned "discipleship", my take was that he was referring to the normal work of teaching and support that is needed to help a new convert grow into a more mature Christian, that takes place over a period of time for the person.

Here is what I said on this thread on Feb 27th, 2009 about the ROC (and there is no evidence to date that it has been addressed, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt when I quoted their salvation numbers, as I have thought all along that they are exaggerated by at least an order of magnitude, e.g. 10x) --

One really big thing that I have never understood, that I would like Pastor G (who is undoubtedly reading this thread of posts) to address very soon (and this will be a deal breaker for me if he doesn’t), is the issue of having a credible follow-up ministry for the people that are being saved. The main service (Six O’Clock Roc) has been full for over 2 years, so even with some turnover in attendance, only a small fraction of even the approximately 1,000 per year being saved in the main service, can be accommodated by regular attendance at the ROC.

That means that the vast majority need to be churched at another sound Bible church.

We’re constantly hearing about the 20,000+ per year that have been saved by ROC ministries in the last two years, and every week we hear the exact number that were saved that week (usually in the 400 to 600 range). But where is the follow-up? I have checked carefully, and out of the 132 ministries (count ‘em!) the critical ministry of making sure that as many as possible of these people get churched, does not exist!!

Granted that about 1/2 of the salvations are outside of the Richmond area, but that still leaves about 20,000 people in the last two years that need to be churched in the Richmond area. Do the math … or create a mathematical model … as to the amount of church construction (additions to existing churches and/or construction of new churches) that would be needed to accommodate that many people … 20 churches of 1,000, or 40 churches of 500, or 200 churches of 100. Anyone who can observe the Richmond area can easily conclude that only a tiny fraction of that about 20,000 people have been churched, i.e. show signs that they have been saved and are living a Christian life.

This is a sensitive issue for me, as I experienced untold hardship due to that exact issue … I got saved at a campus ministry, found a few books about ministries where the power of God and sound Bible teaching was very evident, and when I got back to my hometown I didn’t know how to find a church like that, and wound up in a denomination that while not a cult had a number of heresies and it was spiritually weak, and after several years of that I got disillusioned in my faith and went through some great problems, and while I eventually did find a powerful and sound church, my spiritual progress was set back for years, and I still see some of the effects today.

I will grant that it can be difficult to follow up on some of the converts, depending on where they are witnessed to, but I find it appalling that the ROC is asleep at the switch on this critical issue, and bloviate every week about the precise (and huge) number of people that got saved that week; and about the 20,000+ per year that got saved.

AW Stevens - I have posted this once before and I will again for your benefit. I used to be a faithful member of the ROC and remember specifically one night at Thursday night Bible Study (there used to be a question/answer session before the actually study) that someone asked Pastor G about the follow up to those who were saved and his response was that we are not responsible for the follow up - that is between them and God, we are only responsible to initially save them.

Also, at the Children's services, I know for a fact they "preach" to them and then ask who would like to have Jesus in their hearts. They ask for a showing of hands and then just count that number and report them as saved. I find this to be a weak practice, because you know how kids are - they want to raise their hands to be "counted". I never could accept that as them being saved.

That is contrary to common evangelical Christian teaching, which is that a new convert needs regular teaching and fellowship in a body of believers, in order to grow into a more mature Christian.

There is a major disconnect here, where a church has many halfway-house homes where a person in critical need can receive 6 months or more of live-in support for growth as a believer and a citizen; but provides no system of help at all for the vast majority of the new converts that it claims to produce.

Quote
OnceWasBlind09
AW Stevens - I have posted this once before and I will again for your benefit. I used to be a faithful member of the ROC and remember specifically one night at Thursday night Bible Study (there used to be a question/answer session before the actually study) that someone asked Pastor G about the follow up to those who were saved and his response was that we are not responsible for the follow up - that is between them and God, we are only responsible to initially save them.

More troubling is the manner in which he goes through stacks of “salvation cards” each main service, counting the number of salvations, ostensibly each card representing an actual conversion that was ministered by the ROC that week.

Quote
OnceWasBlind09
Also, at the Children's services, I know for a fact they "preach" to them and then ask who would like to have Jesus in their hearts. They ask for a showing of hands and then just count that number and report them as saved. I find this to be a weak practice, because you know how kids are - they want to raise their hands to be "counted". I never could accept that as them being saved.

I agree it is a messed up system, but it's the ROC and there is no accountability for anything they do and they still have so many followers - it's scary.