Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
thankfultobeout
()
Date: February 25, 2009 10:56AM
?'sROC: I agree with freeatlast, you need to pray for your family. Pray hard that their eyes will see the truth, their ears will hear the truth and God will give them wisdom to know the absolute truth. For when they do, they will no longer have that desire to be a part of the deception, and it is indeed deceptive. You need concrete evidence? What do you think all these blogs are? This is complete and obvious evidence of some of the wrongdoings at the ROC. I'm sure there are more than this. These people who write are telling the truth here. While you might not see all the evidences listed here, believe we are all telling the truth. As far as 90% being true according to B&D'sdad, I'm not sure where that statistic came from, but I prefer to believe we are all telling the truth, no exaggerations. Some people's hearts have not been open to the truth and they don't see it yet, therefore don't really know. But if they trust God to guide them in wisdom and understanding, they'll know. It is bound to happen. It has happened to so many of us.
Encourage your family to ask questions of those who have left, that is, if they are willing to make contact with them. Those still "in" are advised by Geronimo not to have contact with people who have left. Interesting, isn't it. That's pretty bold, to advise people with brains to do what he insists they do. And people believe him, and then they do what he says to do. I just don't get it. Maybe that is really what brain-washing is all about.
Pray for your family, pray for families and all the young people still at the ROC and pray God's mighty Hand upon all the innocent people who believe all the lies. It can't go on forever. But remember, ultimately, God is in control and He will reign and He wins, every single time.
Encourage your family to ask questions of those who have left, that is, if they are willing to make contact with them. Those still "in" are advised by Geronimo not to have contact with people who have left. Interesting, isn't it. That's pretty bold, to advise people with brains to do what he insists they do. And people believe him, and then they do what he says to do. I just don't get it. Maybe that is really what brain-washing is all about.
Pray for your family, pray for families and all the young people still at the ROC and pray God's mighty Hand upon all the innocent people who believe all the lies. It can't go on forever. But remember, ultimately, God is in control and He will reign and He wins, every single time.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
FreeAtLast
()
Date: February 25, 2009 02:11PM
Hi Thankful and Others,
There is someone who spoke to me recently and they are reading this discussion topic but they don't get the sense that Geronimo encourages the congregation or individuals to shun those members who have chosen to leave The ROC. I have read quite a few of those comments before in this group. Would any of you mind sharing again any specific stories of either: 1
1. Geronimo telling you to not associate with someone (friend, family member) who left the ROC.
2. A friend or family member of yours told (by Geronimo) not to associate with you after you left the ROC.
3. Any public or semi-public comments he made that speak of not associating with people who have left The ROC.
I'm referring specifically to Geronimo's comments, policy or practice trickling down from leadership through the body.
This was a common practice (both in private conversations, practice and unofficial policy and even got so bad as to have open statements of rebuke from the leadership to the body at Set Free). Someone I spoke with suggested to me that this is NOT going on at the ROC, certainly NOT by Geronimo. In all fairness, I'm asking if people have specific stories they can share that either prove or dispel this.
There is someone who spoke to me recently and they are reading this discussion topic but they don't get the sense that Geronimo encourages the congregation or individuals to shun those members who have chosen to leave The ROC. I have read quite a few of those comments before in this group. Would any of you mind sharing again any specific stories of either: 1
1. Geronimo telling you to not associate with someone (friend, family member) who left the ROC.
2. A friend or family member of yours told (by Geronimo) not to associate with you after you left the ROC.
3. Any public or semi-public comments he made that speak of not associating with people who have left The ROC.
I'm referring specifically to Geronimo's comments, policy or practice trickling down from leadership through the body.
This was a common practice (both in private conversations, practice and unofficial policy and even got so bad as to have open statements of rebuke from the leadership to the body at Set Free). Someone I spoke with suggested to me that this is NOT going on at the ROC, certainly NOT by Geronimo. In all fairness, I'm asking if people have specific stories they can share that either prove or dispel this.
Quote
thankfultobeout
Encourage your family to ask questions of those who have left, that is, if they are willing to make contact with them. Those still "in" are advised by Geronimo not to have contact with people who have left. Interesting, isn't it. That's pretty bold, to advise people with brains to do what he insists they do. And people believe him, and then they do what he says to do. I just don't get it. Maybe that is really what brain-washing is all about.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
FreeAtLast
()
Date: February 25, 2009 02:39PM
Again, for the benefit of those people who are currently reading this discussion thread...
Can anyone who has been to Geronimo's 'million dollar house' please share the following with the group?:
1. Estimated cost of the home or cost on any known statements of value?
2. Description of the home's amenities, size, number of rooms, condition?
3. I'm not going to share what I have been told about how he 'acquired' the home. I'd like to ASK if anyone knows/heard how he got the home if they can share it. I want to see if it is confirmed. What I heard I have a hard time believing.
Also, can anyone share again some of the specific disparities between the church leadership and the church 'laborers' lifestyles, incomes, spending habits? (i.e. the leadership have these incomes, this car, that home, ride this motorcycle and their values, the leadership go on these vacations and their estimated cost, etc. Then details of the laborers who work in the various ministries and live in the 'homes' as we used to call them and describe what income they earn, the hours/days they work, the food they get to eat, the cars they have, their living conditions, number of roommates, access to toiletries, spending money, vacations, etc.) It would be helpful to see the comparisons put together.
Can anyone who has been to Geronimo's 'million dollar house' please share the following with the group?:
1. Estimated cost of the home or cost on any known statements of value?
2. Description of the home's amenities, size, number of rooms, condition?
3. I'm not going to share what I have been told about how he 'acquired' the home. I'd like to ASK if anyone knows/heard how he got the home if they can share it. I want to see if it is confirmed. What I heard I have a hard time believing.
Also, can anyone share again some of the specific disparities between the church leadership and the church 'laborers' lifestyles, incomes, spending habits? (i.e. the leadership have these incomes, this car, that home, ride this motorcycle and their values, the leadership go on these vacations and their estimated cost, etc. Then details of the laborers who work in the various ministries and live in the 'homes' as we used to call them and describe what income they earn, the hours/days they work, the food they get to eat, the cars they have, their living conditions, number of roommates, access to toiletries, spending money, vacations, etc.) It would be helpful to see the comparisons put together.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
?'sROC
()
Date: February 26, 2009 03:11AM
thankfultobeout, I did not at all mean to imply that I thought people were telling lies on here. I meant that I know my family will not listen to me about things I read on the internet. I wholeheartedly believe what everyone is saying, and that is what breaks my heart even more.
Freeatlast, I do not know how much the house costs, but here is what I know for sure:
-they moved recently(closer to ROC) into waht has been described as a huge house. I heard it was a gift to them.
-G was drving a Hummer got tired of it, so got a new vehicle.
-I was personally there a couple years ago when a brand new bike was driven in as a gift to Rsen. From what was said(a whole ago so can't remember exactly) but I got the impression it wasf from the church. I don't know much about bikes, but I have never seeen one like it on the road-it was definitely top dollar.
Almost everything that I have heard of G getting from my family-they say that it is all gifts from members. My question is-if it is a gift(which I do not believe) then why as a godly man, leader of a church, renovating a new huge building-why wouldnt you say"I'd rather that money go to the church."
they are still called homes. the info I have gathered about the "homes" : The people in the homes are not given money(it is said it is because drug addicts shouldn't have money at their disposal). The homes are packed. I have heard of them sleeping on the floor. They limit your time with your family/friends. If your family comes on Sat to check on you, you get very limited time, and they definitely keep their eyes on you. a friend of mine went to see her sister and got about 5 min to speak to her. Their family coming to the ROC services is the only way I have heard of that they can see each other, and even then their is some sneaking invloved. People in the homes have to work in one of the various"ministries" to "earn" their keep.
I went onto the Soulwinning soiders site and found some interesting things.
under ranks- it says "armour bearers are is to assist and serve the pastor as unto the Lord. The Armour Bearer also provides security at church and at outreaches."
Here is the link to red the guidlines of this ministy-(i've never heard of a ministry you can get kicked out of!)
[soulwinningsoldiers.com]
those are just some tidbits I have found in my "research", I'll share more as I find it.
Freeatlast, I do not know how much the house costs, but here is what I know for sure:
-they moved recently(closer to ROC) into waht has been described as a huge house. I heard it was a gift to them.
-G was drving a Hummer got tired of it, so got a new vehicle.
-I was personally there a couple years ago when a brand new bike was driven in as a gift to Rsen. From what was said(a whole ago so can't remember exactly) but I got the impression it wasf from the church. I don't know much about bikes, but I have never seeen one like it on the road-it was definitely top dollar.
Almost everything that I have heard of G getting from my family-they say that it is all gifts from members. My question is-if it is a gift(which I do not believe) then why as a godly man, leader of a church, renovating a new huge building-why wouldnt you say"I'd rather that money go to the church."
they are still called homes. the info I have gathered about the "homes" : The people in the homes are not given money(it is said it is because drug addicts shouldn't have money at their disposal). The homes are packed. I have heard of them sleeping on the floor. They limit your time with your family/friends. If your family comes on Sat to check on you, you get very limited time, and they definitely keep their eyes on you. a friend of mine went to see her sister and got about 5 min to speak to her. Their family coming to the ROC services is the only way I have heard of that they can see each other, and even then their is some sneaking invloved. People in the homes have to work in one of the various"ministries" to "earn" their keep.
I went onto the Soulwinning soiders site and found some interesting things.
under ranks- it says "armour bearers are is to assist and serve the pastor as unto the Lord. The Armour Bearer also provides security at church and at outreaches."
Here is the link to red the guidlines of this ministy-(i've never heard of a ministry you can get kicked out of!)
[soulwinningsoldiers.com]
those are just some tidbits I have found in my "research", I'll share more as I find it.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
FreeAtLast
()
Date: February 26, 2009 05:03AM
Hey ?'sAtROC or others who know,
Back at Set Free we had "The Homes" and "The Ranches" The Home were closer to the church and the Ranches were farther out from society. The Homes were used by the pastor or leaders and also used to house lots of people who work in the various ministries or were on the dance teams (posses) and all that. It was a total mixture. Yes, some people were recovered addicts but that was only a small percentage. The majority were simply young and middle aged people who were 'working' in the various ministries.
The "Ranches" which were out in the outskirt cities or in rural-like areas were used as both rehabilitation and (unspoken of) as places to send someone they want to discipline by isolating/ostracizing them. Officially, the Ranches were used to 'rehab' addicts. But lots of people were sent there for various reasons.
The Homes were never used for rehabilitation. They were for pastors, deacons and their families and also to house/warehouse the 'workers/laborers' for the church.
One of my questions was about the Homes in the sense I mention above. When you described the "homes" at the Roc (above) it sounded a little bit more like "The Ranches" I remember from Set Free.
The Reason I felt that was that you said "he people in the homes are not given money(it is said it is because drug addicts shouldn't have money at their disposal). The homes are packed. I have heard of them sleeping on the floor."
The point I wanted to learn is if Geronimo is doing the same as his father. Warehousing eager people who decide to devote their time and work to the church and are then sandwiched in these 'homes', worked endless hours, given no pay, struggle for even tiny amounts of money to buy basic toiletries, watched constantly, packed into rooms 5 and 6 at a time, some people sleeping on the floors, eating local grocery store castaway food donations and yet they are the workforce of the church providing the church the ministries that garner money. I've been reading the messages for the last few months and have felt that this is what is going on at the ROC but someone questioned it so I wanted to ask more directly if indeed that is going on.
Also, if the ROC has something like "The Ranches" or (rehab/work homes) meant for 'rehabilitation purposes' can anyone say if they have on staff a trained medical professional and a trained therapist as would be legally required of a therapeutic environment? And, back at Set Free those harsher homes were often used to send people the pastor wasn't liking at the time, or sent for disciplinary reasons. They were used unofficially (unspoken in public) as discipline or isolation destinations as well as 'rehab' facilities. Does anyone know if that is being mimicked in any way at The ROC? Unofficial methods of disciplining or isolating members who are asking too many questions, getting into trouble or the pastor doesn't like for any reason?
(again, I'm holding this conversation for the benefit of a couple of people who are reading this thread and I feel need to see the answers, whatever they are.)
Back at Set Free we had "The Homes" and "The Ranches" The Home were closer to the church and the Ranches were farther out from society. The Homes were used by the pastor or leaders and also used to house lots of people who work in the various ministries or were on the dance teams (posses) and all that. It was a total mixture. Yes, some people were recovered addicts but that was only a small percentage. The majority were simply young and middle aged people who were 'working' in the various ministries.
The "Ranches" which were out in the outskirt cities or in rural-like areas were used as both rehabilitation and (unspoken of) as places to send someone they want to discipline by isolating/ostracizing them. Officially, the Ranches were used to 'rehab' addicts. But lots of people were sent there for various reasons.
The Homes were never used for rehabilitation. They were for pastors, deacons and their families and also to house/warehouse the 'workers/laborers' for the church.
One of my questions was about the Homes in the sense I mention above. When you described the "homes" at the Roc (above) it sounded a little bit more like "The Ranches" I remember from Set Free.
The Reason I felt that was that you said "he people in the homes are not given money(it is said it is because drug addicts shouldn't have money at their disposal). The homes are packed. I have heard of them sleeping on the floor."
The point I wanted to learn is if Geronimo is doing the same as his father. Warehousing eager people who decide to devote their time and work to the church and are then sandwiched in these 'homes', worked endless hours, given no pay, struggle for even tiny amounts of money to buy basic toiletries, watched constantly, packed into rooms 5 and 6 at a time, some people sleeping on the floors, eating local grocery store castaway food donations and yet they are the workforce of the church providing the church the ministries that garner money. I've been reading the messages for the last few months and have felt that this is what is going on at the ROC but someone questioned it so I wanted to ask more directly if indeed that is going on.
Also, if the ROC has something like "The Ranches" or (rehab/work homes) meant for 'rehabilitation purposes' can anyone say if they have on staff a trained medical professional and a trained therapist as would be legally required of a therapeutic environment? And, back at Set Free those harsher homes were often used to send people the pastor wasn't liking at the time, or sent for disciplinary reasons. They were used unofficially (unspoken in public) as discipline or isolation destinations as well as 'rehab' facilities. Does anyone know if that is being mimicked in any way at The ROC? Unofficial methods of disciplining or isolating members who are asking too many questions, getting into trouble or the pastor doesn't like for any reason?
(again, I'm holding this conversation for the benefit of a couple of people who are reading this thread and I feel need to see the answers, whatever they are.)
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
AW Stevens
()
Date: February 28, 2009 05:59AM
Pastor G in his sermon last night in effect pointed me to this site … I didn’t realize that people were posting critical things on the Internet about the church and its leadership, until last night when he described in generality the nature of the allegations, said that they were being posted on the Internet, and he made litigation threats toward the people who are posting the material.
Granted, the bloggers here are posting anonymously, but that it logical given the litigation threats …
There may be other such Internet sites, but a simple Google search with keywords located this thread of posts about the issues, and there is a ton of things here! When a leader responds to his critics publicly as much as he does, it can backfire as it merely gives more publicity to the comments of the critics.
He said that he has a “bad lawyer” (bad in the sense of legally aggressive and tough), and could sue these critics for enough money to significantly add to the finances needed for the construction of the Big House, and likely win the judgment. If the allegations are true, then they are not libel … and if they are true and he then tries to file a lawsuit, he and the church could face countersuits, legal investigations, and official investigations, which could be very inconvenient for him in that event.
You folks might want to at least get a one hour legal consult with an appropriate attorney, to ask “how do we proceed?” and “how do we protect ourselves legally”? It might be worth a few hundred bucks to at least take that first step.
Do not be intimidated by legal threats if they are bogus!
I have been at the church several years, and am in the bus ministry, and there is certainly a lot of real ministry and revival at the church, with all the people being saved (an average of 20+ per week respond to a clear salvation message at Six O’Clock Roc, which also means that plenty of unsaved people are being invited to the service), but I have often had a sense that “something is not right” spiritually at the church, and I have seen a number of good churches and ministries in my lifetime, to make the comparison.
Pastor G’s own testimony about what happened to the church in California, that he has mentioned in some of his sermons, really speaks to this issue … that a powerful revival ministry can be completely shut down by the Lord if there are serious personal problems in the lives of the pastor and/or the pastoral staff. That is all that needs to be said about the ROC at this point in time.
I have been present in a couple “church crashes” in the past, and if this one is going to come down, I don’t want to be anywhere around when it does.
One really big thing that I have never understood, that I would like Pastor G (who is undoubtedly reading this thread of posts) to address very soon (and this will be a deal breaker for me if he doesn’t), is the issue of having a credible follow-up ministry for the people that are being saved. The main service (Six O’Clock Roc) has been full for over 2 years, so even with some turnover in attendance, only a small fraction of even the approximately 1,000 per year being saved in the main service, can be accommodated by regular attendance at the ROC.
That means that the vast majority need to be churched at another sound Bible church.
We’re constantly hearing about the 20,000+ per year that have been saved by ROC ministries in the last two years, and every week we hear the exact number that were saved that week (usually in the 400 to 600 range). But where is the follow-up? I have checked carefully, and out of the 132 ministries (count ‘em!) the critical ministry of making sure that as many as possible of these people get churched, does not exist!!
Granted that about 1/2 of the salvations are outside of the Richmond area, but that still leaves about 20,000 people in the last two years that need to be churched in the Richmond area. Do the math … or create a mathematical model … as to the amount of church construction (additions to existing churches and/or construction of new churches) that would be needed to accommodate that many people … 20 churches of 1,000, or 40 churches of 500, or 200 churches of 100. Anyone who can observe the Richmond area can easily conclude that only a tiny fraction of that about 20,000 people have been churched, i.e. show signs that they have been saved and are living a Christian life.
This is a sensitive issue for me, as I experienced untold hardship due to that exact issue … I got saved at a campus ministry, found a few books about ministries where the power of God and sound Bible teaching was very evident, and when I got back to my hometown I didn’t know how to find a church like that, and wound up in a denomination that while not a cult had a number of heresies and it was spiritually weak, and after several years of that I got disillusioned in my faith and went through some great problems, and while I eventually did find a powerful and sound church, my spiritual progress was set back for years, and I still see some of the effects today.
I will grant that it can be difficult to follow up on some of the converts, depending on where they are witnessed to, but I find it appalling that the ROC is asleep at the switch on this critical issue, and bloviate every week about the precise (and huge) number of people that got saved that week; and about the 20,000+ per year that got saved.
Granted, the bloggers here are posting anonymously, but that it logical given the litigation threats …
There may be other such Internet sites, but a simple Google search with keywords located this thread of posts about the issues, and there is a ton of things here! When a leader responds to his critics publicly as much as he does, it can backfire as it merely gives more publicity to the comments of the critics.
He said that he has a “bad lawyer” (bad in the sense of legally aggressive and tough), and could sue these critics for enough money to significantly add to the finances needed for the construction of the Big House, and likely win the judgment. If the allegations are true, then they are not libel … and if they are true and he then tries to file a lawsuit, he and the church could face countersuits, legal investigations, and official investigations, which could be very inconvenient for him in that event.
You folks might want to at least get a one hour legal consult with an appropriate attorney, to ask “how do we proceed?” and “how do we protect ourselves legally”? It might be worth a few hundred bucks to at least take that first step.
Do not be intimidated by legal threats if they are bogus!
I have been at the church several years, and am in the bus ministry, and there is certainly a lot of real ministry and revival at the church, with all the people being saved (an average of 20+ per week respond to a clear salvation message at Six O’Clock Roc, which also means that plenty of unsaved people are being invited to the service), but I have often had a sense that “something is not right” spiritually at the church, and I have seen a number of good churches and ministries in my lifetime, to make the comparison.
Pastor G’s own testimony about what happened to the church in California, that he has mentioned in some of his sermons, really speaks to this issue … that a powerful revival ministry can be completely shut down by the Lord if there are serious personal problems in the lives of the pastor and/or the pastoral staff. That is all that needs to be said about the ROC at this point in time.
I have been present in a couple “church crashes” in the past, and if this one is going to come down, I don’t want to be anywhere around when it does.
One really big thing that I have never understood, that I would like Pastor G (who is undoubtedly reading this thread of posts) to address very soon (and this will be a deal breaker for me if he doesn’t), is the issue of having a credible follow-up ministry for the people that are being saved. The main service (Six O’Clock Roc) has been full for over 2 years, so even with some turnover in attendance, only a small fraction of even the approximately 1,000 per year being saved in the main service, can be accommodated by regular attendance at the ROC.
That means that the vast majority need to be churched at another sound Bible church.
We’re constantly hearing about the 20,000+ per year that have been saved by ROC ministries in the last two years, and every week we hear the exact number that were saved that week (usually in the 400 to 600 range). But where is the follow-up? I have checked carefully, and out of the 132 ministries (count ‘em!) the critical ministry of making sure that as many as possible of these people get churched, does not exist!!
Granted that about 1/2 of the salvations are outside of the Richmond area, but that still leaves about 20,000 people in the last two years that need to be churched in the Richmond area. Do the math … or create a mathematical model … as to the amount of church construction (additions to existing churches and/or construction of new churches) that would be needed to accommodate that many people … 20 churches of 1,000, or 40 churches of 500, or 200 churches of 100. Anyone who can observe the Richmond area can easily conclude that only a tiny fraction of that about 20,000 people have been churched, i.e. show signs that they have been saved and are living a Christian life.
This is a sensitive issue for me, as I experienced untold hardship due to that exact issue … I got saved at a campus ministry, found a few books about ministries where the power of God and sound Bible teaching was very evident, and when I got back to my hometown I didn’t know how to find a church like that, and wound up in a denomination that while not a cult had a number of heresies and it was spiritually weak, and after several years of that I got disillusioned in my faith and went through some great problems, and while I eventually did find a powerful and sound church, my spiritual progress was set back for years, and I still see some of the effects today.
I will grant that it can be difficult to follow up on some of the converts, depending on where they are witnessed to, but I find it appalling that the ROC is asleep at the switch on this critical issue, and bloviate every week about the precise (and huge) number of people that got saved that week; and about the 20,000+ per year that got saved.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 28, 2009 07:57AM
To whom it may concern;
This Web site has been sued several times.
None of those lawsuits prevailed.
In some cases the plaintiffs were ordered to pay costs or fees.
Landmark Education, a private for-profit company that has revenues of $50 million per year, sued this site attempting to force disclosure of anonymous members of this message board.
A federal judge refused every effort made by Landmark to achieve that goal and ultimately the company gave up and dismissed its own lawsuit with prejudice, which means it can never be filed again.
Federal courts in New Jersey, which is the state where the Ross Institute (sponsor of this message board) is located, have established the precedent that no public message board need disclose anyone's identity that posts on it and that the board owner is not legally liable concerning the posts made.
This Web site has been sued several times.
None of those lawsuits prevailed.
In some cases the plaintiffs were ordered to pay costs or fees.
Landmark Education, a private for-profit company that has revenues of $50 million per year, sued this site attempting to force disclosure of anonymous members of this message board.
A federal judge refused every effort made by Landmark to achieve that goal and ultimately the company gave up and dismissed its own lawsuit with prejudice, which means it can never be filed again.
Federal courts in New Jersey, which is the state where the Ross Institute (sponsor of this message board) is located, have established the precedent that no public message board need disclose anyone's identity that posts on it and that the board owner is not legally liable concerning the posts made.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
obadiah2001
()
Date: March 03, 2009 12:55AM
For those who want to know about G's new home they can goto the Richmond City Court house and look under the computer for Richmond Outreach Center ( free public info )and it will list all the properties they own in Richmond and the tax computer will give you the cost of it. The latest home was the one he lives in. none of the properties are listed under his name.
I started going to the ROC when there was not many people (like maybe 75) and stayed with them for3 years. I saw alot of bad stuff but I know God moved me out of there for a reason. I pray that if any of what I read today is true that God would open the eyes of the blind there to leave soon. I believe in the helping of people like the ROC does and I just hope they continue to live that
I started going to the ROC when there was not many people (like maybe 75) and stayed with them for3 years. I saw alot of bad stuff but I know God moved me out of there for a reason. I pray that if any of what I read today is true that God would open the eyes of the blind there to leave soon. I believe in the helping of people like the ROC does and I just hope they continue to live that
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
thankfultobeout
()
Date: March 03, 2009 04:18AM
To AWStevens and the statements: Pastor G in his sermon last night in effect pointed me to this site … I didn’t realize that people were posting critical things on the Internet about the church and its leadership, until last night when he described in generality the nature of the allegations, said that they were being posted on the Internet, and he made litigation threats toward the people who are posting the material.
Granted, the bloggers here are posting anonymously, but that it logical given the litigation threats …
There may be other such Internet sites, but a simple Google search with keywords located this thread of posts about the issues, and there is a ton of things here! When a leader responds to his critics publicly as much as he does, it can backfire as it merely gives more publicity to the comments of the critics.
He said that he has a “bad lawyer” (bad in the sense of legally aggressive and tough), and could sue these critics for enough money to significantly add to the finances needed for the construction of the Big House, and likely win the judgment. If the allegations are true, then they are not libel … and if they are true and he then tries to file a lawsuit, he and the church could face countersuits, legal investigations, and official investigations, which could be very inconvenient for him in that event.
Interesting that your pastor in his sermon is sending out threats instead of teaching on God's Word. Interesting too that he states he has a "bad" lawyer on board. All I can say is that desperate people say desperate things. He knows the truth and knows that many people know the truth, no one should feel threatened by what he says. He's just showing off, once again. Pray for him and his entourage. There is much good within the ministry as there are many good people serving who have not discovered the real "G". Maybe they will and maybe they won't. But when they do, they'll want to leave as soon as they can. It happens every time. God bless you.
Granted, the bloggers here are posting anonymously, but that it logical given the litigation threats …
There may be other such Internet sites, but a simple Google search with keywords located this thread of posts about the issues, and there is a ton of things here! When a leader responds to his critics publicly as much as he does, it can backfire as it merely gives more publicity to the comments of the critics.
He said that he has a “bad lawyer” (bad in the sense of legally aggressive and tough), and could sue these critics for enough money to significantly add to the finances needed for the construction of the Big House, and likely win the judgment. If the allegations are true, then they are not libel … and if they are true and he then tries to file a lawsuit, he and the church could face countersuits, legal investigations, and official investigations, which could be very inconvenient for him in that event.
Interesting that your pastor in his sermon is sending out threats instead of teaching on God's Word. Interesting too that he states he has a "bad" lawyer on board. All I can say is that desperate people say desperate things. He knows the truth and knows that many people know the truth, no one should feel threatened by what he says. He's just showing off, once again. Pray for him and his entourage. There is much good within the ministry as there are many good people serving who have not discovered the real "G". Maybe they will and maybe they won't. But when they do, they'll want to leave as soon as they can. It happens every time. God bless you.
Re: Richmond Outreach Center
Posted by:
AW Stevens
()
Date: March 04, 2009 06:38AM
Quote
FreeAtLast
Again, for the benefit of those people who are currently reading this discussion thread...
Can anyone who has been to Geronimo's 'million dollar house' please share the following with the group?:
1. Estimated cost of the home or cost on any known statements of value?
2. Description of the home's amenities, size, number of rooms, condition?
3. I'm not going to share what I have been told about how he 'acquired' the home. I'd like to ASK if anyone knows/heard how he got the home if they can share it. I want to see if it is confirmed. What I heard I have a hard time believing.
5617 ST JAMES CT Richmond, VA 23225
Sold to RICHMOND OUTREACH CENTER INC by GODDARD WARREN M III & SONIA L on March 27, 2008, for $670,000. It was “PAID IN FULL LLC” by ROC, which may indicate that the full cost was paid by the ROC, and that the house has no mortgage, but that point needs further analysis. Since the house belongs to the church, it is a parsonage, which is defined as the residence of a member of the clergy, as provided by the parish or church.
The house has 3,261 square feet of finished living space, and the lot size is 0.489 acre, and the house was built in 1988. There is a permanent wooded area and a creek directly behind the rear property boundary. Saint James Court is comprised of a succession of generally similarly sized houses and lots. It is located in the City of Richmond, in the area just east of Powhite Parkway and just north of Forest Hill Avenue.
[www.ci.richmond.va.us]
The 2008 Residential(All) report, indicated that for this property, the total basement area is 1,994 square feet, of which 1,000 square feet is finished. So the 3,261 square feet square feet of finished living space, does not include the 994 square feet of basement area that is unfinished. The movie theater is in the basement area, and I wonder if that is included in the figure for finished living space; technically you would think that it should be. Since the terrain slopes downhill to the rear of the lot, you enter the basement from ground level at the rear of the house; while the basement is underground at the front of the house, and the front door of the house at near ground level enters the first floor of the house, which is above the basement level.
In the quotes below, the designation "One Story+ (1.25 1.5 1.75)" is not very clear, because the house has at least 3 levels, even if some of the higher ones have a smaller floor space than the first floor.
It is a nice house with high quality design and construction, amply sized, in a nice neighborhood, and it is in good condition, and is well furnished, but certainly no "mansion" or even "McMansion".
A successful lawyer or doctor could typically afford a house like this, and if he had a wife and several children living there, could easily utilize all the living space.
It is common for the senior pastor of a successful evangelical church of about 2,000 active members, to have a salary package of $150,000 to $200,000 per year, and that would provide the ability to buy a home such as this.
Certain other issues (regarding morals, ethics and ministry) that have been raised in this thread of posts, are far more troublesome than the issue of the house that he lives in.
Lack of financial transparency is a major issue, because churches typically provide their members with annual church financial statements that have detailed accounting for pertinent items, including the value of the parsonage and the value of the salary packages for the pastoral staff members.
Some of these URLs are long, and may or may not work in your browser, and/or may or may not be easy to copy and paste, so I provided TinyURL versions as well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[eservices.ci.richmond.va.us]
Above URL in TinyURL -- [tinyurl.com]
[enter the street address under Residential Search]
Property Type: Residential
Improvement Staus: Improved
Property Class: All
Sale Date between 3/3/2008 and 3/3/2009
Basement: NoPreference
Records Returned: 2 (click on a result for details)
PIN Address Sale date Sale price Year built Number of Stories Finished SqFt Apartment Units
Basement Land SqFt
C0050168048 005617 ST JAMES CT 3/27/2008 670000 1988 1.0 3261 0 yes 21302
C0050168048 005617 ST JAMES CT 3/27/2008 0 1988 1.0 3261 0 yes 21302
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[eservices.ci.richmond.va.us]
Above URL in TinyURL -- [tinyurl.com]
Property: 5617 ST JAMES CT Map Reference Number: C0050168048
Parcel
Street Address: 5617 ST JAMES CT Richmond, VA 23225-
Owner: RICHMOND OUTREACH CENTER INC
Mailing Address: 4551 COX RD STE 210 , GLEN ALLEN 23060
Property Class: 115 - R One Story+ (1.25, 1.5, 1.75)
Land Type: Homesite
Current Assessment
Land Value: $85,000
Improvement Value: $556,200
Assessment Nbhd: 240 - Westover Hills West
Exemption Code: 401
Description
Parcel Sqrft: 21302
Acreage: 0.489
Property Description 1: WESTOVER HILLS WEST L25 BF SC
Property Description 2: 0095.51X0212.46 IRG0000.000
Utilities
Electricity: Yes
Gas: Yes
Water: Yes
Sewer: Yes
-----------------------------------------------------
[eservices.ci.richmond.va.us]
Above URL in TinyURL -- [tinyurl.com]
005617 ST JAMES CT
ASSESSMENT
PROPERTY ADDRESSES: 5617 ST JAMES CT
MAP REFERENCE NUMBER: C0050168048
GPIN:
OWNER: RICHMOND OUTREACH CENTER INC
ASSESSMENT MAILING ADDRESS: 4551 COX RD STE 210
ASSESSMENT MAILING CITY: GLEN ALLEN
ASSESSMENT MAILING STATE: VA
ASSESSMENT MAILING ZIP CODE: 23060
PROPERTY CLASS DESCRIPTION: R One Story+ (1.25 1.5 1.75)
LAND USE DESCRIPTION: Single Family
LAND VALUE: 85,000
IMPROVEMENT VALUE: 556,200
TOTAL VALUE: 641,200
STORIES: 1.0
NUMBER OF ROOMS: 10
SQFT OF FINISHED LIVING AREA: 3261
YEAR BUILT: 1988
PROPERTY DESCRIPTION: WESTOVER HILLS WEST L25 BF SC
0095.51X0212.46 IRG0000.000
SALE INFORMATION:
DATE CONSIDERATION GRANTOR DEED REFERENCE #
6/4/1987 n/a n/a ID000128 00355
11/15/1990 360,000 n/a ID00252 0747
3/27/2008 670,000 GODDARD WARREN M III & SONIA L IDID2008 8291
3/27/2008 670,000 GODDARD WARREN M III & SONIA L IDID20088291
3/27/2008 n/a PAID IN FULL LLC IDID20088292
3/27/2008 n/a PAID IN FULL LLC IDID2008 8292
ASSESSMENT INFORMATION:
EFFECTIVE DATE CHANGE DESCRIPTION LAND VALUE BUILDING VALUE TOTAL VALUE
1/1/2009 Reassessment 85,000 556,200 641,200
1/1/2008 Reassessment 85,000 556,200 641,200
1/1/2007 Reassessment 85,000 556,200 641,200
1/1/2006 Reassessment 71,700 496,600 568,300
1/1/2005 Reassessment 65,200 455,600 520,800
1/1/2004 Reassessment 60,900 425,800 486,700
1/1/2003 Reassessment 58,000 405,500 463,500
1/1/2002 Reassessment 50,400 352,600 403,000
1/1/2001 Correction 42,700 352,300 395,000
1/1/1998 35,000 323,000 358,000
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