Wow, Monica, you have misread my intentions. I don't support Hassan if he is unethical (and it sounds like he is), using NLP or LGAT techniques, in fact, just the opposite. I stated that and I stand by it. I don't want to see other therapists behaving in unethical ways either. I appreciated the information you shared and clearly it is an area where you are an expert and I'm not. I also appreciate the trouble you went to in writing some excellent information and plan to follow up in learning more.

I'm not a troll. I'm not a cult apologist nor "cult-expert" apologist. I know you deal with plenty of that on RR. I am a person with mixed information trying to find out what is what. I did read "Snapping" some time back and assumed it contained reliable information, for instance. Also, I've had therapy and it helped me greatly. I also know people who did not have it and really needed to have it but because there is prejudice against therapy did not. (General therapy, not for cult exiting). I am pro-therapy when it is needed because I've seen people I care about suffer due to prejudice against it. But, I happen to agree with you that "therapism" is also a danger for people. I've seen people who appear to live with a diagnosis as their identity. Bad therapy, for sure.

The post took me a long time to write. I'm not a great writer, but the portion in quotes I was not attributing to you, but rather was making a point about cult involvement impacting people's lives. The "strange anecdote" was about a therapist who needed better information about cults and who was rather cultlike while claiming not to be. The point was that people in cults need some way to disengage from the cult mindset or they may end up with another cult or cultlike group. I was not in any way referring to you and shortly after writing that, looked at TFT tapping on this site and discovered that you had spoken out on it. I'm happy to see that and plan to read it when people try to talk it up to me.

I do appreciate the clarification about the boundaries between being a cult intervention specialist (information and education) and professional therapists of various types, rrmoderator. Again, thanks for the fine work that RR does and for the clarifications. I know you get a lot of flack. So, when I read Monica's reply I said, "Ouch"I took that into account. Also, sorry about the name confusion, Monica. My memory is not the greatest.

Also, I tried to post earlier but got an error message. So, if the previous post is in the pipeline, please delete it and just let this one stand. This is a clearer post.

Hi All,

Mr Ross:just Mo, but I don't think there is neccessarily an ethical problem in combining education and therapy.Career counseling, drug addiction counseling, gambling counseling all seem to combine both, and are accepted as good practice.

Probably a more questionable issue would be if a therapist didn't identify themselves as such first , and get informed consent before counseling.

Maple, there definitely seemed to be an "ouch" factor to Dr Pignottis comments; am glad you were sensible and wisely took it so well.

Dr Pignotti apparently was once a member of a group that felt strongly against psychology as a profession; this may potentially be still coloring her views on this issue, though she has also indicated she does support some therapy.

I do find it interesting that Dr Pignotti acknowledges that some NLP techniques may be used coercively, but I am not sure if she makes the same acknowledgement with the same strength about the potential for coercive manipulation in religious groups. If so, it would seem that help might be needed in some cases to leave a coercive situation, and that this may have after effects.
.


IMO,it is the potential use of coercive techniques that can distinguish the situation from straight PTSD; perhaps stockholm syndrome, or battered wives syndrome, may be better comparisons.

And again, everyones experiences and needs are different.Some people have come from difficult situations and may need therapeutic help, for others the experience was very mild.And some may not have experienced coercive techniques or negative experiences at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2012 12:17AM by yasmin.

yasmin:

Substance abuse, gambling and carrer counseling would typically be sought out by someone interested in such help, which is unlike a cult intervention.

Cult interventions are typically at the beginning a surprise, much like a substance abuse intervention.

A licensed professional counselor is expected to recieve formal informed consent. My understanding is that there would be required paperwork before such counseling begins, which is signed off by someone receiving such counseling from a licensed professional.

Steve Hassan's book, thus poses a rather serious ethical dilema.

Dr. Mann points out that Hassan's "approach includes elements of counseling. And there is nothing specifically mentioned about the cult member being counseled explicitly understanding that they are participating in counseling, i.e. informed consent. In fact, it appears that Hassan does not see the need to offer his SIA counseling as a matter of choice, but instead uses the family dynamic as tool to keep the cult member talking and then to spring his counseling upon them without informed consent. All professional counseling requires such an understanding and explicit consent before it begins. Counseling, by its very nature, is persuasive and constitutes an unequal power dynamic. A licensed professional counselor that does not know this can do harm to people. People must agree and be amenable to receiving counseling, regardless of what the setting or stated goal may be. The ends do not justify the means. This principle is often cited concerning the questionable behavior of cults, and should apply to those attempting to help cult members as well."

In my opinion cult interventions are best done as an educational process, which precludes this ethical conflict.

It seems to me that Dr. Mann has correctly pointed out what is wrong with Mr. Hassan's approach.

Mental health professionals often work with affected families and individuals before and/or after cult interventions. But the idea that this somehow can be combined along with cult intervention work is deeply problematic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2012 01:13AM by rrmoderator.

Once again, Yasmin, you make an erroneous assumption. I left that group you refer to over 35 years ago and have completely repudiated its belief system. Just in case you have the idea that I remain indoctrinated after over 35 years, earlier on after leaving, I was quite uncritical of the mental health profession and highly supportive of it because I naively had no idea about its problems. If I had leftovers of having been in this group, that would not have been the case. I thought the mental health profession was wonderful for many, many years after leaving that group. I went to therapy myself after leaving and had no problem whatsoever or any negative feelings about the therapist I went to. I was also, at one time highly supportive of the anti-cult community, including Steve Hassan. I only became disillusioned when I began to see the hypocrisy and found that some had become what they were fighting.

It was only after I witnessed the very real damage done and became aware of the very real problems of harm done in the name of "therapy", that I began to write about it and become an activist in this area. It would be best if you would not make unwarranted assumptions about someone you have never even met. So no, my views on the mental health profession have nothing to do with the group I was in and everything to do with seeing the very real casualties of bogus mental health practice. I get emails, phone calls and have encounters with such people on a regular basis. The damage is very real. That along with my familiarity with the scientific literature on therapies that do harm has changed my mind and left me with a much less positive attitude that has nothing whatsoever to do with the group I was in.

As for harm from undue influence, of course there can be harm. I have never denied this. You really do have a knack for straw man arguments, Yasmin. Such harm can come from a group considered to be a cult and it can also come from coercive influences within the anti-cult community crusaders who obtained the easiest possible degrees to get and still be licensed and now offer "therapy". I know plenty of ex-cultists who have been burned by so-called "cult" experts and their bogus, manipulative and expensive "therapy". Some have had board complaints filed against them and no longer practice, thank goodness.

My point is not that people are never harmed, but that many people do recover from such experiences without the "help" of a coercive "cult expert" or any therapist. Just because someone is harmed by something does not necessarily mean they have a disorder that needs treatment. There are many ways to recover, other then psychotherapy.

I can see how it was tempting for you to try to throw my experience back in my face, Yasmin, seeing that you really have no substantive rebuttal. Much easier for you to take a cheap shot at me. Don't worry, I'm used to it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2012 03:50AM by MonicaPignotti.

In terms of research with cult members, current or past, there are many ethical issues. I will attempt to explain the strengths and weakness of the Snapping study in a subsequent post. There have been other attempts to study the effects of cult activity on individuals, but due to the limitations of IRB boards and selection problems, these results have been mixed.
Therefore, it is important to realize that no one can claim superior methods over another because there is nothing to back this up. It’s fine to say that the methods used by any in the cult recovery field are theories based on some general research in psychology, but the SIA approached generated by Steve Hassan has no research support. Thus, it is not possible to say that his approach achieves greater success rates or even helps ex cult members. There is a rich and vast trove of research from social psychology and other disciplines that informs the treatment of cult members. When I testify in court and go through the qualification process, I am able to cite and apply the latest research, on all sides of the issue.
In March of 1996, in the case of Kendall v. Kendall, the United States District Court for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts declined to quality Hassan as an expert witness. Hassan’s disclosure in this one and only attempt shows that he was charging $200 per hour for preparation and $1,500 per day for his “expert testimony” on new religions, yet he had never testified in court before and his only qualification was a a degree in counseling from Cambridge College, a school that accepts life experience as a substitute for coursework. In March of 1996, in the case of Kendall v. Kendall, the United States District Court for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts also rejected Hassan as an expert witness. Hassan’s disclosure in this case shows that he was charging $200 per hour for preparation and $1,500 per day for his “expert testimony” on new religions, yet he had never testified in court before. Nor could show that he deserved such an exorbitant fee.
The criticism of Hassan’s methodology, his marketing strategy, his unusually high fees, and the fact that he claims relationships and associations with other experts is very much overdue. I have had a personal relationship with Hassan until 2009. We discussed things freely, yet there were many issues that he failed to resolve. Hassan denies this, but he knows exactly why our relationship was terminated by me as a last resort. I have observed Hassan in interactions with fellow professionals, current and former cult members, friends, and family. I have worked on legal cases where he has previously done an intervention. Hassan relies on the fact that most people believe his marketing approach and do not know him personally.
My review of Hassan’s latest book was not undertaken lightly. I believe that his books and claims contain misleading information, do not reflect current understanding of how to work with current or former cult members, do not show an attempt to update his skills or knowledge, and he does not attempt at any level to truly work collegially with anyone. He also refuses to discuss any challenges to his work or claims, but sends others to advocate for him, usually individuals that have no personal experience with him outside of a business relationship.

Hi Dr Mann;
Thank you for posting here. I'd be interesting to read your review of the snapping study; also does anyone have a link to the original study somewhere on the web?
It seems from a quick review of Dr Pignottis link that one potential issue is the theory that amnesia is a common result of time spent in NRMs.

It would also be great if you could clarify about appropriate fee schedules.
Do you do interventions? If so how much do you charge, or what is a reasonable sliding scale for a professional to charge?
What about testifying in court? How much would you or others generally charge for this service?


You also indicated that Mr Hassan got his degree at Cambridge College.The only Cambridge College I could find on the web doesn't currently have an accredited Masters in Psych, Counseling or Social Work .
Does Mr Hassan have an accredited masters degree? On his website he states that he is a licensed mental health counselor. Do you know; is he licensed in his state to practice? Did he have to sit a board or meet other criteria to get licensure?What kind of degree does he have to have for that qualification?I am wondering if he is entitled to practice as a mental health practitioner or not?

Also, do you feel as Mr Ross does, that interventions should not be done by counselors, as a counselor would have an inherent ethical dilemma?

Sorry about all the questions here; just thought you might be a good source of accurate information on these subjects, and that your opinions would be useful..


(By the way Anti Cult, I'd also be very interested in your review of possible NLP techniques in Mr Hassans book when you get the chance. )

Dr Pignotti; I am not attempting to make cheap shots at you. Almost everyone here on this board was involved in one group or another.To be honest I have done my best to be as gentle as possible in my responses to you because I realize you have experienced some very nasty and unfair attacks on the web.
According to previous posts, you have stated my comments were manipulative( deep breath) and condescending (deeeep breath..) but when you commented to Maple in a way that made her respond "ouch" I wanted her to at least have some sense of where you might be coming from. And as you stated, 35 years since you were in the group, maybe it has no influence at all on your beliefs now.
When you comment on our personalities from the position of someone who has identified herself as having a doctorate in mental health, it does of course carry some weight,and may indeed be hard for some.
Just something it might be helpful for you to consider.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2012 07:31AM by yasmin.

Yasmin, I don't think there are any "established" fees except taking into consideration what others of equal education, credentials, and experience dictate. My point about fees is that Hassan generally charges much more than I or anyone else does, and I have a PhD in psychology, plus a license, plus extensive counseling and a long proven track record of testifying in court and assisting lawyers in forumlating their cases for hearing or trial. The point is that one cannot claim expert status unless someone does something expertly, and that does not include writing books with the ideas of others that you claim as you own.

I do not have an active website and do no advertising except for one stagnant forensic website, and I use my reputation to get referrals based on word of mouth. I am disclosed on Rick's site here as a resource. I do not maintain a commerical website like Hassan does where there is no opportunity to question his material there, and the site is used strictly to garner business for Hassan's various enterprises. Rick's site does a real service in that it contains media information and articles that have been gleaned from many areas, and there is not the self serving contention that Hassan has that is guided primarily to get him media appearances and lots of business. Even though I've been contacted lots of times, I rarely speak to the media and don't believe that someone should work on a case and then talk about it unless there is a compelling educational purpose.

Cambridge College is listed as a college granting master's degrees in counseling related areas. Please note that these degrees are M.Ed degrees, not MS or MAs. This means that they are focused on educational degrees in counseling or counseling education. If you mean "psych" counseling as psychiatric counseling or psychological counseling, this is not the degree offered. Yes, Hassan has a degree from a regionally accredited college, although it is a not a well known program.

Yes, I am aware of what Hasan advertises on his website; however, this does not necessarily mean that these are his fees in every circumstance. He currently has a license as an allied mental health professional in Mass., in this case, a licensed mental health counselor. The process one must take to obtain licensure is complicated and too detailed to go into here. However, there are various kinds of licensure, and not all are equivalent.

There is no "customary" fee for counseling or interventions or legal work, per se. I charge for legal work the same amount I have charged for over 10 years without change and that is $200 per hour, plus a much lesser fee for preparation. I charge a nominal fee for travel, etc. Many doctoral level individuals charge much more than I do. I have done my share of pro bono work or working with a sliding scale. However, the difference between a master's degree and a doctoral degree is astronomical. Again, being qualified to testify in legal cases is difficult and the preparation and testimony is grueling. I also do counseling, but for a much reduced fee. I also don't exclusively do cult-related work, I have a practice that includes general psychological or mental health cases.

Yes, from time to time, I will do an intervention if the circumstances are right and I think I can be of assistance to the family because I know something or a lot about the group in question. I have never done an involuntary intervention or deprogramming and never will. In 1999, I did an intervention with Hassan that was the result of my first time client asking me to help in the intervention because it was her daughter that was involved. It was a very troubling experience for me and I thought Hassan's behavior was so overbearing and unprofessional that I was totally sure that I could not do interventions that way. I assisted as a "content" expert on another case with Hassan becaus it was the group to which I had once been affiliated (I don't use the word "join"), and that's the end of that. For 9 years, I moderated the freedom of mind dicussion group on line which was associated with Hassan's site and had over 1,200 participants, and I terminated it in early 2009 mostly because Hassan's behavior toward the list was so destructive that I shut it down. I was not going to let him use the discussion group as a minefield for potential business, and we had ex members and professionals both posting on the listserv. There were also many other issues which I will not go into here. Please note, however, that anyone that knows me knows that I do not play nice or withhold feedback when I see something I view as wrong. It is totally false that Hassan does not know what my issues are with him, and I have told him innumerable times in person, over the phone, or via message. He knows exactly where I stand, whether he admits to it or not.

I have no real opinion as to who should do interventions, but I do know that the person doing them should not combine counseling with the intervention, especially if informed consent is not obtained in advance for counseling, and people are allowed to refuse counseling or refuse to even sit in the room and talk to me when an intervention is done. Interventions should be well planned out and should be done with the utmost respect for the family, not to make a lot of money.

These are complicated issues. My main points are that counseling and interventions should be a transparent process to the family involved, there should be no coercion, individuals licensed or not should charge fees requiste to their level of experience and education, and that people should not making huge amounts of money intervening in cases where it is possible that there is not even a cult operating.

When I testify in court, as I stated before, I do not just use research on cults only. I draw from a vast collection of social psychological research involving indoctrination methods, influence, coercive persuasion, and other related psychological processes present in cults. Again, there is not enough cult specific research out there to rely on exclusively, but there is psychological research that speaks to the general issues. As a real expert (not just a self proclaimed one), I have also educated myself on the research that cult harm may not exist, and make sure that I stay current, skeptical, and try to honor my education and experience, not use it to make myself King of the World or make a ton of money. I refuse most cases that are offered unless I can investiage objectively and make sure that I have data and opinions that are sound and acceptable to the rule of law.

Additionally, most of my legal work involves child custody, so I bring extra skills in that I evaluate the child and testify about how the cult or group affects the child.
You keep using the term NRMs, which does not apply in most cases. Many cults are not religious at all, and those that are religious are not necessarily "new". NRMs is a term used by sociologists of religion and does not include the psychological damage incurred, so it is diversionary to even use that term.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2012 01:06PM by Cathleen Mann, PhD.

Yasmin, what evidence would be required to persuade you that others offer work of a higher standard than Mr Hassan?

This is a really valuable and important thread, hopefully many people will use it as a general reference in what to look for, when coming out of some kind of cult.

Corboy; I already answered you...Go back a bit on the thread. (September 12, 11:25 am post) I did detail the type of studies that would be very useful.
Right now there isn't much evidence for any approach being best in this particular area.
Whose therapeutic approach is best, or is Dr Pignotti right and for the most part no one should get counseling? Well there is not a lot of science supporting anyones opinion right now.

Whose approach do you think is best and what do you base it on?

If you want to know what my own personal opinion on how I'd choose a therapist in this area (not at all based on science) is right now;
I'd probably be interested in fees, geographical location or accessability ,whether or not they were licensed and whether I felt I could relate easily to the person.( rapport)
I'd also probably do a quick google search on them to see to see if I could get a sense of their writings and attitudes, and see if whatever criticisms came up during the search were things I was reasonably comfortable living with .
It would be good if they had some experience with the dynamics of high demand religious (or other) groups.
A history of major boundary violations, particularly sexual would be a definite no. My own preference is therapists who are comfortable with shades of grey, rather than those who see the world in terms of black and white, so I would look for that too.
I'd also look for a therapist who had been around a bit, with a fair amount of life and counseling experience.Particularly given my background being raised in a group, its good to have a therapist who isn't easily shocked.( Its not great if in a session, you realize you have to protect the person you are talking to because there are events from your past that they can't handle.)
My personal preference is for therapy with a comfortable end point, rather than therapy that continues indefinitely, so I'd also be asking about how long people normally stay in therapy with that person.
I suppose if people are interested in interventions,they would be looking for a different skill set again.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2012 02:09AM by yasmin.