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Musician's Mother was a Trungpa Disciple
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 14, 2017 09:38PM

[www.theguardian.com]

Quote

"My mother has travelled a lot, following various gurus around ...he liked to encourage drunk driving, which didn’t turn out well for him. He thought drunk driving was very good for you, to sharpen the awareness."

Being a guru means at least several things:

* Adoring disciples who will clean up your vomit and remove your shit
stained garments before putting you to bed - and putting you to bed
in such a way that you're less likely to aspirate your vomit while asleep.

* Never having to say you are sorry

* A wider range of rationalizations available to you than to the ordinary
drunkard.

* Ability to attract people from dysfunctional homes who will enable you
and make excuses for you the way they as children made excuses for their
drunken parents.

* You will be protected even after your death by those same disciples after the
latter have become teachers, authors and psychotherapists.

* After your death your actual behavior and the persons harmed will become the 'family secret' of your sangha. This will re-enact the family backgrounds so many of spiritual seekers come from.

This generates yet more ancient twisted karma.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2017 10:18PM by corboy.

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Re: Musician's Mother was a Trungpa Disciple
Posted by: Misstyk ()
Date: March 17, 2017 11:26AM

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.theguardian.com]
> ure-felt-like-a-cult-stephin-merritt-life-in-songs
> -magnetic-fields-new-album
>
>
Quote

"My mother has travelled a lot, following
> various gurus around ...he liked to encourage
> drunk driving, which didn’t turn out well for
> him. He thought drunk driving was very good for
> you, to sharpen the awareness."
>
> Being a guru means at least several things:
>
> * Never having to say you are sorry
>
> * A wider range of rationalizations available to
> you than to the ordinary
> drug abuser
>
> * Ability to attract people from dysfunctional
> homes who will enable you
> and make excuses for you the way they as
> children made excuses for their
> own disabled parents.
>
> * You will be protected even after your death by
> those same disciples after the
> latter have become teachers, therapists and
> authors.
>
> * After your death your actual behavior and the
> persons harmed will become the 'family secret' of
> your sangha. This will re-enact the family
> backgrounds so many of spiritual seekers come
> from.
>
> This generates yet more ancient twisted karma.

The observation that dysfunctional and/or unethical gurus tend to attract followers from dysfunctional homes, and that the sangha environment and the guru's behavior re-enact the family backgrounds of the followers, in effect re-abusing them over and over, is demonstrated in the bio by John Steinbeck IV and his wife, Nancy, who were Trungpa followers: "The Other Side of Eden".

Steinbeck IV came from a multi-generational family of alcoholics, so in the Trungpa sangha, he found familiar ground that he felt at home in. He and his wife did eventually see through all the hype, pretense and abuse-as-enlightened-practice, and left. They provide some valuable insights into the group dynamics of the Trungpa entourage from an insider perspective.

Amazon link here:
[www.amazon.com]

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 17, 2017 10:35PM

The Steinbeck memoir sounds fascinating.

Here is two readers'comment on Amazon:

[www.amazon.com]

Quote

Some of the observations and critiques offered were very bold, fearlessly honest, and insightful. One such was the critique of Al-Anon workers being unnecessarily condescending and haughty toward Nancy at some point. She insisted on being real, and relentlessly refused to treat her husband as a disposable person, and yet she also learned to take care of herself and not sacrifice herself to the whims of alcoholic/addicts.

She describes how she learned to develop and enforce boundaries to protect herself and her children against her husband's continued misbehavior, but also let him back in after compelling him to realize she was not going to enable his misbehavior anymore. These processes and her rationale is explained clearly.

One such incident is when she goes to pick him up from a rehab center in Sebastopol, and scolds him for trying to manipulate her. They also detail how they both eventually deplore the excesses of the Tibetan lama & guru, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and Nancy explains how a support and survivors group forms in Boulder, Colorado, which continues to offer support and perspective, and the excesses are compared to the Catholic priesthood scandals, which seems an apt parallel.

Quote

This is one gem of a story, in fact, several stories. In flipbook-style, this book by John Steinbeck 1V, the famous author's son, and his wife, Nancy, deftly walks the line between memoir and expose.

From growing up in an alcoholic home to growing up as adults inside a cult guru's enlightenment racket, the authors' dual recollections provide a number of deflating revelations, about the famous Steinbeck as well as the famous guru.

I found especially interesting the dynamics between the Tibetan lama, Trungpa Rinpoche, and his American students, all brimming with devotion and lacking in personal authority, and the parallel with dysfunctional family systems.

Trungpa Rinpoche appears as a drunken, crazy surrogate for the dysfunctional families of the authors. The ploys used to keep the power differential operating in the community of Rinpoche's followers mimic the betrayal and required secrets in the alcoholic family.

At the time of the Steinbecks' involvement, the American zeitgeist was ripe with Eastern gurus telling psychologically vulnerable hippies, then yuppies what to do and how to live their lives. To the authors' credit, they eventually wake up to the pretense of waking up and embark on their own journey of deconditioning from familial ghosts and spiritual authoritarianism, but not before they hit bottom multiple times, wounded by alcoholism, codependence, and post-traumatic stress, and suffering the ostracism of their guru-adulating peers.

The stories of emotional, physical, and spiritual recovery are compelling enough to maintain the reader's interest and stimulate consciousness. Well worth the read!

Corboy's comment is there is no such thing as an Alanon 'worker'; 12 Step groups
are non professional.

People are advised to attend a variety of Alanon meetings to see which one seems
best. However, this is a big problem if there is only one Alanon group in your area. And by nature, those of us who qualify for Alanon are usually unable to
enforce boundaries when a fellow member oversteps boundaries.

Deciding to stay or leave a marriage is an individual decision and must be respected as such.

An Alanon guideline is that participants offer each other support, NOT advice.

Unfortunately some group members do overstep this. In an Alanon meeting, I was targeted by a Byron Katie disciple who hit on me when I was shaky
and urged me to get involved with Byron Katie's material. This is a violation
of Alanon guidelines. I knew all about Katie being a cult mistress. Sad to say I
did not have the guts to tell this member she had overstepped Alanon.

To sum up, a drunkard is a drunkard, whether he's in the gutter, or dressed
in gold brocade with an entourage on hand to wipe his ass -- or change his
Depend diapers.

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 10, 2017 12:01AM

Chogyam Trungpa fooled a lot of us that he was enlightened.

His liver had the last word - it could not detoxify the poisons.

(Grim) Trungpa killed his liver in 1987.

If this were playing out today, Trungpa, with his high placed
connections and money would probably have jumped to the head
of the liver transplant wait lists.

Ethics committees rule on such matters and ordinary alcoholics are usually denied
transplants or placed near the bottom of wait lists.

[www.google.com]

Encountering the Shadow in Buddhist America
Common Boundary Magazine
1990 May/June
By Katy Butler

[www.katybutler.com]


(Small exerpt)

Quote

Some students, replaying dynamics from their alcoholic families, responded to Trungpa Rinpoche by denying and enabling his addictive drinking and sexual activity. “I served Rinpoche big glasses of gin first thing in the morning, if you want to talk about enabling,” said one woman, who had watched her own father die of alcoholism.

Others resolved their cognitive dissonance by believing that their teacher had transcended the limitations of a human body. “Trungpa Rinpoche said that because he had Vajra nature [a yogically transformed and stabilized psychophysiology], he was immune to the normal physiological effects of alcohol,” said one student. “We bought the story that it was a way of putting ‘earth’ into his system, so that he could ... relate to us. It never occurred to anyone I knew that he was possibly an alcoholic, since that was a disease that could only happen to an ordinary mortal. And many of us were ignorant–we thought of an alcoholic only as the classic bum in the street “

An atmosphere of denial permeated the community in the 1970s and early 1980s, and other Vajradhatu students became heavy drinkers. “I found myself a nice little nest where I could keep on drinking,” said one long-time Vajradhatu Buddhist. who was among a handful of Vajradhatu members who joined Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in the early 1980s. Their recovery seemed to threaten others. The first woman to get sober was asked to quit the hoard of a home care organization found by Vajradhatu members. “I felt such contempt for someone who had to quit drinking, and I treated her like a mental case.” said the woman who got rid of her–a woman who has since joined AA herself.

When Trungpa Rinpoche lay dying in 1986 at the age of 47, only an inner circle knew the symptoms of his final illness. Few could bear to acknowledge that their beloved and brilliant teacher was dying of terminal alcoholism. even when he lay incontinent in his bedroom, belly distended and skin discolored, hallucinating and suffering from varicose veins, gastritis and esophageal varices, a swelling of veins in the esophagus caused almost exclusively by cirrhosis of the liver.

“Rinpoche was certainly not an ordinary Joe, but he sure died like every alcoholic I’ve ever seen who drank uninterruptedly.” said Victoria Fitch, a member of his household staff with years of experience as a nursing attendant. “The denial was bone-deep.” she continued. “I watched his alcoholic dementia explained as his being in the realm of the daikinis (guardians of the teachings, visualized in female form). When he requested alcohol, no one could bring themselves not to bring it to him, although they tried to water his beer or bring him a little less. In that final time of his life... he could no longer walk independently. At the same time then was a power about hint and an equanimity to his presence that was phenomenal, that I don’t know how to explain.”

Some students now feel that the Regent Osel Tendzin suffered from a similar denial of human limitation, as well as ignorance of addictive behavior.

“Many students who are outraged by the Regent’s behavior seem to think he arose out of nowhere,” one student said. “They’re not using their Buddhist training about cause and effect. I think the Regent has emulated in a more extreme and deadly fashion a pattern of denial and ignorance exemplified by Trungpa Rinpoche’s own attitude to alcohol.”

Family Secrets

By the time the crisis broke, a small but significant minority of Vajrtdhatu students had begun to deal with wounds fell by family alcoholism and incest. By the mid-1980s, about 250 Vajradhatu members around the country–mostly wives of alcoholic husbands –had joined Al-Anon, an organization modeled after AA for the Families of alcoholics, and more than a score of sangha members had joined AA. Soft drinks were also served at Vajradhatu ceremonies, and the atmosphere of excessive drinking diminished.

Those in the 12-Step movement were a minority, however, and certain stubbornness persisted. For example, the Regent himself sought to suppress any public discussion of the sexual scandal and crisis, creating an atmosphere reminiscent of an alcoholic family’s defensive secrecy.

When editor Rick Fields prepared a short article for the Vajradhatu Sun describing the bare bones of the crisis, he was forbidden to print it. “There have been ongoing discussions, both within community meetings and among many individuals, about the underlying issues that permitted the current situation to occur,” read the banned article. "Those issues include the abuse of power and the betrayal of trust, the proper relationship between teachers with spiritual authority and students, particularly in the West, and the relationship between devotion and critical intelligence on the spiritual path.”

In the article’s place, Fields printed a mute drawing of the Vajradhatu logo–a knot of eternity–stretched to the break­ing point over a broken heart. In March, Fields again attempted to run his article and was fired by the Regent. When the board of directors refused to support him, he formally resigned, saying that Buddhist teaching in the West “would best served in the long run by openness and honesty, painful as that may be.”

The suppression of public discussion echoed both the Asian tradition of face-saving as well as the dynamics of alcoholic families. “There’s a sense of family secrets, things you don’t talk about, especially with outsiders,” said Levinson. “Shortly after the news came out I wrote to the Regent and said, 'If the rumors are true, then [those actions] don’t seem to be in accord with the dharma, but it doesn’t make you a devil. The most important thing is what we do now. I would really like you to come talk to us openly, in small groups, at least in Boulder and Halifax, as your health permits. If you can do that we ... may be able to re-establish some trust.' My biggest heartbreak is that he hasn’t done that."

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: Misstyk ()
Date: April 10, 2017 09:34AM

Everything that was going on in that sangha, as described in those excerpts, was the antithesis of Buddhism.

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: Misstyk ()
Date: April 21, 2017 10:58AM

Often when the topic of scandal in TB arises, a debate ensues as to whether TB is, by its very nature, corrupt. I was pleasantly surprised when, on another forum, someone quoted Dudjom Rinpoche, (now deceased) former head of the Nyingma Order of TB, as saying, "Ethics is the highest Dharma".

It's news to me that the concept of "ethics" even existed in Tibetan Buddhism. Historians of Buddhism have noted that Tantric Buddhism arose during a time when Buddhism was in decline in India, so Buddhism in India incorporated a number of Hindu practices, such as tantrism, putting the guru on a pedestal and creating a cult about the guru, and so on, in a desperate attempt to attract followers to the waning ranks of the Buddhist communities. This syncretism had the opposite effect; followers and potential followers knew the Buddha would never have approved such things, so it hastened Buddhism's demise. (Davidson) Tibetan Buddhism is precisely this Hindu-ized Dharma that survived in the Swat Valley, and was propagated in Tibet by the tantric sorcerer, Padma Sambhava, who was later expelled from Tibet for practicing sorcery. (Snellgrove) So it shouldn't surprise us that a corrupt form of Buddhism should bring us corrupt monks and lamas.

On this (CEI) forum, I've found a very eye-opening testimony from a Tibetan in India, regarding corrupt practices in their own community. I include it here, to show that Chogyam Trungpa really wasn't an aberration. It turns out, he was pretty typical, sadly.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Dear friends,

I am Tibetan and so sorry to hear that Tibetan lama has abuse these young innocent students. Some time i am surprise how can they let it happen. I always think westerner are smart enough to protect themselves as they do from any sex scandals of these kinds. But in reality this lama are nothing special and they have same sinful nature and lust and sexual desire as you and me.

Before you decide to get any spiritual teaching you better check their history and their background.

Because in Tibetan world its very common for Tibetan lama to abuse young Tibetan girls. Those woman and their family would never dare to open their mouth against these powerful lama. In My Tibetan settlement this big Rinpoche (high lama) use to teach Tibetan language to several student. There were five to six young woman. And he abused all these girls and some them become pregnant, and these days one of son and now also incarnate lama in one of monastery in Nepal. Tibetan Public in that area still thinks this blessing rather than speak against it. So its very common practice in villages in Tibet.

Its been more than 50 years since china took Tibet but still Tibetan lamas have not changed. It’s sad and I am part of this medieval-period mind set and practices. But in reality all these Tibetan Religious leader use fraud and Buddhism to make money and live in Luxurious life, which completely different from what Buddha was teaching…. Be careful with smiling fake humble looking Lamas….


Stephen August 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink | Reply


Thank you for this Sonam. I lived in Tibetan refugee camps in South India for a year and am acquainted with the ‘medieval mindset’ you describe here. Most Westerners hold Tibetan lamas in high esteem and will be shocked, thinking that this couldn’t possibly be a systemic problem, but they’re under an illusion; they’re far more vulnerable than you imagine. I was shocked when I first encountered it, and deeply hurt.

The Buddha teaches that we should face reality and not avoid it. I applaud you for speaking out.

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 21, 2017 09:43PM

The item quoted by Misstyk is a comment following a blog article titled "Inconvenience of Doubt."

[www.thenakedmonk.com]

The Tibetan advised us to be careful to check the background of any Tibetan
teacher, they are human beings and as subject to temptation as the rest of us.

Here is the problem:

It is difficult for newcomers and beginning students to obtain "warts and all"
information about Vajrayana teachers by asking questions face to face.

1) Disciples of the teacher may be so indoctrinated that the cannot imagine
that the teacher is capable of harming anyone and deny that he or she actually
is harming people.

2) Older disciples hide 'inconvenient truths' about a dishonest or greedy
teacher because they do not want new students and prospective recruits to
be put off from the Dharma. Attracting new people to Vajrayana brings merit
to these older students, so there is an incentive to conceal discouraging
information. These disciples really believe that they themselves accumulate
merit and stand to progress more quickly in their own practice (in this life
and in future lives) by helping new people get involved with the Vajrayana via
their lama and other lamas.

Because all this is for the future good of the convert, older students feel
justified in hiding information about abusive lamas and rinpoches.

This is justified as 'skillful means'.

To others who are unenlightened, all this stinks of family secret dynamic -
the behavior perpetrated in alcoholic or otherwise secret ridden families.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 09:52PM by corboy.

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: Misstyk ()
Date: April 22, 2017 08:05AM

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> 2) Older disciples hide 'inconvenient truths'
> about a dishonest or greedy
> teacher because they do not want new students and
> prospective recruits to
> be put off from the Dharma. Attracting new people
> to Vajrayana brings merit
> to these older students, so there is an incentive
> to conceal discouraging
> information. These disciples really believe that
> they themselves accumulate
> merit and stand to progress more quickly in their
> own practice (in this life
> and in future lives) by helping new people get
> involved with the Vajrayana via
> their lama and other lamas.
>

Attracting new students to the Dharma may bring merit, but for the teacher, behaving in such a way that students get turned off from the Dharma is considered a "root downfall" that shoots his merit collection down in flames. Making a mockery of the Dharma by using the sangha as a sexual playground does not serve the Dharma, it should be obvious.

Also, luring new students into a risky situation is not meritorious at all. If the student should fall prey to an unethical teacher, then those who invited the new student into that circle while cognizant of the risks involved would sacrifice some of their good merit. It's clear in such a scenario that the seasoned disciples' actions are ego-driven, rather than being driven by compassion, which means they accrue no merit for those actions. Their motive is wrong, therefore no merit is earned.

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: ollaimh ()
Date: April 28, 2017 10:56PM

i gave the quote that "ethics are the highest dharma", but this was from dudjom rinpoche and he spent quite some time at a university in washington state and worked with phd translators, hence he may have been introduced to the idea in north america.

the madamaika tradition does have philosphical discussion that is about ethics but it doesn't get much attention from tibetan buddhists. moreover if you ask questions , it has been my experience you get slapped down with rude and insulting attacks. of course this is because those questioned do not want to lie, but do not want to acknowledge truth about the flaws of lamas. this is totally defying the often taught theory that a student must examine the teacher carefully. how can one examine the teacher when the senior instructors under that teacher will only hurl insults when queried? it's not possible.

it's my firm believe that the groups created by chogyam trungpa are a corrupt form of buddhism and although the fortunate may get benefit from these groups, most will not, and furthermore many of their projects cause harm to some communities.

the mindfullness group goes into the community teaching secular meditation and then after a few months their teachers begin to teach the great trungpa. this bait and switch tactic is unethical. i am not sure why they are doing this except for self serving reasons of gaining support.

there is a web site : extibetanbuddhist.com, does anyone know the people running this? i am curious to talk to them . they seem to have inside information , particularily about law suits against the trungpa people whic i believe should be public.

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Re: Chogyam Trungpa--departed from Ri-Med Tradition
Posted by: Misstyk ()
Date: April 30, 2017 01:43AM

ollaimh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i gave the quote that "ethics are the highest
> dharma", but this was from dudjom rinpoche and he
> spent quite some time at a university in
> washington state and worked with phd translators,
> hence he may have been introduced to the idea in
> north america.
>
> the madamaika tradition does have philosphical
> discussion that is about ethics but it doesn't get
> much attention from tibetan buddhists. moreover
> if you ask questions , it has been my experience
> you get slapped down with rude and insulting
> attacks. of course this is because those
> questioned do not want to lie, but do not want to
> acknowledge truth about the flaws of lamas. this
> is totally defying the often taught theory that a
> student must examine the teacher carefully. how
> can one examine the teacher when the senior
> instructors under that teacher will only hurl
> insults when queried? it's not possible.
>

This may be a slight digression, but where in WA State, and when, did Dudjom Rinpoche work with translators at a University? The U of Washington, Seattle, had the first Tibetan Studies program in the US, so my guess is that it was there. The founder of the program would snag any highly-respected Tibetan figures, who found their way to the US, to teach there: the DL's oldest brother, the Geshe Dhargye, former head of the Tibetan Archive in Dharamsala, etc. But I never heard that Dudjom Rinpoche might have been there.

These exhortations to research the teacher come from a Tibetan cultural context, in which community gossip can be easily accessed. It doesn't work for Westerners living on a different continent, who can't easily drop into the teahouses of Dharamsala, and start asking questions. Westerners are at a distinct, and extreme, disadvantage in this regard, though the internet finally is beginning to fill the void, but not enough. Too few people are willing to post publicly about unscrupulous teachers.

This forum here has the potential to be a tremendous resource in that regard. So far, though, only the most spectacularly egregious of TB teachers/"gurus" have received attention here. There's a vast number of lesser-knowns who remain under the radar, but by posting threads warning generally about the hidden nature of TB and "esoteric Buddhism" (tantric Buddhism), we can at least provide some approach-at-your-own risk warnings to people, and educate them about issues of corruption.

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