Hey trackandfield,

Thanks mate, yeah I know the feeling, my nature is similar to yours and it takes a lot of effort not to get emotional and descend into all out verbal war, but I've found if anything they just react by saying you're negative and use it against you to prove their point... which although they are insane turns out pretty counterproductive and puts you on the backfoot the next time you have a chat.

I know the feeling that if you don't get them out now then they'll continue to slip away. It's what motivated me to try and go all out. But then I started to see it as a bit of a see-saw. At the moment on the one side you've got Serge and his cronies, and the percentages of your loved ones that they've given over; on the other you've got you, everyone on this forum and our comments, your support network, hopefully some other family and friends and the percentages of your loved ones that are still living in the real world. Bit by bit with each good, meaningful, calm chat, you only need to get through a bit and the momentum against Serge should hopefully start to grow.

I guess it also depends on the individual and where they are at obviously there are some strong-minded and weak-minded people in general terms, but if you get blind-sided but something like this at a time when you're more malleable, like after a tragedy, your sick and desperate for an answer any answer that the doc's can't give, even strong-minded I guess can be sucked in.

In terms of how I'm going with my brother, I'm going quite well with him, started out very full on with the questioning and books and the evidence and the forum posts just basically ramming it down his throat, didn't get the reaction I was after. He started trying to respond with a bunch of Serge babble which only made me worse. Then we didn't talk for a couple of weeks, and I was freaking out sure he was going to 'drink the kook-aid' at any moment.

Then one day out of the blue he picked up the phone and said look I understand your concerns, I want to keep looking into this thing but I'm happy to talk sensibly with you about it.

So now that's what we do, he still is involved and I can't comment on whether he is more involved or less only that the channel of communication is open and bit by bit it feels like we're getting him back. He's eating more of his normal diet, exercising properly, and is a lot more involved in the family, on the other hand I can't say the negative influences aren't still there, he stills follows the sleep patterns, and he still speaks highly of Serge and his ideas.

But in my own case, I feel like it is more important to build a really supportive, trusting relationship with him as the first priority, freeing him from Serge's influence being the second priority, and I just hope and pray that our brotherly bond, as well as logic and intelligent dialogue will be stronger in the end.

And when I'm not doing that I am investing a lot of time behind the scenes putting pressure on Serge at every level that I can think of in the hope that we can build up a tidal wave of unrest against him and that he will be forced to make a really big mistake, come clean, change his ways, give up, or be publicly scrutinised by the press, or legislated against.

But at the end of it all there is nothing particularly special about Serge and if my brother is malleable to the works of someone like Serge, then Serge is the smaller problem the bigger problem is filling the need that exists within my brother and your family members with something more reliable, trustworthy, down to earth and GOOD.

Whatever approach you go with champ, it would be awesome if you can me (us) in the loop so that we can each benefit from each others success and failures.

And finally just want to say thanks to everyone posting up in here with your intelligent thoughts, findings, interpretations and experiences as it has really help to give me a bigger picture of what is really at play here.

What this hinges on for me is information, we need to know more about this subject than anyone else - especially Serge - this is what our family and friends are after, they have chosen to accept Serge's incorrect, misleading, misinterpreted non-answers, then it is up to us to give them the awkward truth.

K_I_K, if you can, please re-post this in the main Universal Medicine thread. It's a solid contribution and will keep the UM focus in one concentrated area rather than have it scattered unnecessarily.

All the best.

Hey mate I have no idea how this got split off I was meaning to post up in the main thread. Is it possible to get moderator assistance to close this thread and put this post back in the main UM thread please?

Maybe the moderators here could help out and do that if possible?