Here is the full text of the article to which the correspondant 'Integral Hack referred. When another correspondant quoted a section that implied that non buddhists are inferior to Buddhists, Integral Hack replied

Oh please: the example given is a particular non-Buddhist who makes animal sacrifices. Yes, there will be some non-Buddhists who have stupid notions (like slaughtering animals unnecessarily), that doesn't mean, however, that all non-Buddhists are inferior.

That said, this Rinpoche's views on certain things like rebirth, samsara-builder networks, etc. are not reflective of mine. I was focusing on the Prasangika viewpoint brought up in the article.

Apart from the unmannerly petulance with which IH responds to correctly quoted text and a quite reasonable conclusion that could be drawn from that text--tied to the URL IH had referred to--I do not recall any part of this text stating that the subject discussed is a non Buddhist doing animal sacrifices.

THe article has a number of live URLS leading off to other essays in the Berzin archives. Perhaps it was one of those that IH referred to.

If so, IH should have stated *that* URL instead.

The Prasangika View among Non-Buddhists
Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche II
Translated, compiled, and edited by Alexander Berzin
Bodh Gaya, India, December 2009
Even a non-Buddhist can understand the Prasangika view of the absence of self-established existence (rang-bzhin-gyis grub-pa med-pa) both correctly and with certitude. In other words, even non-Buddhists can have valid apprehension (rtogs-pa) of voidness (emptiness).

•Apprehension is a way of knowing that cognitively takes its object correctly and with certitude that it is “this” and not “that.”
[See: Apprehension of Validly Knowable Phenomena.]

This apprehension by non-Buddhists may even be a total absorption (mnyam-bzhag) on voidness. If an apprehension is a total absorption, it is pervasive that it is with a stilled and settled mind of shamatha (zhi-gnas). The non-Buddhists’ apprehension of voidness cannot, however, also be with an exceptionally perceptive mind of vipashyana (lhag-mthong).

[See: General Presentation of Shamatha and Vipashyana.]

The total absorption of a non-Buddhist on voidness cannot be with vipashyana because the development of a joined pair of shamatha and vipashyana (zhi-lhag zung-‘brel) focused on voidness requires the inspiration (byin-rlabs, “blessings”) gained from firm conviction (mos-pa) in the good qualities of one’s spiritual teacher and of the exceptional deity (lhag-pa’i lha) Buddha-figures associated with developing discriminating awareness (shes-rab) of voidness, such as Manjushri. Such firm conviction entails three types of belief (dad-pa) that their possessing these good qualities is a fact:

•believing a fact about an object to be true, based on reason (yid-ches-kyi dad-pa),
•clearheadedly believing a fact about an object to be true (dang-ba’i dad-pa), which, like a water purifier, clears the mind of disturbing emotions and attitudes about the object,
•believing a fact about an object to be true with an aspiration concerning it (mngon-‘dod-kyi dad-pa), with which one not only believes the good qualities of the spiritual teacher and exceptional deities to be true, but one also has confident belief that oneself can attain true stoppings (‘gog-bden) of true sufferings and their true causes based on nonconceptual cognition of the voidness that they teach.
Although non-Buddhists must listen to (thos-pa) or read about the correct Prasangika view of voidness as taught by a Buddhist master, then contemplate (bsam-pa) or think about it, and finally meditate (sgom-pa) upon it in order to gain a state of shamatha that apprehends voidness, they lack firm conviction in the Buddhist spiritual teachers and exceptional deities who taught this view. Consequently, although non-Buddhists may attain a joined pair of shamatha and vipashyana with apprehension of objects other than voidness, they lack the inspiration of the Buddhist spiritual teachers and exceptional deities needed in order to gain a joined pair of shamatha and vipashyana with apprehension of voidness.

For the same reasons, non-Buddhists’ apprehension of voidness can only be conceptual. They are unable to have nonconceptual apprehension of voidness.

Further, their conceptual total absorption having apprehension of voidness can only function optimally as an opponent (gnyen-po) for their unawareness of the very nature of reality (de-kho-na-nyid ma-rig-pa). It cannot function as an obliterating opponent (gnod-pa’i gnyen-po) for this type of unawareness of theirs.

•In the context of meditation, an opponent on a meditator’s mental continuum is a state of mind that has the ability (nus-pa) merely to weaken and temporarily suppress something to be gotten rid of (spang-bya) on that person’s mental continuum. For example, meditation on the ugliness and dirtiness of the body acts as an opponent for merely weakening and temporarily suppressing that person’s attachment to the body.
•An obliterating opponent (literally, an opponent that harms) something to be gotten rid of on a meditator’s mental continuum is a state of mind that has the ability to actually rid that person’s mental continuum of a portion of something to be gotten rid of.
For example, the deep awareness (ye-shes) of nonconceptual total absorption on voidness on an arya’s uninterrupted pathway mind (bar-chad-med lam) acts as an obliterating opponent that rids that person’s mental continuum of a portion of its unawareness of the very nature of reality.

•An obliterating opponent must be the opposite of that which it destroys and gets rid of, and such opponents that actually do obliterate something to be gotten rid of on a mental continuum and thus bring about true stoppings (‘gog-bden) occur only on the mental continuum of an arya.

[See: The Five Pathway Minds (Five Paths) - Basic Presentation.]

Thus, a non-Buddhist’s total absorption having apprehension of voidness can function as an opponent that weakens and temporarily suppresses that person’s unawareness of the very nature of reality, but it cannot serve as an opponent that obliterates that unawareness on this person’s mental continuum. This is because that apprehension not only lacks an exceptionally perceptive state of mind of vipashyana, but also because it is still conceptual.

By way of contrast, a non-Buddhist’s total absorption with apprehension of voidness does not necessarily even function as an opponent to weaken and temporarily suppress that person’s unawareness of cause and effect (las-‘bras ma-rig-pa), let alone serve as an opponent that obliterates that unawareness. This is because a non-Buddhist with such total absorption could still believe that making an animal sacrifice will result in a rebirth in a heaven. So, non-Buddhists with total absorption having apprehension of voidness could still be reborn in a worse state of rebirth.

Through their total absorption having apprehension of voidness, however, non-Buddhists may build up a samsara-builder network of deep awareness (ye-shes-kyi tshogs, collection of wisdom), but not necessarily even a samsara-builder network of positive force (bsod-nams-kyi tshogs, collection of merit). Non-Buddhists, of course, do not build up either of the liberation-builder or enlightenment-builder forms of the two networks, because they lack renunciation and a bodhichitta aim.

[See: The Two Enlightenment-Building Networks (The Two Collections).]

Non-Buddhists can even apprehend voidness to mean dependent arising (rten-cing ‘brel-ba) in terms of mere mental labeling (rtog-pa btags-tsam). However, by building up only a samsara-builder network of deep awareness, there is the danger that these non-Buddhists may apprehend only voidness and not apprehend it as meaning dependent arising. This may result in the fear that the superficial truth (kun-rdzob bden-pa) of things does not exist, in other words fear that there is no conventional existence (tha-snyad-du yod-pa) of anything, Thus, they may fall to the extreme of nihilism (med-mtha’).

[See: Introduction to Voidness and Mental Labeling.]

In general, building up a network of positive force serves to affirm the conventional existence of validly knowable phenomena. Therefore, although non-Buddhists could have a Prasangika view (lta-ba), that does not make them a Prasangika person (gang-zag). To be a Prasangika person requires both a Prasangika view and Prasangika behavior (spyod-pa), namely a correct view of voidness plus both a bodhichitta aim and bodhisattva behavior based on a correct understanding of cause and effect.

However, by the force of inspiration merely from a correct view of voidness, a non-Buddhist with such a view may eventually understand correctly what true stoppings, true pathway minds, liberation and enlightenment mean. Thus, eventually, such a non-Buddhist may take safe direction (refuge) in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, and thus become a Buddhist aiming for liberation or enlightenment.

(Note by Corboy: its no joke to camp in a cave if one doesnt know what one is doing. It is going to be complex for the medical examiner. First, unclean water can make people ill. GI from unclean food or water illness can dehydrate an adult enough to require emergency medical attention.

It is possible to contract diseases from wild animals living in desert caves - hantavirus from mouse droppings, leptopspirosis and tularemia from rodent leavings, fungal infections from cave dust, to name but a few.



We hear about the various famous Tibetan and Indian sages who spent time in caves adn became famous.

We do not hear of the very many thousands of others who died in those caves or who became so ill that they had to leave and return to more communal settings. Saint John Chrysostom (4th to 5th century CE) as a devout young man sought to be a cave dwelling monk in the mountains near his home town, but his health broke down after some time adn he had to return to town. He may have been fortunate to recognize his condition and be able to walk.

be[blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com]

Phoenix New Times Blogs

Christie McNally and Michael Roach, Famed Buddhist Teachers, in Tale of Death in Arizona Desert; Ian Thorson, McNally's Husband, Found Dead in Cave

Christie McNally and Michael Roach, Famed Buddhist Teachers, in Tale of Death in Arizona Desert; Ian Thorson, McNally's Husband, Found Dead in CaveBy Ray Stern Tue., May 15 2012 at 5:37 PM Comments (9) Categories: News


image
Christie McNally, noted Buddhist teacher, and Ian Thorson pose for a book-promo shot. Thorson died after the couple spent two months in a desert cave in southeastern Arizona following their eviction from a Buddhist retreat.


Famed teachers of Buddhism and yoga Christie McNally and Michael Roach are at the heart of a strange tale of the death of McNally's husband, Ian Thorson, last month in a desert cave.

Roach and McNally, who were said in a 2008 New York Times story to have a "growing following," co-wrote several books and also opened the Diamond Mountain University in a rural area near Bowie, Arizona. The place is Buddhist retreat where people embark on three-year silent retreats to find their inner selves.

After a scandalous relationship between Roach and McNally ended, McNally paired up with one of the Buddhist students, Ian Thorson of New York City. The two also wrote a book on yoga together, which Roach endorsed.

In February, the two were banished from the facility because of concerns about suspected domestic violence. They hiked to a shallow cave on federal land several miles southwest of Diamond Mountain's 960-acre property, taking jugs of water, a plastic tub full of food, and a cell phone.

On the morning of April 22, Diamond Mountain staff called authorities to report that the couple were in distress. A short while later, McNally called 911, saying Thorson was struggling to breathe.

After apparently spending more than two months in the cave with McNally, Thorson died before a rescue helicopter arrived.

Image: Facebook
Christie McNally


Rescuers found five one-gallon jugs -- empty, though one had some water with leaves and branches in it. "It did not appear to be clean for drinking water," says Carol Capas, spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Office.

No cooking materials were found, Capas says, even though much of the food included dried beans and rice.

The couple kept the food container at the bottom of a 60-foot embankment, to which they had to scramble and slide down. McNally told rescuers that she and Thorson became so weak that they made a "conscious decision," at some point, to stop trying to get food because they were worried they might not be able to climb back up the embankment, Capas says.

(Corboy - 60 feet may not seem much, but if you are out in dirt, gravel and tired, keeping balance going downhill, then carrying supplies up that same hill can become dreafully exhausting)

McNally was found in a weakened state and flown out with Thorson's body.



Capas says deputies had gone out to the Diamond Mountain University two months earlier following a February 13 call from the retreat's property manager, Robert Ruisinger.



Image: Cochise County Sheriff's Office
A rescue helicopter arrived too late to save Thorson.


Ruisinger told the Sheriff's Office he wanted to report a possible domestic violence incident that had happened about a year ago, though no victim would be coming forward. He'd learned of a speech that McNally had given at the retreat on February 4 in which she'd "made comments about possibly cutting her partner, Ian Thorson, with a large knife."

Capas says the deputies didn't interview McNally, but did talk to a woman "who had sutured Ian's wound." She explained she'd been told the couple had been "goofing off."

Three days before their rescue, a 31-page screed written by McNally was uploaded to the Internet. In it, she complained about being booted from a retreat home she founded nine years ago. She downplayed the "knife incident" as a mishap during martial arts training with a "rather large samurai sword."

But she also described "physical aggression" and "outbursts" by Thorson:

We agreed on various remedial actions, and had a lot of debates! But I could not reject him. I took a vow to join with him "in sickness and in health." So if he had a problem, we both did. I am on this path, and needed to know what desperate fears and desires were in his heart,driving him

Continued from page 1




Michael Roach


Retreat officials, acting on a vote from the retreat's board of directors, came to the cabin of Thorson and McNally and gave them five days to leave, McNally wrote. At the time, she was the leader of the retreat, which started in 2010 and was to last three years, three months and three days.

She wrote:

We had a run-down broken tent, a coleman stove, a sleeping bag that fit two-what more did we need? So we went out to the forest and made our camp. And the very first night, we saw these flashlights wandering through the dark. And I said to Ian, "I think that's people looking for us!" And he said, "Why?"
She described avoiding the people who appeared on another night, who she assumed were from Diamond Mountain.

Roach wrote a long statement about the incident and posted it on the Diamond Mountain Web site, saying he'd been in Argentina during McNally's rescue.

Roach said that Diamond Mountain's board of directors had received information not only about the knife wounds, which he described as "three separate wounds to the torso, one of which was deep enough to threaten vital organs," but had also received word of "assault of students and staff by Ian."

In a "heart-rending" vote, the board decided to evict the couple from the property for one year, Roach wrote. After they left, their cabin was locked to keep out "illegal immigrants," who had broken in previously.

Roach denied that anyone from Diamond Mountain had been out to look for the couple, but he acknowledged that some people at the retreat knew where they were:

On February 22, we were informed by email from their assistant that they had left the land at 5 am on Monday, February 20, and that he had driven to a public road to pick them up...

We were subsequently presented with hotel receipts and asked to pay for them. The location of the hotels on the receipts were blacked out. Because of this, we could not reimburse these receipts, but receiving them led us to believe that the couple had safely left the area.



Ian Thorson


When "Lama Christie's" father called the retreat on March 26, asking if his daughter had left the property, "we confirmed this and referred him to her assistant's email and phone number so that he could hear the story from her directly."

The staff saw the document McNally uploaded on April 19, but "we don't know from where or how she posted this."

A few days later, Roach received word of the rescue. And then he found out that two university volunteers were aware the couple had been in the area for some time.

"These individuals may have been supplying the couple with food and water, apparently along with a charged cell phone," he wrote. "I had spent the entire day on Sunday, April 1, in a University meeting in Phoenix with one of these individuals, and they never mentioned anything at all about the couple. The individuals are now with Lama Christie helping her, and we have asked that they give us some information about their role once some healing has occurred."

McNally is also "healing" and has requested that Diamond Mountain officials leave her alone, according to Roach.

A call to Diamond Mountain wasn't immediately returned on Tuesday.

Capas says the Sheriff's Office is awaiting a report from the county medical examiner's office before closing the case.

For the three dozen people still trying to carry out their multi-year adventure into silence, the last few weeks must have presented supreme temptation.


UPDATE: A reader pointed out that McNally's two personal "caretakers" posted a letter on the Internet on April 24. They give more details about why the couple landed in such dire straits:


Almost 10 days ago, Lama Christie fell sick and could not leave the cave for several days. Ein stayed by her side to take care of her, because he did not want to leave her alone. In a few days she began to recover but Ein began to exhibit similar symptoms. In the delirium of their sickness they lost track of the passage of days. Their stock of water ran low and they were too weak to go down from 6,000-7,000 feet to retrieve water. Unfortunately, they were unaware of the lethal consequences of dehydration.

On the morning of Sunday, April 22, she awoke before dawn to find Ein unconscious and unsure if he was breathing. She called for help...

This raises more questions, such as why she didn't call for help sooner. McNally was delirious, sick and had lost track of time for "days" before the rescue -- but managed to upload her diatribe to the Internet on April 19.

We'll let you know if we find out anything else.

My comment in the MetaFilter thread on the post there about this topic.

One thought is that both Christie McNally and Ian Thorson may have contracted Valley Fever (Coccidiodomycosis). > Two-thirds of all U.S. Valley Fever infections are contracted in Arizona. Valley Fever may impact the ability to think clearly or cause suicidal ideation. Diamond Mountain Center, where this fiasco took place, is located in the Arizona desert. There has been construction going on at the Diamond Mountain Center, possibly stirring up the dust that causes this fungal infection.

Ian Thorson's body has already been cremated and I wonder if he were tested for Valley Fever. However, the real dilemma, I would imagine, had much less to do with Valley Fever and everything to do with his being a cult devotee.

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Slate.com

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On a Short Leash
Did you hear about that Buddhist couple who're never more than 15 feet apart? Well, we tried it.
By Hanna Rosin and David Plotz

Posted Wednesday, June 6, 2012, at 5:00 PM ET

75

Five years after Buddhist teachers Christie McNally and Michael Roach received publicity for their bizarrely close—literally, they never strayed more than 15 feet from one another—and celibate relationship, the couple is now divorced and back in the news with the recent death of McNally’s new husband Ian Thorson near Roach’s Buddhist retreat. A delirious McNally and a dead Thorson were found in a cave in the Arizona desert after being expelled from the retreat. Back in 2008, David Plotz and Hanna Rosin attempted McNally and Roach’s practice of staying within 15 feet of each other for 24 hours. The original piece is printed below.*


Geshe Michael Roach (L) and Christie McNally hold a yoga session at the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre, 02 June 2007.Photograph byTED ALJIBE/AFP/Getty Images.
Introduction

Of all the relationship experiments ever tried—polygamy, wife-swapping, no-fault divorce, open marriage—the one described in the May 15 New York Timesmight be the most perverse. For 10 years, Michael Roach and Christie McNally have been together—for every single minute. The two never stray more than 15 feet from each other. When they eat, they share a plate. When they read, they share the book—the faster reader waiting for the slower to finish the page. When they do yoga, they inhale and exhale together. When "he is inspired by an idea in the middle of the night, she rises from their bed and follows him to their office 100 yards down the road, so he can work." Oh, and did we mention that 1) they live in a yurt in the Arizona desert and 2) they're celibate?

Roach and McNally, who are Buddhist teachers (though he also made a fortune in the jewelry business), consider their partnership a "high form of Buddhist practice." Roach told the Times, "It forces you to deal with your own emotions so you can't say, 'I'll take a break.' "

Slate V Video: Watch David and Hanna's day of closeness.

When we read about the couple—separately, because we would never read the newspaper together—it didn't remind us of a high form of Buddhist practice. It reminded us of a particularly sadistic reality TV show or the "Love Toilet," Saturday Night Live's commode built for two. ("Why not share the most intimate moment of them all? … Because when you are in love, even five minutes apart can seem like an eternity.")

But then we began to wonder if we could learn something from these Buddhist claustrophiles. * We've been married (extremely happily!) for almost 11 years, with two children to show for it. But the idea of enforced physical proximity seemed terrifying—not to mention logistically impossible. How could we stay 15 feet apart if one of us had to take child A to her school while the other walked child B to his? Or when David had a meeting in his office at the same moment Hanna had a meeting in hers across town? It also seemed masochistic: Given even the briefest reprieve from work or child care, we're each of us out the door for a fortifying run, shopping expedition, or Starbucks jaunt. Which in turn led us to wonder if all the solo rushing around is its own kind of avoidance. Maybe we're crippling our marriage by neglect. Maybe we've turned it into a tag-team business partnership in which we mechanically swap off work and kid obligations, each viewing the other as a shift laborer.

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Inspired by Slate's "Human Guinea Pig," we decided to subject our marriage to the Roach-McNally discipline. We would follow their rules for 24 hours and see whether it would be an exercise in mutual mindfulness or protracted torture. We cut a 15-foot length of string. Then we warned the kids that Wednesday was going to be very weird. Here's what happened:

Midnight

David: I'm flossed, brushed, reading in bed. Hanna, who's putting laundry away, decides she needs to walk down the hall to deposit some clothes in our daughter's room, which means I have to get out of bed and follow her. Two minutes later, she does this again, and again I must get up. I utter some very un-Buddhalike curses. I can see why Roach and McNally moved into a one-room yurt—no hallways to negotiate, no kid bedrooms, no kids.

Hanna: "This is annoying." "This is annoying." "This is annoying."

This is the love song that opens our 24-hour experiment in marital harmony. Right before I get into bed, random, misplaced objects will sometimes catch my eye. In this case, it was my daughter's clean underwear on the floor and a gong on David's dresser. David wants to get into bed and read his book, and I want to put things in their proper places. I win. Thus, naked, muttering, glasses-free David trudging half-blind behind me into dark rooms trying not to wake up the kids.

Five minutes in, and I can already see the problem with this experiment: It's one thing to stay within 15 feet of your soul mate when you live in a yurt and do yoga all day. Not so easy when you have kids, two jobs, and a house with stairs. So far, this feels more like Lucy and Ricky or warring Siamese twins. But that's OK, right? It's like the few times I've tried (unsuccessfully) to meditate. They say it takes a while before you stop fidgeting and running through your to-do list and just settle down and empty your mind. That's why they call it a journey.


For more, follow the link

Roach went bad years ago, broke a boat load of Buddhist vows. Initially he was a wunderkind for the Tibetan Lama's but then started taking his then girl friend on his retreats and playing hide the salami with her.

[www.nypost.com]

Now he's nothing but a oily con-man who knows Tibetan.

As far as the cave dwelling goes, it's bad and usually a one way trip. I've read more than a few contemporary accounts of monks on Mt. Athos who retreated to caves and only lasted at best a year or two before dying. Some only months. But it's not just the cave dwelling thats bad, its the sort of people it attracts. Think about it, do any of you find meditating in a cave for months on end, being alone and your only food is water and gruel? You gotta be short a few cards short in the mental deck if this is attractive.

It's bad even in Tibetan Buddhism where the Dali Lama had to come out and scold the monastics for doing this as those who went this route either died or were crippled from the experience.

Here's the thing Westerns don't get. We only hear about the success stories from these cave dwelling retreats and not the disasters. Yeah go read the Desert Fathers and their cave dwelling bretheran. But they won't tell you how many had slow, painful deaths or went insane from the lonliness. The same applies to the Buddhists and Yoga types who do this.

And yes lonliness can cause serious psychological problems.

Almost a year ago National Geographic did a series about a man who was going to live in the wilds of Alaska with no human contact for a year. His only contact was by SAT phone for emergencies. He lasted about 4 months before cracking up and almost dying from starvation. He pointed out the lack of human contact was horrible and was weirding him out.

I have to say I have met Michael and friends. They offer you to find a love one, in the way of englithment, they even say being in a couple it s a sign that you are about to get englightment. there is so much pressure for couples in this group. I can imagine how Ian and Christie might have felt. How can you work your couple issues ( let s be realistic there s gonna be issues!) if you are not even allowed to speak? and if being in a couple gives you an status in the group.
people that are in a couple in this cult are presented as angles, mystifing their relationship and becoming rol models for single newes.
It must be a shock to realize that your relationship is not working. I imagine that s why michael hit the clubs when christie left him.
Everyone who is in a couple knows there are difficult times, can u imagine that in the desert? and not being allowed to speak? no wonder why there is a knife in all this story.

There are reports coming in about a number of people who became ill from a viral illness (hantavirus) transmitted by deer mice.

These persons became infected during visits made to a wilderness national park, whilst staying in a particular subsection of cabins whose interiors had been contaminated by deer mice.

This illustrates the sundry dangers of wilderness living, let alone making a retreat in a cave when already in a distraught state of mind.

This viral illness (which can be fatal if not DX'd and treated ASAP, was first identified when many people became ill in the Four Corners Area of the US.

As Walter pointed out, cave dwelling is not to be taken lightly. We know only of the few whose accomplisments were considered worth recording. Of the many hundreds and thousands who sickened or went mad and died alone, those went unrecorded.

Maharshi lived in a cave on Mt Arunachala, but a local householder kept a kindly eye on his welfare and at one point, secured him medical attention. Maharshi was one of the lucky ones, though if alive today, he might if not too far out in la la land, deplore how his name has been exploited and commodified and how the area he practiced in and loved, has in his exploited memory, been turned into habitate for spiritual consumers and vulgarian gurus.

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When Buddhism goes bad: How a yoga and meditation retreat turned cult-like and deadly

How did a troubled follower of a charismatic, renegade American monk end up dead in a remote cave in Arizona? Salon/March 16, 2015

By Laura Miller

Text of this article can be read here:


[culteducation.com]