As mentioned elsewhere, there are teachings (exposition)

and public speaking and stage presence (elocution/theatre arts)

On this page some are suggesting that Barry Longs material had some simliarities to Eckhart Tolle and both, possible to Lao Tse

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I am not saying anything about Eckharts Message..
He does acknowledge other text in his message and practically all religions.
If you listen to Barry Long though it is oddly familiar twenty years earlier.
same message. Which is probably the same as Tao 600 B.C.

The original post here is to mention that there are so many teachers showing up offering enlightenment. Which could happen through any teacher if the core message is the same.
But the core message likely comes from 600 B.C.

David


Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:35 am

flower
Guest

My litmus test for teachers is whether presence *arises in me through their teachings. With many teachers it doesn't, which doesn't mean to say they're not awakened or they're not channelling the truth to other people; I guess it just means that it doesn't resonate with me.

Eckhart resonates with me, deeply, always

*Corboy 'presence' is this another term for internalized Ideal Parent? Many of us have disrupted childhoods and emerge into adulthood with an inner gap.

We were not able to finish building a self at a time when this was entirely age appropriate and necessary.

Heinz Kohut defined mental health as an ability to find, throughout ones life appropriate "self-objects" to relate with and in adult intimacy, to know, face to face.

A public image is not the same as knowing someone or being known by someone.

As for public images of love and light..

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[now-for-you.com]

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It seems to me all new-age pursuits can make us feel good for a time. I think our mind likes explanations and solutions. To me, say, The Work is not so much a dropping of thought, but simply a changing around of thought: this was seen as true, now it is no longer seen as true. And of course anything that gives one a sense of freedom from pain is a huge hit. And I'm all for freedom from pain - I'm no catholic - but what I observe in myself and others is there is some time of feeling resolved and blissful, and then afterwards there's this kind of spiritual hangover, when (I think) we discover that in fact it doesn mean anything was resolved, just we thought it was for a time because we got swept up in whatever technique as being the 'solution'. And so, as Dwright says, we then go off in search of our next 'hit'. And the cash registers ring.


I'm sure this isn't always the case, and for those who have truly been transformed by some technique or other- permanently - I congratulate you. But I am feeling in myself an impatience for looking towards anything as the 'solution'. There is none for me. I've just got to live my life as best I can, and try to be a good person. That's it. And on another level, that makes me feel a bit lost, because I liked all my accoutrements and affiliations with techniques and theories. I liked my toys.

Oh and Claudia, I too have heard stories that would make your toes curl about .......a LOT of our new-age beacons of love and light.

One of my friends spent some time coordinating the itinerary of various Spiritual events and festivals, and she has stories - Oh boy! These ego-less pure souls screaming at a young floor worker for forgetting their herb tea and suchlike.

I'll name no names - okay - except one, because I personally find her teeth grating. (name omitted here, you can find it on the live URL- it isnt anyone who has been discussed on Rickross.com at this time. Corboy). She apparently is draconian and does it all under that shiny smiley air-hostess-turned-psychic veneer.

See? Ten years of spiritual work, and I still gossip. There's no hope for me.

(Smile) Claire

Lao Tze has to be one of the most ripped off authors in history(along with Buddha), just about every New Age guru quotes him without attribution in order to make themselves seem wise to a addlepatted and desperate audience who is looking for the express train to enlightenment. They don't get that all they'll ever get from the likes of Trolle is just more empty words from a man who is less than those who attend his seminars and buy his books and tapes.

Most could benefit far more from simply sitting quitely for 10 minutes every day than listening to a morose, manipulative and lying fraud such as Trolle.

And one other thing, those who run their mouths about Love and Light are usually the first to be exposed as fakes and hypocrites. The real ones 'do' or too busy practicing these qualities to run their mouths about it. Furthermore if they are serious they should be actively involved in some sort of charity work or at least be a decent kind hearted person. Which BTW is something I rarely saw among those who attended New Age workshops. If anything being involved in the New Age/New Thought movement regresses a person, it makes them selfish, weak and neurotic.

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Thinkwise23
People get into this kind of spirituality because they think it's all fluffy and blissful, and there are no real rules, it's all about feeling better. However Tolle's books are not all light and fluffy. They are cruel, insensitive and brutal in their content to the point that you have to wonder how the hell it gets authorised in the first place.

There are too many examples in his books to list, but the main one which is the basis of all his 'teachings' is that you have to give up all identity of self. He eloquently disgards our wonderful personalities by calling them 'a voice in the head' that we must disidentify from, whilst using his own voice to state that. He claims that the 'real' you is not the thinker, and your true identity is just 'space', however he does not provide any evidence to back this up. He just says it in that quiet, slow, spiritual manner which is proof enough that he knows 'truth' and you don't.

The idea of the larger soul being something distinct from the every day or usual personality, is a fairly major element of Hinduism, AFAIK. This isn't necessarily brutal at all; Ramana Maharshi would probably say that although it might sound brutal, as far as being disturbing goes, the intent is exactly the opposite.

The point of disengaging from unproductive elements of the ego, isn't to lose all discernment, and start buying up whatever books and tapes you get told to. If someone tells you to do that, then irrespective of what they might be saying to you about experiencing the calm of the Void within, they are a hypocrite and a fraud. It's fairly simple.

In my own opinion, part of experiencing real spiritual development, actually involves becoming less suggestible, and susceptible to the influence of frauds. When you develop experience of what real peace looks and feels like, you can also then begin to discern more clearly, what peace does NOT look like, and you can use that information, to discern whether or not an individual who you are looking at, is in a state of peace themselves.

Cult leaders and peddlers of fake spirituality are not happy, healthy, internally peaceful people. The entire reason why they're trying to make millions of dollars, and gain attention from people, is because they are narcissists. They are trying to fill a hole that cannot be filled; you have to actually go into said hole, and confront it and deal with it, rather than continually running away from it, and thinking that being a millionaire and getting on daytime talk TV shows will heal you. It won't.

I'm a narcissist myself; I know what the craving for narcissistic supply feels like. If I didn't care about hurting people, I'd probably be tempted to become someone like Tolle or some of the others myself. Then again, however, perhaps I wouldn't; because I like to at least hope that I've already seen, that money and external success are not the real cure for the problem. I need to be willing to really confront my demons and look them in the eye; and I don't want to do that, because it's scary.

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petrus4
I'm a narcissist myself; I know what the craving for narcissistic supply feels like. If I didn't care about hurting people, I'd probably be tempted to become someone like Tolle or some of the others myself. Then again, however, perhaps I wouldn't; because I like to at least hope that I've already seen, that money and external success are not the real cure for the problem. I need to be willing to really confront my demons and look them in the eye; and I don't want to do that, because it's scary.

Hey, I'm in that club!

First encountered ol' Sam in 2003. Turned my world completely upside-down, which is a pathetic understatement.

The whole experience turned out to be good for me in the end, and from the looks of it in this thread, you've been blazing your way too. So here's some best wishes.

BTW, ever read any Karen Horney?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2012 10:16AM by EverVigilant.

The intrinsic issue with all this is that there are no teachings and there is no teacher. They all know this, people like Tolle, but still they are spinning the next book or whatever. I guess he feels like he can make a difference to middle class America.
It just ends up being more information though for you to take in and then another set of illusions that some of the followers are living by. Very few people have anything happen to them as a result of these "teachings". It's not that kind of thing and once you grasp that then you don't seek anymore words from these people.

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Very few people have anything happen to them as a result of these "teachings". It's not that kind of thing and once you grasp that then you don't seek anymore words from these people.

Sometimes something does happen. By going to Tolle events, one becomes part of the entire social scene that pursues these kinds of gurus and experiences. And in some cases, Tolle not being available for personal attention, these seekers will, primed by Tolle material, listen for recommendations to other gurus, made within this social scene.

Its a rather hazardous social scene, despite people being very nice and pleasant to be with...so long as they get what they want and are not opposed.

It is a social scene where a guru's story is not fact checked and where anyone who has theatre arts and a good style of patter can attract a following.

There is a newly released film, Kumare in which the protagonist decides as an experiment, to impersonate an Indian guru, complete with the mannerisms.

To his own amazement, and worry, he attracted followers. In the end, he let them know it was all pretend, but the result was very complicated.

[www.google.com]

An experienced Zen practitoner who has written a lot about the hazards of the teaching role saw this film has some interesting perspectives.

[www.google.com]

Yes I see what you mean. I was thinking more about whether people who are suffering have been transformed by these people and their teachings.

I think what Tolle is teaching is actually quite naive and dangerous. Regular depression is bad enough but it doesn't necessarily mean that you should try and dump the ego in order to get over it. What would this do, this attempt to disidentify and in effect destroy the ego? It's there for a reason. You could end up in a real world of hell as you become schizophrenic with ego on the periphery or in pieces with nothing to live through. That is what the first stage of disidentifying with ego could result in. It's happened to people, not that Tolle would admit that.

Do they think ego is just going to disappear becausee a person doesn't want to be identified with it anymore? It's naive and half-baked this idea.