Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 10, 2010 10:23AM
What David would no doubt have been like, had he chosen, an "average" career path.....!
[content.mycareer.com.au]
(....however most of the observations, would seem to remain just as pertinent,
even in David's current self-employed status operating his own semi-criminal cult....)
*
University of Sydney psychotherapist John Clarke has made a life-long study of psychopaths in the workforce and is the author of two books on the subject - Working with Monsters and The Pocket Psycho.
He says workplace psychopaths commonly intimidate fellow workers, sometimes behave impulsively, always lack remorse and often are glib and superficially charming.
"About half the people in any workplace won't be affected.
"If anything, they will think they are good guys because psychopaths go out of their way to cultivate people who they can use," Dr Clarke says.
"It's from the other half of the workforce the psychopath selects victims to wage war on. The weapons of war include bullying, putting down, humiliating in front of others, stealing credit for work done by others and spreading false rumours about other people.
"They will tear people apart to get where they want to be," he says.
*
"These psychopaths ... have no compunction, no pity. They will level people to the ground without feeling. That is what they enjoy," he says.
*
"The second type is virtually unstoppable. They are the people who have so much power in an organisation they can't be touched.
"These people are usually in positions where they can actually head off or successfully counter any attempts to get rid of them.They hang on like grim death and leave their positions when they want to."
Dr Clarke says it is immensely difficult weeding out executive psychopaths.
*
He says management and staff have to be educated about the psychopath's behaviour and develop a united stand so people are less likely to become victims. Psychopaths find it difficult to operate against this sort of united stand, he says.
*
"But rehabilitation almost never works. All it does is give them new social skills to manipulate their victims," he says.
*
What staff should do:
Do not try to negotiate - there is little point and it can offer your persecutor new angles for attack.
Educate yourself about the behaviour of psychopaths and discreetly find out if fellow workers are suffering similar behaviour.
Carefully document everything that they do to you and approach your HR department. Expect it to be extremely difficult to prove.
Inform family and friends - they become your support base and they will be affected by your gradual psychological disintegration, which could include anxiety and depression.
Consider changing jobs as quickly as possible if no action is taken against the psychopath. Leave no matter how unfair you think that may be.
[content.mycareer.com.au]
(....however most of the observations, would seem to remain just as pertinent,
even in David's current self-employed status operating his own semi-criminal cult....)
*
University of Sydney psychotherapist John Clarke has made a life-long study of psychopaths in the workforce and is the author of two books on the subject - Working with Monsters and The Pocket Psycho.
He says workplace psychopaths commonly intimidate fellow workers, sometimes behave impulsively, always lack remorse and often are glib and superficially charming.
"About half the people in any workplace won't be affected.
"If anything, they will think they are good guys because psychopaths go out of their way to cultivate people who they can use," Dr Clarke says.
"It's from the other half of the workforce the psychopath selects victims to wage war on. The weapons of war include bullying, putting down, humiliating in front of others, stealing credit for work done by others and spreading false rumours about other people.
"They will tear people apart to get where they want to be," he says.
*
"These psychopaths ... have no compunction, no pity. They will level people to the ground without feeling. That is what they enjoy," he says.
*
"The second type is virtually unstoppable. They are the people who have so much power in an organisation they can't be touched.
"These people are usually in positions where they can actually head off or successfully counter any attempts to get rid of them.They hang on like grim death and leave their positions when they want to."
Dr Clarke says it is immensely difficult weeding out executive psychopaths.
*
He says management and staff have to be educated about the psychopath's behaviour and develop a united stand so people are less likely to become victims. Psychopaths find it difficult to operate against this sort of united stand, he says.
*
"But rehabilitation almost never works. All it does is give them new social skills to manipulate their victims," he says.
*
What staff should do:
Do not try to negotiate - there is little point and it can offer your persecutor new angles for attack.
Educate yourself about the behaviour of psychopaths and discreetly find out if fellow workers are suffering similar behaviour.
Carefully document everything that they do to you and approach your HR department. Expect it to be extremely difficult to prove.
Inform family and friends - they become your support base and they will be affected by your gradual psychological disintegration, which could include anxiety and depression.
Consider changing jobs as quickly as possible if no action is taken against the psychopath. Leave no matter how unfair you think that may be.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: September 10, 2010 07:57PM
Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Zeusor,
Thank you for the link....as David has gone to such pains to present the sea voyage as just so much time spent "ever so merrily",
...would I be right in supposing that after a combined SEVENTY years of faithful service, Roland, Sue and Daniel were denied a place?
I cannot see their names mentioned at any point....they were in Aust. weren't they, and could easily have been included in the "festivities"...
...but that spiteful old goat McKay vengefully trying to rub in their noses the consequences of "crossing him".
and reminding us all once more that anyone of the "cheery" JC folk on board, could be tossed aside, on the slightest whim of McKays' displeasure....
You are welcome, Mal.
DM derives pleasure from manipulating people, period. If he figures he can take someone down the garden path by exploiting some ambiguity of language, then he will. But if that doesn't work, he has no problem with out and out deceit. It doesn't matter to him, the only point is to get a reaction. His behaviour is similar to that of serial murderers, who, once in custody, pretend to wish to divulge information about unsolved crimes, but really don't want anything but attention. He loves to make folks dance. He isn't concerned with his own credibility, just with exerting control over other people, whether it's by enraging them, or deceiving them, or as he must do in his work exploiting people's misery, feigning empathy. The only goal for him is to get a response that he feels he controlled. It's all about control and nothing about dialogue with DM.
Quote
muppet
DM is particularly concerned that professional 'cult-busters' can impact negatively on their recruitment. He claimed that they have a fairly high record of success in 'brainwashing people against groups if they are able to get the person before they have had deep personal involvement in the group'.
This is one reason for the JC's ruthless recruitment strategies. The object is to get the recruit IN quickly before they have time to assess and question the beliefs and practises of the group with anyone else. Once the recruit is brought in, they are taught that they have already been brainwashed by their families and by society since birth and encouraged to be suspicious of them. Slick. Anyone who is convinced they have been brainwashed becomes very keen to alter that. Decisions made by the group are then slickly presented to the recruit alongside a less attractive option (eg choosing eternal damnation or choosing to die an unbeleiver ). Reminders that no one who puts his / her hand to the plough should look back are added. Questions are sidelined as evidence that the recruit does not have faith. Fear is the only alternative presented by the group who claim that society lives in fear (and not by faith) In this setting when a new recruit 'decides' to stay after the trial week, they are unaware that they have been the victime of coercive persuasion. The group are constantly reminded of how evil 'cultbusters' are and one by one are inducted to recruit in the same way, on the basis that we will all try to justify our own behaviour. Therefore the recruit who attempts to recruit others becomes doubly convinced that thry are doing the right thing. DM's letters on cognitive dissonance explain this. DM constantly reminds members that everything they do is their own decision ( lie) and that 'there are no locks on the doors' (but the only alternative option presented is going to hell ) . Door locks are not necessary when a mind has been chained.
Ex members are very brave people.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 13, 2010 01:34AM
"Carefully document everything that they do to you".....
as I stated earlier, as the "public record" on the JC site will be rapidly altered in order to deceive the unwary...
The general public have though been lucky enough to have been honourably served by "Verity Evangeline"
who has recently recorded an exchange (from a gentleman who ultimately declined membership), on the JC forum,
establishing exactly how McKay has purposely engineered a smear campaign against Joe's mother "Sheila",
(..an extract..."Sorta Scammy Kinda Scummy Real Sick Shadie 09/09/2010 20:36"....
AND permanently recorded for posterity on [jcs.xjcs.org])
"......it seems like Dave get other people to do his dirty work so Jessee would have kicked me i guess..Dave got me to go snake ass after shiela and hazzle her all I could so shiela would get pissed and blow up.to make her blow up in public.i don’t even think Joe knows how much Dave hates shiela.how he don’t want them reunited.I got that message.he just wants to make it look like he is being kinder to her but he is still real mad over the hole thing.now don’t get me wrong I still hate what happen to Reinhard,I still don’t think Sheila likes Dave or cares what was done to Reinhard but Dave hates shiela to and wants her out of Joes life for good.so he wants strangers to get in her grill when she uses the forum but how does that help healing? I feel like shit for what I done helping in that.i still think Sheila is a dragonmomma.i think shes a fake.but it aint my place to diss her really and I gotta work on that atuitude of judgeing people.but the reason I feel bad to her is what was done to Reinhard and the fact shiela aint no more sorry than shit.anyone can tell that. But I got bitched out a couple weeks ago when I said Joe should go to his mom is she needed him IN THE CASE THERE AS NO ONE ELSE. DAVE screeched me out good on that.said I was giving her ammo.Joe you do talk to your mom like a stranger would.there is no love.not on either side.why not just leave each other alone til you can both get real? Joe you aint gonna have to relations with your mom as long as you are with Dave.he wont let it happen no mater what he’s speeling on the forum.he’s work behind the scenes to make sure it don’t happen. I regret my part....."
What an unconscionable low-life McKay is.....FABRICATING character assassination, en masse, in order to "prove" his own hateful behaviour towards Sheila somehow "reasonable", ....What a God-forsaken worm he is, conspiring (so he thought) out of the public eye and then parsimoniously crowing about his "good will" to all on his own forum....
and a day later,...Sorta Scammy Kinda Scummy Real Sick Shadie 10/09/2010 01:09 [jcs.xjcs.org]
i wonder why you haven't denied asking me to hazzle shiela?you have answered my coments so far but you avoid that.guess you no i have the emails.dont need to rewrite any thing.you wrote the emails.you no it.i no it.hope Joe is some day able to get hooked up with his relations again if he really wants to.they dont seem that great to me so maybe he's beter off with out them but they are still his family.when you look at there emails to each other its a wierd dance.doesnt even seem like family just some strangers trying to punk each other down.good luck Joe.i dont no where you is worset off.
Unethical.
Illegal.
UnChristian!
There IS of course, a transparent disinformation campaign underway now
to try somehow, to still "save face" for McKay,...("lies" about his "lies"...!)
Satanic McKay, setting out to covertly poison public opinion
....about Joe's mother by calculated dishonesty....
.....parading mythical "supporting opinion" he willfully invented....
God save us from this SCUM!
as I stated earlier, as the "public record" on the JC site will be rapidly altered in order to deceive the unwary...
The general public have though been lucky enough to have been honourably served by "Verity Evangeline"
who has recently recorded an exchange (from a gentleman who ultimately declined membership), on the JC forum,
establishing exactly how McKay has purposely engineered a smear campaign against Joe's mother "Sheila",
(..an extract..."Sorta Scammy Kinda Scummy Real Sick Shadie 09/09/2010 20:36"....
AND permanently recorded for posterity on [jcs.xjcs.org])
"......it seems like Dave get other people to do his dirty work so Jessee would have kicked me i guess..Dave got me to go snake ass after shiela and hazzle her all I could so shiela would get pissed and blow up.to make her blow up in public.i don’t even think Joe knows how much Dave hates shiela.how he don’t want them reunited.I got that message.he just wants to make it look like he is being kinder to her but he is still real mad over the hole thing.now don’t get me wrong I still hate what happen to Reinhard,I still don’t think Sheila likes Dave or cares what was done to Reinhard but Dave hates shiela to and wants her out of Joes life for good.so he wants strangers to get in her grill when she uses the forum but how does that help healing? I feel like shit for what I done helping in that.i still think Sheila is a dragonmomma.i think shes a fake.but it aint my place to diss her really and I gotta work on that atuitude of judgeing people.but the reason I feel bad to her is what was done to Reinhard and the fact shiela aint no more sorry than shit.anyone can tell that. But I got bitched out a couple weeks ago when I said Joe should go to his mom is she needed him IN THE CASE THERE AS NO ONE ELSE. DAVE screeched me out good on that.said I was giving her ammo.Joe you do talk to your mom like a stranger would.there is no love.not on either side.why not just leave each other alone til you can both get real? Joe you aint gonna have to relations with your mom as long as you are with Dave.he wont let it happen no mater what he’s speeling on the forum.he’s work behind the scenes to make sure it don’t happen. I regret my part....."
What an unconscionable low-life McKay is.....FABRICATING character assassination, en masse, in order to "prove" his own hateful behaviour towards Sheila somehow "reasonable", ....What a God-forsaken worm he is, conspiring (so he thought) out of the public eye and then parsimoniously crowing about his "good will" to all on his own forum....
and a day later,...Sorta Scammy Kinda Scummy Real Sick Shadie 10/09/2010 01:09 [jcs.xjcs.org]
i wonder why you haven't denied asking me to hazzle shiela?you have answered my coments so far but you avoid that.guess you no i have the emails.dont need to rewrite any thing.you wrote the emails.you no it.i no it.hope Joe is some day able to get hooked up with his relations again if he really wants to.they dont seem that great to me so maybe he's beter off with out them but they are still his family.when you look at there emails to each other its a wierd dance.doesnt even seem like family just some strangers trying to punk each other down.good luck Joe.i dont no where you is worset off.
Unethical.
Illegal.
UnChristian!
There IS of course, a transparent disinformation campaign underway now
to try somehow, to still "save face" for McKay,...("lies" about his "lies"...!)
Satanic McKay, setting out to covertly poison public opinion
....about Joe's mother by calculated dishonesty....
.....parading mythical "supporting opinion" he willfully invented....
God save us from this SCUM!
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 14, 2010 05:43AM
Here, I too quickly note and RECORD McKays "justification" for removing all of the posts proving him of orchestrated vilification,
(AFTER McKay, full of his own swagger, hypocritically, challenged the gentleman with the posts from him, to produce them
(no doubt gloating to himself that they would have been already deleted)....but which the gentleman promptly did!
Re:Joe and Sheila... 3rd party comments 11/09/2010 05:04
Dave here. I am deleting this post, as it is a total fabrication for Peter to say that I put him up to writing the stuff he wrote about Sheila. I commented to him AFTER he made his posts, in which he could see through Sheila's deceptions, that it had the good effect of causing Sheila to show her true colours when she started snapping back at him. But Peter has lied about what really went down and even tried to fabricate a phoney "email" from me. I will save such information in future, and use it in court if necessary. I am relieved that Banned Peter has now also been banned. --Dave
[www.jesuschristians.com]
David John McKay covertly conspired to incite, a soul (he thought that he could now manipulate sufficiently), to publicly vilify Joe's mother, as "evidence" of the "overwhelming public support" David and the JesusChristians have garnered. Mckay is a conniving fraud, a self justifying predator on families.
McKay "commented"(read sought to incite the party concerned to act so), well BEFORE the particular posts that had been reluctantly made by the gentleman, vilifying Sheila. McKay's laughable artifice is only just possible now as he has CIRCUMVENTED access to the the primary documents.
Go to "court" Sir!!. McKays' bluster is only in order to despairingly "persuade" those trapped in his cult, and the non informed public, that he never acted as he in fact we know he did..(McKay would risk losing his empire were there to be a further run of many more departures)
David is telling us he feels EXTREMELY threatened here....
Send me the emails! Post them here....
Send the emails to the FBI or the Police....
.....and then to the wider press...!
All of them have the address of the sender encrypted behind a simple mask of code, which identifies their origin. Thats why they are frequently submittable as evidence in court. The actual sender may be certifiably traced, by those qualified to interpret the easily accessible ISP codes.
We now have ON RECORD McKay desperately accusing you of "fabricating" the emails McKay sent to you.....
We both know he has purposely lied...
(AFTER McKay, full of his own swagger, hypocritically, challenged the gentleman with the posts from him, to produce them
(no doubt gloating to himself that they would have been already deleted)....but which the gentleman promptly did!
Re:Joe and Sheila... 3rd party comments 11/09/2010 05:04
Dave here. I am deleting this post, as it is a total fabrication for Peter to say that I put him up to writing the stuff he wrote about Sheila. I commented to him AFTER he made his posts, in which he could see through Sheila's deceptions, that it had the good effect of causing Sheila to show her true colours when she started snapping back at him. But Peter has lied about what really went down and even tried to fabricate a phoney "email" from me. I will save such information in future, and use it in court if necessary. I am relieved that Banned Peter has now also been banned. --Dave
[www.jesuschristians.com]
David John McKay covertly conspired to incite, a soul (he thought that he could now manipulate sufficiently), to publicly vilify Joe's mother, as "evidence" of the "overwhelming public support" David and the JesusChristians have garnered. Mckay is a conniving fraud, a self justifying predator on families.
McKay "commented"(read sought to incite the party concerned to act so), well BEFORE the particular posts that had been reluctantly made by the gentleman, vilifying Sheila. McKay's laughable artifice is only just possible now as he has CIRCUMVENTED access to the the primary documents.
Go to "court" Sir!!. McKays' bluster is only in order to despairingly "persuade" those trapped in his cult, and the non informed public, that he never acted as he in fact we know he did..(McKay would risk losing his empire were there to be a further run of many more departures)
David is telling us he feels EXTREMELY threatened here....
Send me the emails! Post them here....
Send the emails to the FBI or the Police....
.....and then to the wider press...!
All of them have the address of the sender encrypted behind a simple mask of code, which identifies their origin. Thats why they are frequently submittable as evidence in court. The actual sender may be certifiably traced, by those qualified to interpret the easily accessible ISP codes.
We now have ON RECORD McKay desperately accusing you of "fabricating" the emails McKay sent to you.....
We both know he has purposely lied...
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 15, 2010 01:26PM
Dear Peter,
Have you been getting some "friendly email" from any of the JesusChristians or assorted "hangers on", lately?
...letting you know that they "understand" how you feel and that they are so "sorry" there has been this unfortunate "break down in communication",
"grooming" you with pleasantries as far as they can until they finally get to their main point,
that how much better it'd be for "everyone" if you destroyed the emails that you hold from David McKay...
Why Peter!....if so, just toy with them, won't you!....reassure them that you will delete all the "horrible things" that were "mistakenly" said in anger..
(While you store ALL of the emails in a memory stick, safely kept where you may pull it out at your liking, at any point in the future....)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 01:27PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.
Have you been getting some "friendly email" from any of the JesusChristians or assorted "hangers on", lately?
...letting you know that they "understand" how you feel and that they are so "sorry" there has been this unfortunate "break down in communication",
"grooming" you with pleasantries as far as they can until they finally get to their main point,
that how much better it'd be for "everyone" if you destroyed the emails that you hold from David McKay...
Why Peter!....if so, just toy with them, won't you!....reassure them that you will delete all the "horrible things" that were "mistakenly" said in anger..
(While you store ALL of the emails in a memory stick, safely kept where you may pull it out at your liking, at any point in the future....)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 01:27PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: September 16, 2010 01:29AM
Mal, I too have been keeping track of the "Peter" situation. Don't know who he is, but if he keeps them tied up then at least they have less time to concentrate on someone else!
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 16, 2010 08:09PM
Dear Zeusor,
Did you see this classic recently from Casey?
(Casey has been "separated" from the community for over a year....however deceitful McKay duplicitiously pretended this not to be, in order to better fabricate an image of "success" in public, his ever diminishing number of minions being a substantial sore point...)
Re:A letter to Kevin 11/09/2010 17:34 [www.jesus-teachings.com]
Dave and I have had some very serious disagreements. One such disagreement was so serious that I left the community over it. I am still "out" of the community.
And yet I have no problem saying that I love Dave and I think he is a really sincere person despite our disagreements.
I remember several years back when I was making a lot of mistakes and being criticized heavily by Dave. For several days it felt like I just could not do the right thing ( the truth is that I WAS making a lot of careless mistakes).
One morning I woke up feeling just so miserable, like I just couldn't go on. And then that morning Dave was very kind to me.
I remembered something that he had said previously about praying everyday about what he should do; to take a hard line or a soft line with the people he was leading.
I couldn't help but feel like a miracle had happened, even if it was a miracle in my perspective only. I felt so good about being a part of the community and I didn't feel bitter towards Dave because I knew that his criticisms were true, after I took some time to just think about what I was doing.
I'm not afraid to say when I disagree with Dave. He and I both know that. I don't defend Dave because of some loyalty to the group, because I'm not even in the group.
I defend Dave when I feel that he is telling the truth the same as I do with anyone. I defended you, Peter, when I felt you were telling the truth.
Anyway, the point of all this is that disagreements are not the end of the world. People disagree. Sometimes it's an opinion issue and sometimes it's a moral issue. But disagreements on whatever level do not justify hatred towards those you disagree with, Peter.
What you are doing now is nothing more than hateful retaliation for being corrected and deep down you know that.
casey
JC Member (NOT)
Posts: 611
Points: 897
...and what Casey here, is doing is dutiful bootlicking, out of fear of further community reproach and deep down he knows that!
However otherwise, Casey beautifully captures the "battered wife syndrome" that is the day to day life of the JC's....
....every day the nervous torment of Davids capricious abuse.....Will he praise me? Will he condemn me?...will I be left to myself?
The JesusChristians are a facist society, where the whims of the "Great Leader" dictate the lives of all those below him....
Casey (I'll admit I'm surprised to see) has had the courage to stand up for himself on some issue....
that actually makes him, nothing other a "marked man" now....
...he will never regain the status, he may have once held in the JC's......
...and he should simply terminate the agony of a "drawn out", but inevitable, departure...
But here in his posting, we can also see how he has been, and continues to be, manipulated.....
....believing David to be a "good man" and that in the event of any "difficulties",
..it is Casey's "unworthiness" that is the root cause....... emotionally swindled through and through!!
Did you see this classic recently from Casey?
(Casey has been "separated" from the community for over a year....however deceitful McKay duplicitiously pretended this not to be, in order to better fabricate an image of "success" in public, his ever diminishing number of minions being a substantial sore point...)
Re:A letter to Kevin 11/09/2010 17:34 [www.jesus-teachings.com]
Dave and I have had some very serious disagreements. One such disagreement was so serious that I left the community over it. I am still "out" of the community.
And yet I have no problem saying that I love Dave and I think he is a really sincere person despite our disagreements.
I remember several years back when I was making a lot of mistakes and being criticized heavily by Dave. For several days it felt like I just could not do the right thing ( the truth is that I WAS making a lot of careless mistakes).
One morning I woke up feeling just so miserable, like I just couldn't go on. And then that morning Dave was very kind to me.
I remembered something that he had said previously about praying everyday about what he should do; to take a hard line or a soft line with the people he was leading.
I couldn't help but feel like a miracle had happened, even if it was a miracle in my perspective only. I felt so good about being a part of the community and I didn't feel bitter towards Dave because I knew that his criticisms were true, after I took some time to just think about what I was doing.
I'm not afraid to say when I disagree with Dave. He and I both know that. I don't defend Dave because of some loyalty to the group, because I'm not even in the group.
I defend Dave when I feel that he is telling the truth the same as I do with anyone. I defended you, Peter, when I felt you were telling the truth.
Anyway, the point of all this is that disagreements are not the end of the world. People disagree. Sometimes it's an opinion issue and sometimes it's a moral issue. But disagreements on whatever level do not justify hatred towards those you disagree with, Peter.
What you are doing now is nothing more than hateful retaliation for being corrected and deep down you know that.
casey
JC Member (NOT)
Posts: 611
Points: 897
...and what Casey here, is doing is dutiful bootlicking, out of fear of further community reproach and deep down he knows that!
However otherwise, Casey beautifully captures the "battered wife syndrome" that is the day to day life of the JC's....
....every day the nervous torment of Davids capricious abuse.....Will he praise me? Will he condemn me?...will I be left to myself?
The JesusChristians are a facist society, where the whims of the "Great Leader" dictate the lives of all those below him....
Casey (I'll admit I'm surprised to see) has had the courage to stand up for himself on some issue....
that actually makes him, nothing other a "marked man" now....
...he will never regain the status, he may have once held in the JC's......
...and he should simply terminate the agony of a "drawn out", but inevitable, departure...
But here in his posting, we can also see how he has been, and continues to be, manipulated.....
....believing David to be a "good man" and that in the event of any "difficulties",
..it is Casey's "unworthiness" that is the root cause....... emotionally swindled through and through!!
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: September 16, 2010 10:39PM
Yes, the Casey case is a classic one.
Oh Casey, can't you see what you have had done to you?
And what manipulation by Dave!
I have just finished watching the last episode of the new version of "The Prisoner" by HBO, as shown on ABC TV over the last weeks. Now why does Casey come to mind?
Ol' Eye Poker is revealed as a tragic prisoner, ever rebellious, a personality never ready to submit to The Leader, ever challenging, and played with by The Tyrant for loyalty and subservience in a game where in the end he is grateful and back in line having been given a drop of kindness....even though he is out of the community and one presumes out of their financial assistance. And still in Kenya.......WHAT THE?
Quote
And then that morning Dave was very kind to me.
Oh Casey, can't you see what you have had done to you?
And what manipulation by Dave!
I have just finished watching the last episode of the new version of "The Prisoner" by HBO, as shown on ABC TV over the last weeks. Now why does Casey come to mind?
Ol' Eye Poker is revealed as a tragic prisoner, ever rebellious, a personality never ready to submit to The Leader, ever challenging, and played with by The Tyrant for loyalty and subservience in a game where in the end he is grateful and back in line having been given a drop of kindness....even though he is out of the community and one presumes out of their financial assistance. And still in Kenya.......WHAT THE?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: September 17, 2010 04:51AM
Mal: there is a potential danger with public testimonials, such as Casey's or any of the others found here or on the Jesus Christians site.
If the testimony is to a person or a human organization (as in this case since, after all, the Jesus Christians is a human organization which is led by humans and not by God Himself) there is the possibility that the person or organization may change in time from good to bad.
For example, teaching discipline to students or to one's own children is essentially good, and getting them to articulate answers to spoken questions may facilitate learning. But discipline in time may mutate into abuse, if applied improperly and under the wrong conditions.
Basic social psychology is at work here. At this point, since Casey and the rest have made public statements praising David McKay and the Jesus Christians community it will be much harder for him to admit that it is abusive. It is humiliating to have to "eat one's words" and Casey/Roland/Sue/whoever will more than likely redefine the abuses as "discipline" designed to improve the Jesus Christian member who was whipped or otherwise mistreated.
This is very much like what happens with a woman who is abused by her husband, physically or otherwise. Having expressed her love for him and committed herself to living with him "for better or for worse" she finds it impossible to entertain the thought that he could and would deliberately hurt her. So she redefines the abuse and views it either as discipline to make her a better wife and mother, or as a punishment she deserves for failing to please her husband.
Public testimonies to God or abstract principles like love or patriotism do not carry the same potentiality for negative consequences, for the simple reason that God and abstract principles do not change from good to bad, from healthy to unhealthy.
Virtually any conversion experience will feel similar on the level of emotions, whether the conversion is to Christ, Mohammed, Marx, David McKay, or Elvis.
That does not mean all conversions are the same, just that they feel the same.
Thankfully, the JC cult is dissipating, and in twenty years will probably be extinct.
If the testimony is to a person or a human organization (as in this case since, after all, the Jesus Christians is a human organization which is led by humans and not by God Himself) there is the possibility that the person or organization may change in time from good to bad.
For example, teaching discipline to students or to one's own children is essentially good, and getting them to articulate answers to spoken questions may facilitate learning. But discipline in time may mutate into abuse, if applied improperly and under the wrong conditions.
Basic social psychology is at work here. At this point, since Casey and the rest have made public statements praising David McKay and the Jesus Christians community it will be much harder for him to admit that it is abusive. It is humiliating to have to "eat one's words" and Casey/Roland/Sue/whoever will more than likely redefine the abuses as "discipline" designed to improve the Jesus Christian member who was whipped or otherwise mistreated.
This is very much like what happens with a woman who is abused by her husband, physically or otherwise. Having expressed her love for him and committed herself to living with him "for better or for worse" she finds it impossible to entertain the thought that he could and would deliberately hurt her. So she redefines the abuse and views it either as discipline to make her a better wife and mother, or as a punishment she deserves for failing to please her husband.
Public testimonies to God or abstract principles like love or patriotism do not carry the same potentiality for negative consequences, for the simple reason that God and abstract principles do not change from good to bad, from healthy to unhealthy.
Virtually any conversion experience will feel similar on the level of emotions, whether the conversion is to Christ, Mohammed, Marx, David McKay, or Elvis.
That does not mean all conversions are the same, just that they feel the same.
Thankfully, the JC cult is dissipating, and in twenty years will probably be extinct.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: September 17, 2010 08:36PM
Look, Casey's testimony is still online, even though he is no longer with the group. Grace's too. She's been out for even longer than him, I believe. Sue's and Roland's too. All of the recent ex-members' testimonies are still there.
Excerpted from Casey's testimony, which is posted the Jesus Christians' web page:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]
I consider myself very lucky to have found people who are so genuinely committed to following God. I feel like my life has meaning now; that what I am doing will count for something even after I die. It is not the group that gives me this feeling, but rather, it is my commitment to trying to work in love with others and obey Jesus that does it.
David McKay was in the past clever enough to have used Casey as his positive example, his poster boy, his doppelganger. First, this was probably the first time in Casey's life that-at least, in his memory-he has been used as a positive role model. This must have felt very good to Casey, and he doubtless is anxious to receive Mr. McKay's approval again and again. He knows that in order to get Mr. McKay's approval again, he must continue to comply with Mr. McKay's coercions, which are disguised as "loving suggestions" or some such.
Mr. McKay's pointing to Casey (these days Joe and Alf) as the example of a "good disciple" has had a powerful effect on the rest of the Jesus Christians. It tells them that if Casey can do this, certainly they can-and they'd better-perform better than Casey, because no one wants to look worse than Casey does, now that McKay has tossed him overboard.
As human beings we (or at least, most of us) need to be in relationship to other people. We need others as friends, confidants, lovers, etc. to offer us affirmation, solace, correction, fellowship, etc.
In normal, healthy relationships, however, we also need time and space for ourselves occasionally so we can obtain rest and spend time in reflection. We will on occasion voluntarily give up our personal agenda on occasion to meet an emergency, whether it concerns our family, out community, or our nation. But once the emergency has passed we go back to our normal lives again.
In abusive group like the Jesus Christians this personal agenda is seldom if ever granted; the member is almost always, if not always, giving up his own right to privacy and the pursuit of his own goals in order to pursue the goals of the group and to submit to the agenda of his authority.
Finally, the process of group building, when it becomes abusive, creates a system that is mutually addictive to both founder(s) and followers. The followers need the founder/leader/Divine Authority to make them feel that they are realzing the proffered goal; the founder/leader/Divine Authority needs his followers (some call them the leader's "narcissistic supply") to make him feel successful, powerful, and truly enlightened.
This leads me to ask a series of questions:
Is it possible to work in love and obey Jesus and NOT be a member of their group?
Can one follow Jesus as an individual?
If Casey's fulfillment is derived from his relationship with Jesus and inner life as an individual, then why does it bother him so when outsiders to the group criticize his group or the leaders of it? Why lash out against them so vociferously?
Why does he equate criticism of the Jesus Christians and/or Mr. and Mrs. McKay with supporting the work of the Devil?
In practice, it looks a lot like he IS deriving his sense of self-worth as an individual from his involvement with his group.
Casey offers a voluntary testimonial to how wonderful the Jesus Christians are--for the first time in his life he feels special and has been given meaning and purpose. This is no doubt true, which is precisely what makes his statements so sad.
Excerpted from Casey's testimony, which is posted the Jesus Christians' web page:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]
I consider myself very lucky to have found people who are so genuinely committed to following God. I feel like my life has meaning now; that what I am doing will count for something even after I die. It is not the group that gives me this feeling, but rather, it is my commitment to trying to work in love with others and obey Jesus that does it.
David McKay was in the past clever enough to have used Casey as his positive example, his poster boy, his doppelganger. First, this was probably the first time in Casey's life that-at least, in his memory-he has been used as a positive role model. This must have felt very good to Casey, and he doubtless is anxious to receive Mr. McKay's approval again and again. He knows that in order to get Mr. McKay's approval again, he must continue to comply with Mr. McKay's coercions, which are disguised as "loving suggestions" or some such.
Mr. McKay's pointing to Casey (these days Joe and Alf) as the example of a "good disciple" has had a powerful effect on the rest of the Jesus Christians. It tells them that if Casey can do this, certainly they can-and they'd better-perform better than Casey, because no one wants to look worse than Casey does, now that McKay has tossed him overboard.
As human beings we (or at least, most of us) need to be in relationship to other people. We need others as friends, confidants, lovers, etc. to offer us affirmation, solace, correction, fellowship, etc.
In normal, healthy relationships, however, we also need time and space for ourselves occasionally so we can obtain rest and spend time in reflection. We will on occasion voluntarily give up our personal agenda on occasion to meet an emergency, whether it concerns our family, out community, or our nation. But once the emergency has passed we go back to our normal lives again.
In abusive group like the Jesus Christians this personal agenda is seldom if ever granted; the member is almost always, if not always, giving up his own right to privacy and the pursuit of his own goals in order to pursue the goals of the group and to submit to the agenda of his authority.
Finally, the process of group building, when it becomes abusive, creates a system that is mutually addictive to both founder(s) and followers. The followers need the founder/leader/Divine Authority to make them feel that they are realzing the proffered goal; the founder/leader/Divine Authority needs his followers (some call them the leader's "narcissistic supply") to make him feel successful, powerful, and truly enlightened.
This leads me to ask a series of questions:
Is it possible to work in love and obey Jesus and NOT be a member of their group?
Can one follow Jesus as an individual?
If Casey's fulfillment is derived from his relationship with Jesus and inner life as an individual, then why does it bother him so when outsiders to the group criticize his group or the leaders of it? Why lash out against them so vociferously?
Why does he equate criticism of the Jesus Christians and/or Mr. and Mrs. McKay with supporting the work of the Devil?
In practice, it looks a lot like he IS deriving his sense of self-worth as an individual from his involvement with his group.
Casey offers a voluntary testimonial to how wonderful the Jesus Christians are--for the first time in his life he feels special and has been given meaning and purpose. This is no doubt true, which is precisely what makes his statements so sad.
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