Lies, lies and more lies Fran. I have just checked my sources again and you lied. You verbally attacked that woman before she likened you to the devil. What lies. How could you tell someone that her son was not hers anymore and that he belonged yo your group now´´

Wasting your life Fran working for Dave is sad. Doesnt it make you frustrated that you want to go out and serve the underpriviledged and downtrodden yet so much of your life is wasted on Dave's sensationalism and attempts to gain media attention? You could achieve so much more for Love and God and Humanity outside of the group. This sensationalism is not "preaching the Gospel". Neither are those booklets. How many are actually read? Have you ever done a survey? Oh no, Dave wouldnt like any evidence interfering with his "truth" and "revelations". Neither would he like any evidence about the efficacy of corporal punishment. Read this:[en.wikipedia.org]
What happened to the revelation of the "Fall of America"?

Yes, you can live a healthy life with one kidney. Donating body parts is an interesting aspect of our evolution as a species. Hair, skin, kidneys. Here's a notion: if it's true that we only use 10% of our brain maybe it's ripe for harvesting. Surely technology will allow it soon. And if we use our imaginations, I'm sure there are many other parts of our anatomy we could give away. There certainly is a need. Right? :wink:

quite right muppet, reposted here to keep it together

from the "Jesus Christians" (sic) website

[cust.idl.net.au]

"Our decision to return to the whip as a form of punishment is actually based on a desire to shorten the period of punishment at the same time that we sharpen the message about punishment. Whips have been used in just about every culture, as a form of punishment, because they inflict a lot of pain without causing much more than superficial and temporary injury to the body. (We will be writing a separate article on the topic of pain, and its relation to hate/violence.)

We have already experimented in a small way with an offender in Kenya, where it is customary for police to routinely flog suspects during interrogations, and where a prison sentence usually includes 25 lashes a day for the first three days of imprisonment. A young man had stolen some things from us and sold them to buy home brewed wine. We offered him the option of receiving five lashes of the whip (and signing a paper to the effect that he had done so willingly, that it was because he had in fact stolen from us, and that he was sorry for his behaviour). He gladly accepting the flogging, which was carried out in the presence of local village representatives. The young man is now back working with us as one of our volunteers."

also see
[cust.idl.net.au]

These sensation mongers are now getting deeper and deeper into control of their followers. Their leader initially pushed them to donate kidneys, now they are into corporal punishment. They do not want the truth that corporal punishment has overwhelmingly been proven to be harmful. Suicide and murder cannot be far away. Not to mention that beatings can damage kidneys.

The sad facts speak for themselves about the Jesus Christians, Cultmalleus. It seems our seemingly static species is compelled to punish the less than righteous. Crime and punishment, we make it up as we go along (just imagine for a moment if the governing mythology was based on something like the Lord of the Rings - suddenly anyone appearing or behaving like an ork would be marginalised). Unfortunately there's very little balance in a sadist when it comes to being fair. The Christian model (including those of most other patriarchal paradigms) has always been a zealous advocate of corporal punishment - just look at the Bush administration. Remember it was the Christian philosophers who gave meaning and substance to the idea of a 'just war'. It seems we're in a perpetual state of persecution.

I've just spent an interesting hour or so browsing through this site. Fran, if you're reading, good work! I didn't realise that you had been so busy. I was chatting with an ex-member tonight (uses the name xenophone or something like that on this site) and he suggested that I have a look at what was being said.

In general, Fran, I agree with you that people here are only going to hear what they want to hear, and what they want to hear is that Rick Ross is a saint and Dave McKay is a devil. Not sure why that is so important to them, but nothing you or I can say will change their minds.

I am particularly impressed by the fact that it is Rick himself who jumps into the fray when an actual member turns up on line. Kind of makes you think that he is a big of a control freak, doesn't it?

Nevertheless, there are a few things I may be able to comment on that you have missed. Yes, there was a letter from 'Mo' (David Berg) that I hung onto for a while way back in the late 70s. He wrote to me personally when I said that I liked some of what he was saying but I wanted to see what I could do about getting those thoughts across to people inside the churches. He more or less said, "Good luck. If you can get them to listen, you're a better man than I am." It was a good souvenir for a while, but I threw it away a short time after I left them. (As you can see, people here will go to great lengths to find something to make a big deal of!)

As for my accountability to the community, I have been kicked out under the grievance system twice... both times before you joined. Once was for telling Cherry to shut up and refusing to apologise for it. I was out for only one day before I came back and apologised. The second time was for calling a satanist who came around trying to cause trouble a dirty name. I was out for a couple of weeks at that time, and Cherry came with me. I can't remember the details about me finally being allowed back in.

Can't remember if it is in this thread or another one on this site, but someone has been telling some story about a 17yo guy who stayed with us and woke up one morning with no underpants on; and also about us going door to door (in Liverpool, I think) trying to get pensioners to give us furniture. I have been scratching my head trying to work out where these stories could have come from, since they sounded totally absurd at first. But there is usually some thread of truth even in the biggest lies. As you know, we often recycle stuff that is thrown out. So perhaps someone saw some furniture out on the curb in Liverpool and knocked on a door to ask if it was being thrown out. The only time I've even heard of us going door to door to witness was in that little town in Wyoming where Atilla and Jessica were stranded for a few weeks while getting an engine fixed.

Now, about the 17yo guy... I can only think of three times in our history when we have had any dealings with anyone under 18 years of age. One was Lakshmi, in India, who also gets a mention on this site. The full story with Lakshmi was not only that her uncle was forcing her to have sex, but that her father had locked her up in preparation for a forced marriage to a Hindu (since he had heard that she had converted to Christianity). Her 18th birthday was only a week away when she escaped and came to us for help. We paid for her to stay in a hotel on her own, since it is against the law in India to convert anyone under 18 years of age. A few years later, her mother was arrested for having killed her daughter-in-law, and her father told Lakshmi (after she had turned 18), that she owed it to the family to kill herself to save them the humiliation of having a daughter convert to Christianity.

So we have to say that the Rick Ross set is taking the side of a violent, fundamentalist, sexually perverted family against a young girl (one week away from being 18) becoming a Christian. You see how easy it is to end up justifying anything when you get on the kind of witch hunts that this web site fosters?

Anyway, the second minor to stay with us was Bobby Kelly, who had written permission from his grandmother to be with us when the cult-busters got to her in England and told her that she would never see him again unless she signed papers to have him made a ward of the state and sent the police out after him. It appears that they also told her not to even tell us that they were going to cook up a story about us having kidnapped him!

And the third one? Well, again, it was a case of someone who was just a couple weeks short of being 18. he was a ward of the state in Liverpool, who was living on his own. However, someone (officials, guardians... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there) was getting upset about him having anything to do with us, and so we encouraged him to take off into hiding for those few weeks. We had to look after him a bit more than Lakshmi, however, bcause he was mentally challenged, and would constantly poo his pants and wet himself. In short, he spent about a year with us, travelled to Australia, then to America (where he wandered off on his own one night in Las Vegas and gave us all a scare!) and then back to England. Sexually or physically assaulted? No way! But he may have missed a meal for some kind of an indiscretion.

Well, there you have it, the bigger picture. But how much do you wanna bet that there will be a response seeing even more evil than already existed in these people's minds after they have read this letter.

Of course, it has to get by Rick Ross the moderator before it will appear first, so you may never see it. Gee, maybe we should do that, where you have to get anything you write approved by me before you can send it! Ha!

Anyway, I hope things are going well for you over there in Kenya. I can't believe the news that the entire Internet is down over there. Hope it's fixed soon. I had a great trip back and am slowly getting over jet-lag. Give my love to the rest of the team in Kenya.

Dave

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Dave McKay
Now, about the 17yo guy... I can only think of three times in our history when we have had any dealings with anyone under 18 years of age. One was Lakshmi, in India, who also gets a mention on this site. The full story with Lakshmi was not only that her uncle was forcing her to have sex, ...

So we have to say that the Rick Ross set is taking the side of a violent, fundamentalist, sexually perverted family against a young girl (one week away from being 18) becoming a Christian.

Why get involved with the lives of minors? It must be borderline illegal, you should inform social services or just keep your nose out for that 1 week.

Quote

However, someone (officials, guardians... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there) was getting upset about him having anything to do with us, and so we encouraged him to take off into hiding for those few weeks.

You wonder why the authorities and people's carers are suspicious of you, when you encourage people to disappear, people who may need care?

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he was mentally challenged, and would constantly poo his pants and wet himself.

What a thing to disclose about someone! Shows how willing you are to denigrate and humiliate your followers. How would you like it if those close to you disclosed publically your physical problems and dysfunctions?

Quote

he may have missed a meal for some kind of an indiscretion.

Seems your group is very keen on chastising people.

Both my wife and I are ex-JCs. We have been out of the group for about 6 months now. I am now a member of a "main-stream" Christian church, but I was a member for five years and can say confidently that I've never seen any sexual misconduct. Reports about that guy having his pants taken off him in the night just sound so off the mark. If the JCs are one thing, then they're definetly not a sex-cult.

Now as for being coerced into donating a Kidney, that is also flimsy. I've donated because I wanted to. My wife chose not to donate and she hasn't gotten any flak for it. I don't recall anyone being coerced either.

Also, please people, can you stop trying to make them out to me like the Family? It's funny, but some of the Family's strong beliefs (eg. eternal salvation/security) are much more inline with main-stream fundementalist Protestantism.

I'm only saying this in an effort to help people distinguish reality from fiction. As I've said elswhere in this forum, I don't belive in a number of things that the JCs do or believe, which is why I'm not a member. I just haven't seen anything to indicate that they are physically dangerous.

Xenophone said:

Quote

I don't belive in a number of things that the JCs do or believe,

Please explain the "number of things" that you don't believe in that McKay and the JCs t"do or believe."

Dave wrote
quote]Can't remember if it is in this thread or another one on this site, but someone has been telling some story about a 17yo guy who stayed with us and woke up one morning with no underpants on;

Well, again, it was a case of someone who was just a couple weeks short of being 18. he was a ward of the state in Liverpool, who was living on his own. However, someone (officials, guardians... I'm not sure, as I wasn't there) was getting upset about him having anything to do with us, and so we encouraged him to take off into hiding for those few weeks. We had to look after him a bit more than Lakshmi, however, bcause he was mentally challenged, and would constantly poo his pants and wet himself. In short, he spent about a year with us, travelled to Australia, then to America (where he wandered off on his own one night in Las Vegas and gave us all a scare!) and then back to England. Sexually or physically assaulted? No way! But he may have missed a meal for some kind of an indiscretion.
[/quote][/color:afc401865d]


This is very interesting .
Perhaps you could check the weekly records submitted for that period in time or just ask the people who were there and who recruited the young man why liverpool writer makes the claims that he does.

If he was a ward of the state, were you not worried that what your group did was illegal?

How did you feel about this young man missing a meal for 'some kind of indiscretion' ? ...and what was it?

Did he return to his guardians after he left your group or how did you ensure that he had the support he needed?