Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: August 31, 2009 10:42PM
Dear Pimento,
Yes I'd say David is "worse" in his behaviour, although I'd guess with hindsight that the "seeds" of the problem were always there....I cannot comment on India, but I'm making a judgement here about David being "worse" from the extent to which he is prepared to fabricate lies, engage in smear tactics, and practise fraud that he financially benefits from, in comparison to the "good old days" of my own membership (when such practises were far more rudimentary and were less to be expected).
While I still believe in a God so real that one might literally live in faith upon Him, while "seeking first the Kingdom of God", that same God bears no relation to the life and times of one David McKay, .......it being an error of judgement on my part that I once associated the two at all.
Yes I'd say David is "worse" in his behaviour, although I'd guess with hindsight that the "seeds" of the problem were always there....I cannot comment on India, but I'm making a judgement here about David being "worse" from the extent to which he is prepared to fabricate lies, engage in smear tactics, and practise fraud that he financially benefits from, in comparison to the "good old days" of my own membership (when such practises were far more rudimentary and were less to be expected).
While I still believe in a God so real that one might literally live in faith upon Him, while "seeking first the Kingdom of God", that same God bears no relation to the life and times of one David McKay, .......it being an error of judgement on my part that I once associated the two at all.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
pimento
()
Date: September 01, 2009 01:47AM
Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Pimento,
Yes I'd say David is "worse" in his behaviour, although I'd guess with hindsight that the "seeds" of the problem were always there....I cannot comment on India, but I'm making a judgement here about David being "worse" from the extent to which he is prepared to fabricate lies, engage in smear tactics, and practise fraud that he financially benefits from, in comparison to the "good old days" of my own membership (when such practises were far more rudimentary and were less to be expected).
While I still believe in a God so real that one might literally live in faith upon Him, while "seeking first the Kingdom of God", that same God bears no relation to the life and times of one David McKay, .......it being an error of judgement on my part that I once associated the two at all.[/
I give up now. Wo, wo, wo, wo, I just saw that I nearly got banished but have no idea what sin caused that near miss!
Malcolm, I hear you and know what you mean, but he is the same man in the end. Tonyb might think like you that he changed, but he is the same man in the end.
He wroteway back in the ' good old days'. How loyal were you to him them?Quote
Honest to whom
I wanted to post this q on X-JC's. I tried to register, but they sent me a message, saying that I would get a second message when I could post and from that post on they ignored me. So I leave you with this!Quote
When a person is in a situation, where everything they once believed, is challenged to the point where their physical or spiritual existence feels threatened, their human instinct leans towards self-preservation. If they are surrounded by a group who challenge their former mind set relentlessly and are without recourse to any alternative support, they experience great psychological distress. In this situation it is estimated that it can take between 3-4 days before a psychological mind shift occurs and they essentially become brainwashed, losing their own identity and forming a bond through the Stockholm syndrome. Once the shift occurs, the victim no longer thinks about escape, but only pleasing and identifying with their abuser to avoid physical or spiritual death.
One of the telling symptoms is self delusion expressed through extreme loyalty.Quote
Unfortunately, many victims of Stockholm syndrome maintain their bonds to their captors for months, even years, after they have been set free.
C'mon you guys! How could he have been fine when you were there, if he wrote this then? Are you all Stockholming ?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 01, 2009 11:15PM
Dear Pimento,
I apologize, however I am slightly confused by your question, when you say,
C'mon you guys! How could he have been fine when you were there, if he wrote this then? Are you all Stockholming ?
by "he" do you mean "David McKay" and by "he wrote this"...do you mean that David quoted the passage (somewhere) that you have included in your last posting?
(Namely,
One of the telling symptoms is self delusion expressed through extreme loyalty.
The Rick Ross thread contains three "epic cult sagas", namely Chris Butler, Byron Katie and David McKay (...although Christopher Hansard might possibly also like to think himself "dangerous" enough to rate a mention). If you have not troubled to do so, I would recommend reading parts of the other two major threads....in shades of deja vu....what I personally find of most interest in them, is the SIMILARITY in the techniques employed by these fraudsters and in the commonality of the experiences of those who have suffered at the hands of these conniving shams.
David and Bryon and Chris will all "warn" you of the dangers of (other) cults, pleasantly invite you to look over their material and "think about it for yourself", tell you that they can help you to "reach the full potential" that "God" has for you....they are predators who are deliberately masking their intentions with glib assurances and with appeals to "higher concepts" with which to bait those they are seeking to ensnare....
If David has quoted the passage you nominate somewhere, it in no way "proves" that he is genuine in any sense of the word
(I'm reminded of Satan (mis)quoting scripture when tempting Christ...would you say then that the poor Devil, is just some poor devout soul, that has been simply misunderstood, down the ages?....after all lets face it, he obviously reads the Bible!)
....the use of such referencing (you may find Christine, David's daughter, claiming that she is familiar with Milgrams' famous experiment) to persuade those unfamiliar with him that David couldn't possibly be so blatantly hypocritical (as in fact he really is) as to quote such findings and then practice the very things he "apparently" condemns......the purpose of these references is to "psychologically" disarm those considering involvement and to discourage them from questioning his credibility.....
In relation to (another?) enquiry....How could David have once been "fine"? (I'm not sure who you are quoting here Pimento...but assuming you have such a quote)
The records show that David's many critics ultimately left, hence that would indicate to me that when they describe something as "fine",
that they are speaking relatively.
There once was a warm, friendly man called David McKay (...driven by his own growing sense of "destiny"...an ultimately psychologically cancerous end for him) and the fellowship I shared with many other members of the JesusChristians, remains a special memory for me. I was too immature to be able to look deeper into David, at the time I became involved....consequently I thus ended up spending three and a half years chiefly "selling" him....
....despite the "good times" (now I would doubt there to be a great many of them in the current JC operation), I would not recommend others repeat my experience.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2009 11:17PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.
I apologize, however I am slightly confused by your question, when you say,
C'mon you guys! How could he have been fine when you were there, if he wrote this then? Are you all Stockholming ?
by "he" do you mean "David McKay" and by "he wrote this"...do you mean that David quoted the passage (somewhere) that you have included in your last posting?
(Namely,
Quote
When a person is in a situation, where everything they once believed, is challenged to the point where their physical or spiritual existence feels threatened, their human instinct leans towards self-preservation. If they are surrounded by a group who challenge their former mind set relentlessly and are without recourse to any alternative support, they experience great psychological distress. In this situation it is estimated that it can take between 3-4 days before a psychological mind shift occurs and they essentially become brainwashed, losing their own identity and forming a bond through the Stockholm syndrome. Once the shift occurs, the victim no longer thinks about escape, but only pleasing and identifying with their abuser to avoid physical or spiritual death.
One of the telling symptoms is self delusion expressed through extreme loyalty.
Quote
Unfortunately, many victims of Stockholm syndrome maintain their bonds to their captors for months, even years, after they have been set free.
The Rick Ross thread contains three "epic cult sagas", namely Chris Butler, Byron Katie and David McKay (...although Christopher Hansard might possibly also like to think himself "dangerous" enough to rate a mention). If you have not troubled to do so, I would recommend reading parts of the other two major threads....in shades of deja vu....what I personally find of most interest in them, is the SIMILARITY in the techniques employed by these fraudsters and in the commonality of the experiences of those who have suffered at the hands of these conniving shams.
David and Bryon and Chris will all "warn" you of the dangers of (other) cults, pleasantly invite you to look over their material and "think about it for yourself", tell you that they can help you to "reach the full potential" that "God" has for you....they are predators who are deliberately masking their intentions with glib assurances and with appeals to "higher concepts" with which to bait those they are seeking to ensnare....
If David has quoted the passage you nominate somewhere, it in no way "proves" that he is genuine in any sense of the word
(I'm reminded of Satan (mis)quoting scripture when tempting Christ...would you say then that the poor Devil, is just some poor devout soul, that has been simply misunderstood, down the ages?....after all lets face it, he obviously reads the Bible!)
....the use of such referencing (you may find Christine, David's daughter, claiming that she is familiar with Milgrams' famous experiment) to persuade those unfamiliar with him that David couldn't possibly be so blatantly hypocritical (as in fact he really is) as to quote such findings and then practice the very things he "apparently" condemns......the purpose of these references is to "psychologically" disarm those considering involvement and to discourage them from questioning his credibility.....
In relation to (another?) enquiry....How could David have once been "fine"? (I'm not sure who you are quoting here Pimento...but assuming you have such a quote)
The records show that David's many critics ultimately left, hence that would indicate to me that when they describe something as "fine",
that they are speaking relatively.
There once was a warm, friendly man called David McKay (...driven by his own growing sense of "destiny"...an ultimately psychologically cancerous end for him) and the fellowship I shared with many other members of the JesusChristians, remains a special memory for me. I was too immature to be able to look deeper into David, at the time I became involved....consequently I thus ended up spending three and a half years chiefly "selling" him....
....despite the "good times" (now I would doubt there to be a great many of them in the current JC operation), I would not recommend others repeat my experience.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2009 11:17PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: September 02, 2009 07:18AM
This story came to my attention because of the amount of money this guy got in Israel for his kidney. Just as a reference point for our JC interests.
Donor says he got thousands for his kidney
Rosen's story is one of several that have come to light in recent weeks as part of a worldwide CNN investigation into what appears to be a widespread black market in human organs currently under scrutiny by authorities in the United States and Israel.
[www.cnn.com]
Donor says he got thousands for his kidney
Rosen's story is one of several that have come to light in recent weeks as part of a worldwide CNN investigation into what appears to be a widespread black market in human organs currently under scrutiny by authorities in the United States and Israel.
[www.cnn.com]
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: September 04, 2009 08:02PM
Dave McKay has made up a lie about Private Eyes. He maintains that Eyes is a Quaker man called David Lowe. He came to this false conclusion because of a chance meeting at a cult awareness meeting. His conclustion is utterly false, and his pursuit of this myth is criminal. David Lowe is a quiet, god-fearing Quaker, who is not prepared to enter the internet world to defend himself against Dave's claims. And Dave posts fresh material he has invented about him on a regular basis. Let's hope Dave will come to some realistic conclusion once he checks the data base of Private Investigators in Australia, as he has promised he will....!
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 05, 2009 10:15PM
Then again,
...the longer the "David Lowe" vilification continues, the worse David will ultimately appear (...even though on his own web-site...the desperate falsifications will be "airbrushed" out of history and then villainously denied that they were ever made)....
thus I'd personally prefer that David stay clear of any "realistic conclusions".....and after all Blackhat... he IS an Apostle of God..
...how could you even dare suggest that he be wrong? David Lowe is obviously just a CLANDESTINE private investigator (former M16 agent, don't you know!!)
...the longer the "David Lowe" vilification continues, the worse David will ultimately appear (...even though on his own web-site...the desperate falsifications will be "airbrushed" out of history and then villainously denied that they were ever made)....
thus I'd personally prefer that David stay clear of any "realistic conclusions".....and after all Blackhat... he IS an Apostle of God..
...how could you even dare suggest that he be wrong? David Lowe is obviously just a CLANDESTINE private investigator (former M16 agent, don't you know!!)
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 05, 2009 10:59PM
Thank you for the information about the Kidney "trading" Zeuzsor.
It would be interesting indeed to calculate how much David makes off each "disciple" he ensnares.
Assuming there to be AUD$20,000 in organ sales he could generate from a new inductee, taking into account the amount "forsaken" to the community (consisting of all monies, goods and chattels that an individual owns) which would have to be averaged out, but say for arguments sake some AUD$5,000....and taking into account the unpaid labour of those in servitude to him, selling his literature (an average membership lasting two to three years?)...even deducting the minimal "board and keep" that would say be paid for out of the sales that an individual earns retailing the JC literature....
....I'd have to say that David would be getting on average about AUD$55,000 per "disciple"
....that is AUD$30,000 in cash (kidneys and "forsaken" goods and property)
and (conservatively estimated!( a further AUD$30,000 in unpaid labour
(based on the Aust Federal minimal wage of $543.78 and a period of servitude of approximately three years)
It would be interesting indeed to calculate how much David makes off each "disciple" he ensnares.
Assuming there to be AUD$20,000 in organ sales he could generate from a new inductee, taking into account the amount "forsaken" to the community (consisting of all monies, goods and chattels that an individual owns) which would have to be averaged out, but say for arguments sake some AUD$5,000....and taking into account the unpaid labour of those in servitude to him, selling his literature (an average membership lasting two to three years?)...even deducting the minimal "board and keep" that would say be paid for out of the sales that an individual earns retailing the JC literature....
....I'd have to say that David would be getting on average about AUD$55,000 per "disciple"
....that is AUD$30,000 in cash (kidneys and "forsaken" goods and property)
and (conservatively estimated!( a further AUD$30,000 in unpaid labour
(based on the Aust Federal minimal wage of $543.78 and a period of servitude of approximately three years)
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 06, 2009 12:45AM
Honest to Whom?
A little truth without a big truth can be a lie. For example, it is true that the Bible says, “There is no God,” but the context tells a big truth that is very different. (Psalm 14:1)
"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.....Psalm 14:1 and the context here is so OBVIOUS that only the dim-witted would accede David's point...manifest manipulation of a text is NOT a "little truth" being divorced from a larger one...it is simply a "big lie".
The devil teaches people to be honest, but he does not teach people to be honest to God. He only wants people to be honest to him and to his followers. But the devil and his followers are not honest to God. You cannot be honest to God and honest to the devil at the same time.
A house divided amongst itself will fall, Christ taught and we know that the "devil's house" will in fact, ultimately fall....hence it IS divided amonst itself and the devil doe NOT teach people to be "honest" (but just to the wrong master)...the devil only teaches dishonesty (and hence MUST still be teaching McKay!)
Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. You will have to cheat (or "despise') one if you want to be honest to the other. (Luke 16:13) The devil is the “prince of this world” (John 14:30), and this world is at war with God. (]ames 4:4) The religious and political leaders of the world work together to turn people away from God. (Mark 8:15) They do this by teaching that service to the princes of this world is service to God. The government is their 'god". (John 19:12,15) But the governments of man are opposed to Christ (I Corinthians 27-8) and we are opposed to them. (Ephesians 6:12) NOTE: Our war is not one of violence (II Corinthians 10:4) and when possible, we should try to co-operate with governments. (Romans 12:18)
Utter manipulation here on McKays part (courtesy of what he purloined from David Berg). The intent here is to create a "false dilemma" where an individual will be led to believe that if they don't join the JesusChristians (and purportedly work for "God") remaining external to the JesusChristians they would only ever be working for the "Devil")
The princes of this world think that they own the world. And the religious leaders of the world teach that we will die if we do not serve the rulers of this world. (Sweeping and many ways meaningless generalizations....intended to alienate potentials from alternatives to JC membership) Jesus teaches that we do not owe the systems of man anything, because we are children of a greater King. (Matthew 17:24-26) (How true and we also don't owe David McKay membership of his cult, as we are free under Christ) When we work for God and he feeds us, people who serve the devil will say that God does not feed us, because everthing he uses to feed us comes from the same system that fights him. (...and when you work for McKay and he feeds you, people who serve God will say that "God" does not feed you!!) They will try to make us say that we cannot live without money or the system that makes it. But that is not true. We may use both money and the system now, but we belong to a kingdom that will destroy both it and them one day. We can live without money, but the system cannot live without God! (I Corinthians 8:4)
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered unto Idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one. 1 Corinthians 8:4 As Apostate on the jcs.xjcs site has also noted, the quoted verse is irrelevant to the point David is vainly trying to hammer home.
From time to time we destroy money to show people that it is only paper and that our faith is not in money. (The burning money incidents were all intended to "buy publicity" for McKay....they simply "purchase" the attention Mckay craves..)
Sometimes when God provides for you, the devil will try to make you feel guilty for saying that God provided it. The devil will say that his system produced it , or it came from someone who works for him, or people did not know that they were helping God when they gave to you. Do not be tricked into feeling guilty about taking something that God has given to you. (I Corinthians 7:21). (...but DO feel guilty about taking something God has given you to then employ "selling" David McKay earthly Kingdom...seeking "Gods' Kingdom" is NOT the commercial promotion of McKay) Do not forget that everything belongs to God, and if God chooses to “steal” something from the system that stole from him in the first place, then he has that right. ("God" has that right, but David McKay hiding behind the name of God, does not!) Just obey God and help others, and know that anything is legal for God. (I Corinthians 10:23-27)
Sometimes God will want you to say nothing when you know something. (Proverbs 29:11) lt is foolish to tell our enemies everything that we do. (Luke8:10) If we want to be true to God, we must sometimes deceive his enemies. (II Corinthians 6:8) (By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report, as deceivers and yet true 2 Corinthians 6:8 UTTER PROSTITUTION of the scripture here...Paul is commenting that he was falsely accused in the course of his witness, NOT that he engaged in falsehood.... outright deception!)
Sometimes God will tell you to do things that are illegal. lf you do not obey God, you are breaking God's law, and his law is higher than any human law. (Acts 5:29) (The deceit of "ends justifying the means" .. and of course, "Gods law" is not, and never was, Davids' version of that "law")
Even civil lawyers know this. (In Australia, it's called one law being "repugnant" to another...and a hierarchy of legal seniority arbitrates such disputes) If, for example, a council by-law denies a constitutional right, then the council by-law, and God's law is the highest law. (Matthew 12:1-8, 22:36-40) Just be very sure in your own heart that it is God (and not McKay pretending to be "God") who is telling you to do something that is illegal and not your own selfish desires. (Galatians 5:13- 14) (...and if David McKay tells to do something illegal, you can be sure in your own heart that it is NOT God who is telling you to do something that is illegal but rather Davids' own selfish desires)
A little truth without a big truth can be a lie. For example, it is true that the Bible says, “There is no God,” but the context tells a big truth that is very different. (Psalm 14:1)
"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.....Psalm 14:1 and the context here is so OBVIOUS that only the dim-witted would accede David's point...manifest manipulation of a text is NOT a "little truth" being divorced from a larger one...it is simply a "big lie".
The devil teaches people to be honest, but he does not teach people to be honest to God. He only wants people to be honest to him and to his followers. But the devil and his followers are not honest to God. You cannot be honest to God and honest to the devil at the same time.
A house divided amongst itself will fall, Christ taught and we know that the "devil's house" will in fact, ultimately fall....hence it IS divided amonst itself and the devil doe NOT teach people to be "honest" (but just to the wrong master)...the devil only teaches dishonesty (and hence MUST still be teaching McKay!)
Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. You will have to cheat (or "despise') one if you want to be honest to the other. (Luke 16:13) The devil is the “prince of this world” (John 14:30), and this world is at war with God. (]ames 4:4) The religious and political leaders of the world work together to turn people away from God. (Mark 8:15) They do this by teaching that service to the princes of this world is service to God. The government is their 'god". (John 19:12,15) But the governments of man are opposed to Christ (I Corinthians 27-8) and we are opposed to them. (Ephesians 6:12) NOTE: Our war is not one of violence (II Corinthians 10:4) and when possible, we should try to co-operate with governments. (Romans 12:18)
Utter manipulation here on McKays part (courtesy of what he purloined from David Berg). The intent here is to create a "false dilemma" where an individual will be led to believe that if they don't join the JesusChristians (and purportedly work for "God") remaining external to the JesusChristians they would only ever be working for the "Devil")
The princes of this world think that they own the world. And the religious leaders of the world teach that we will die if we do not serve the rulers of this world. (Sweeping and many ways meaningless generalizations....intended to alienate potentials from alternatives to JC membership) Jesus teaches that we do not owe the systems of man anything, because we are children of a greater King. (Matthew 17:24-26) (How true and we also don't owe David McKay membership of his cult, as we are free under Christ) When we work for God and he feeds us, people who serve the devil will say that God does not feed us, because everthing he uses to feed us comes from the same system that fights him. (...and when you work for McKay and he feeds you, people who serve God will say that "God" does not feed you!!) They will try to make us say that we cannot live without money or the system that makes it. But that is not true. We may use both money and the system now, but we belong to a kingdom that will destroy both it and them one day. We can live without money, but the system cannot live without God! (I Corinthians 8:4)
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered unto Idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one. 1 Corinthians 8:4 As Apostate on the jcs.xjcs site has also noted, the quoted verse is irrelevant to the point David is vainly trying to hammer home.
From time to time we destroy money to show people that it is only paper and that our faith is not in money. (The burning money incidents were all intended to "buy publicity" for McKay....they simply "purchase" the attention Mckay craves..)
Sometimes when God provides for you, the devil will try to make you feel guilty for saying that God provided it. The devil will say that his system produced it , or it came from someone who works for him, or people did not know that they were helping God when they gave to you. Do not be tricked into feeling guilty about taking something that God has given to you. (I Corinthians 7:21). (...but DO feel guilty about taking something God has given you to then employ "selling" David McKay earthly Kingdom...seeking "Gods' Kingdom" is NOT the commercial promotion of McKay) Do not forget that everything belongs to God, and if God chooses to “steal” something from the system that stole from him in the first place, then he has that right. ("God" has that right, but David McKay hiding behind the name of God, does not!) Just obey God and help others, and know that anything is legal for God. (I Corinthians 10:23-27)
Sometimes God will want you to say nothing when you know something. (Proverbs 29:11) lt is foolish to tell our enemies everything that we do. (Luke8:10) If we want to be true to God, we must sometimes deceive his enemies. (II Corinthians 6:8) (By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report, as deceivers and yet true 2 Corinthians 6:8 UTTER PROSTITUTION of the scripture here...Paul is commenting that he was falsely accused in the course of his witness, NOT that he engaged in falsehood.... outright deception!)
Sometimes God will tell you to do things that are illegal. lf you do not obey God, you are breaking God's law, and his law is higher than any human law. (Acts 5:29) (The deceit of "ends justifying the means" .. and of course, "Gods law" is not, and never was, Davids' version of that "law")
Even civil lawyers know this. (In Australia, it's called one law being "repugnant" to another...and a hierarchy of legal seniority arbitrates such disputes) If, for example, a council by-law denies a constitutional right, then the council by-law, and God's law is the highest law. (Matthew 12:1-8, 22:36-40) Just be very sure in your own heart that it is God (and not McKay pretending to be "God") who is telling you to do something that is illegal and not your own selfish desires. (Galatians 5:13- 14) (...and if David McKay tells to do something illegal, you can be sure in your own heart that it is NOT God who is telling you to do something that is illegal but rather Davids' own selfish desires)
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: September 06, 2009 01:24AM
(A somewhat annotated version of) Honest to Whom?(written by David McKay for distribution internally, and otherwise falsely denied to exist....!)
.......(see above)........
Would the document suffice to commence any sort of action (criminal or civil) against McKay?
A criminal conviction of McKay would require a "guilty mind" (mens rea) and a "guilty act" (actus reus)...say tax avoidance, laying fraudulent claims to welfare payments, fraud, blackmail and extortion, larceny by deceit, contempt of court and perverting the course of justice...... to name a few for example.
The statements here (e.g. Sometimes God will tell you to do things that are illegal.) would certainly be persuasive in court of the "mens rea" behind any act in question, and would In my opinion, assist the case for the prosecution. The transparent prevarication that Our war is not one of violence (II Corinthians 10:4) and when possible, we should try to co-operate with governments. (Romans 12:18) is of course intended to circumvent any legal liability. I doubt that it would succeed in court, provided that the substantiation of illegal activity (financial transfers, account names and other substantive documentation) was sufficient.
David would of course, endeavour to avoid the law by disassociating himself personally with any wrong doing that was ever provable in court ("OMG...I had no idea Robin and Christine had all that money and land in their names or that Jeremy had actually whipped that young Kenyan...you know it was certainly not what I had really ever meant him to do") and it would then become prudent to establish that the "relationship" between David and his deluded cronies fell into one of the established category of cases...(Teacher - Pupil, Employer - employee) meaning that a "history" would become essential for a conviction to be obtained under the "vicarious liability" (joint guilt) that would ensue in a conspiracy of criminal complicity.
.......(see above)........
Would the document suffice to commence any sort of action (criminal or civil) against McKay?
A criminal conviction of McKay would require a "guilty mind" (mens rea) and a "guilty act" (actus reus)...say tax avoidance, laying fraudulent claims to welfare payments, fraud, blackmail and extortion, larceny by deceit, contempt of court and perverting the course of justice...... to name a few for example.
The statements here (e.g. Sometimes God will tell you to do things that are illegal.) would certainly be persuasive in court of the "mens rea" behind any act in question, and would In my opinion, assist the case for the prosecution. The transparent prevarication that Our war is not one of violence (II Corinthians 10:4) and when possible, we should try to co-operate with governments. (Romans 12:18) is of course intended to circumvent any legal liability. I doubt that it would succeed in court, provided that the substantiation of illegal activity (financial transfers, account names and other substantive documentation) was sufficient.
David would of course, endeavour to avoid the law by disassociating himself personally with any wrong doing that was ever provable in court ("OMG...I had no idea Robin and Christine had all that money and land in their names or that Jeremy had actually whipped that young Kenyan...you know it was certainly not what I had really ever meant him to do") and it would then become prudent to establish that the "relationship" between David and his deluded cronies fell into one of the established category of cases...(Teacher - Pupil, Employer - employee) meaning that a "history" would become essential for a conviction to be obtained under the "vicarious liability" (joint guilt) that would ensue in a conspiracy of criminal complicity.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: September 06, 2009 04:57AM
Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Thank you for the information about the Kidney "trading" Zeuzsor.
It would be interesting indeed to calculate how much David makes off each "disciple" he ensnares.
Assuming there to be AUD$20,000 in organ sales he could generate from a new inductee, taking into account the amount "forsaken" to the community (consisting of all monies, goods and chattels that an individual owns) which would have to be averaged out, but say for arguments sake some AUD$5,000....and taking into account the unpaid labour of those in servitude to him, selling his literature (an average membership lasting two to three years?)...even deducting the minimal "board and keep" that would say be paid for out of the sales that an individual earns retailing the JC literature....
....I'd have to say that David would be getting on average about AUD$55,000 per "disciple"
....that is AUD$30,000 in cash (kidneys and "forsaken" goods and property)
and (conservatively estimated!( a further AUD$30,000 in unpaid labour
(based on the Aust Federal minimal wage of $543.78 and a period of servitude of approximately three years)
You're welcome, Mal.
It is crazy that people are now spending more time discussing Mr. Kyoo, DL, and I then the Jesus Christians.
It just baffles my mind, how that these folks are more interested in talking about Kyoo and DL and myself, than they are about STOPPING THE CULT FROM HURTING MORE PEOPLE.
They are mostly like school children over there at the-forum-that-shall remain nameless. The other forum is hard to get into, but is so poorly moderated. Is this all some kind of social-networking crap to them?
It's all turned into something of a farce (IMO) for now. The attention has come off McKay to people feeling sorry for him and his family.
David and his brown-nosing lackey Glenn just keep repeating that they were threatened, and people believe it. These two are doing the same with the Johnsons. They keep repeating that they were trying to kill Rinehard. It's so true, about the Adolf Hitler lie thing.
Blackhat is only making things worse IMO; if you don't want certain a person associated with the JCs, Blackhat, then don't create a thread starting with his name.
It worries me that the next Joe Johnson is probably around the next corner. But at least there is more material around now about the cult than ever before.
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