Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 14, 2009 10:55PM

In the United States, there is a whole range of online services that for around $40 will give you a full background report on anyone you choose. So literally anyone can obtain the information anyway from another source. In the United States, public records are very open.

Again: my material was culled from a variety of public-domain sources and databases.

Anyone in the world can conduct research, hire a PI, whatever.

There are whole Wikipedia articles with details on people. The ex-COG sites even have have names you can click on to obtain their ex-member details.

Unfortunately, I made an error of judgement, and will drop all the personal address details from my files, as you I don't want them to be misused by stalkers, etc.

Goodbye.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Offended ()
Date: August 15, 2009 02:25AM

Thank you Brian, that is the specific information I have been enraged about. I see numerous inaccuracies and some false accusations in your dossier also, but that's between you and those people to sort out. For instance, you don't even have the names or number of Dave's siblings correct, and 1 event you list a date for is about 25 years off, but unfortunately I do not intend to provide you any information to add to your dossier because I personally don't like the contents of your dossier at all, but I will stay off your back if you remove the contact information of people who do not wish to be contacted.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: August 15, 2009 02:51AM

Offended:

It is against the rules of this board to post contact information publicly here.

If any contact information is posted at a thread within the message board let me know and it will be deleted.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: yasmin ()
Date: August 15, 2009 02:52AM

Zeusor, I am so glad you have changed your mind on this.

Think it was back in 2007 that some of us first asked you to consider the harm that could be done by releasing peoples' personal information?

( By the way, Offended if you check back on the thread around maybe sept 2007, you will find that rrmoderator removed posts made by Zeusor containing members and ex members personal information.)

In general , its my view that invasion of peoples privacy is cruel and often counterproductive.

For those who have left a group, finding your own way is hard enough without dealing with people publicly broadcasting private information.

And for outside family members, as Offended has pointed out, it can be a cause of great hurt.

For those still in a group, privacy is often hard to find, and in many groups, even private communications with outside family members have to be witnessed by the group leader or others for auditing.

Since many group members in various groups don't seem to have much right to privacy, I think that respecting what they have left is crucial.

.And as you mention, there is also the issue of the possibility of stalkers.Even if this never happens, just knowing the information is out there can be uncomfortable.

And unfortunately invasion of privacy is not an uncommon problem.I have heard that some ex members of the Children of God also have had their privacy invaded.

My family and loved ones have also in the past been hurt by unnecessary invasions of privacy; I am grateful that this forum allows for anonymity.

(This is one reason why it is often safest not to give personal information to people you have only met over the internet.)

And am very grateful that Zeusor is thinking differently about this. ( Personally I have respect for someone willing to admit an error in judgement and make a change.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2009 03:01AM by yasmin.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 15, 2009 03:29AM

The information in my files was legally obtained from a number of sources, public records, online databases and basic internet searches.

All the photos in my files, for instance, are ones that people themselves posted on the net, and in fact Kevin once posted a picture of his entire family.

Some of the stuff on ex-members is fairly tame. It simply says when they joined, any significant events and when they left. Nothing really personal there. Kevin's stuff was mainly about him winning some awards.

I am willing to amend any inaccurate information and delete any personal contact details which were included by mistake.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 15, 2009 04:26AM

Certain information in my files was already out in public domain, and was contained in newspaper articles that have been on the Jesus Christians Visual Archive for two years.

In documenting the cult's history, it is important to document the various events and stunts that were conducted by the group, as well as some of the negative consequences of the events, which included certain members being arrested.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: August 15, 2009 11:28AM

I strongly agree with Yasmin AND I know that Zeuszor has the maturity not to release information to those who do not need to view it.

Again, I must disagree with Offended that any information be "removed".....(corrections of the data that you claim was inaccurate will now be researched and made)...however just as clearly that information should not be carelessly released at all...

We do all of course share concerns over "protecting the innocent"

...regrettably (perhaps unbelievably for you)...your mother is NOT the only person in the world affected by the fraud that McKay perpetuates....

There are those who could potentially be duped into membership of the JesusChristians who must also be taken into account...

...hence, the "innocent" need to be protected from the deceit with which McKay would seek to entrap them (prostituted scripture, manipulative language, progressively poisoned relations with anyone external to the cult such as immediate family)

Your "concerns" Offended reflect your bias that David McKay is simply "misunderstood" and that no-one who spends time with David McKay really "suffers" in any fashion

I am not aware that you have ever acknowledged that David McKay is an utterly unscrupulous individual who preys on the idealism of those far younger than him, seeking to entrap them in years of unpaid servitude, "selling" him...

I have yet to hear of your anguish over the trauma many have suffered through their associations with McKay down through the years....

If you wish to be taken seriously, I would welcome hearing such....


I also note, that your mother had the goodness to write to David (while I was ensnared in the cult) and berate him for what he was doing...David deliberately read this letter aloud to me, and others in the group (to demonstate to us the "sacrifices" he was making, having to "dump" his "systemite" mother!)

As a consequence of the your mothers' efforts, I too have a "personal relationship" with your mother (she "communicated" with me)....please STAY OUT of the relationship I share with your mother....Its' a private matter that I don't want you to interfere with.....I will share that letter (page 187 of this thread I believe)...whenever I choose to....that is a matter between your mother and I....please DO NOT interfere with our relationshipl!!

AND, (as you repeatedly request), I will personally try to use my "influence" to prevent the release of any information inimical to the rights of privacy of your mother or any other party



Most importantly, I see that David himself has told us what he "thinks" about this "secret dossier"....(though his toadie, Glenn as recently as last night the 15th Aug 2009)

Would the media outlets even want this information.one has to wonder how many other people have seen this information. I think brian needs to cough up all the places he sent this information too.so they can be contacted and advised to shred the info. With all that info one could only imagine the identity fraud that could occur.speaking out is one thing but is anyone apart from mcrob going to act?[jcs.xjcs.org]

THUS, we now know that (through the transparent manipulation attempted here)

David is desperately interested in knowing who has this information and wants to "neutralize" it in any way that he can. Naturally he needs to first know who has it. David is also very concerned that it would affect his ability to draw attention to himself through the media.

....and CONSEQUENTLY, we (discreetly) persevere with "secret dossiers", in whatever shape or fashion, that might take.


(For those unfamiliar with the background, here

Poor widdle Glen, is an individual independant of the JC's who has NEVER met anyone of Davids' critics or gone to the trouble to verify their accounts....but Glenn, lacking "love and understanding" in his life....and needing to feel "special" somehow, hence on account of having met David once, who smiled through his fangs and made Glenn feel some "warmth and acceptance.....Glenn now relays information to David about the activities of those who are critical of him and passes on what David wants to say in other forums in order to poison the debate therein...)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2009 11:29AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 15, 2009 12:49PM

Thank you for defending me, and for expressing your respect and gratitude, Mal.

Blah blah blah slander blah blah blah you're full of hate hate blah blah blah you're sick blah blah blah stalker blah blah blah

I've been withstanding a barrage of such drivel over this for over three years now.

Don't you know that I've heard it all before? They'll have to try harder than that. It does not hurt my feelings at all.

Rob and David and Kevin and the rest go to such pains to try and discredit me...but, in my mind, that would mean that I am often "on target", so to speak, IMO.

The issue of my call, and the other party who OK'd and collaborated with me on my call, occurred in December of '07 and has been discussed before.

The family requested no further contact and this is the case. Nobody, to my knowledge, has called or otherwise contacted his mother since. Nobody.

Look, again: I am not the "bad guy" here.

DAVID MCKAY IS THE BAD GUY HERE.

There's a term for people like David McKay, and the term is narcissistic predator, or psychopath.

Sorry if that's nasty to hear, Rob, but it's still the truth, whether you like it or not.

Your brother is one of the sickest and most destructive predators of youth that I've ever studied, IMO second only to one Feroze Golwalla in terms of his small following, sheer cruelty and conscience-free behavior.

Golwalla was the leader of a cult called Baruch Ha Shem, aka Parsee Ministry Team. Read of them here:

[www.culteducation.com]

In other words, if I had to make a kind of list of evil, predatory leaders of small, obscure cults consisting of impressionable young kids, Golwalla would be number one, and your brother David would be number two on such a list.

Both IMO are monsters. MONSTERS.

Fortunately, BHS has been disbanded, and Golwalla has been stopped, is under virtual house arrest with no followers left; your brother is on his way to being stopped, and the JCs are on thier way out.

Don't believe me? Don't think David's sick, evil, narcissistic and dangerous? Don't think the American public ought to be made aware of his presence among us? Then check this out and ask yourself, is this the behavior of a wholesome Christian group and its leader?

[www.youtube.com]

The blame for all of this, the focus of this discussion, should be squarely on David McKay, the predator of children and self-styled "Divine Authority."

I do respect you and your family Rob, but again must remind you that this matter is much larger than the immediate McKay family.

Society's best interests are served by being altered to the presence of, and protected from, your evil brother and his cult.

David's own efforts have come back to haunt him. So don't blame me.

You could have done something to alert the public years ago, and for whatever reason didn't.

Your brother has hurt a lot of people and seems to have absolutely no conscience about it whatsoever.

We've got to protect the public at large from predatory personalities like David, and you yourself have done nothing, absolutely nothing, to protect it (as far as I know).

At least I did not sit idly by and let somebody else worry about it. At least I wasn't content to sit on the sidelines and let somebody else do all the work.

I'd rather be faulted for going too far and being accused of an having and excess of zeal, than for doing nothing.

I saw something that needed to be done, and I agreed to help do it. From where I sit, it looks like Rob and his nephew saw something that needed to be done, and stood by while others did something about it.

And now they want to make it out like Brian is the bad guy, the loose cannon, the trouble maker, make me into some kind of scapegoat. That just infuriates me.

The JCs are a destructive cult and your David McKay is a sick cult leader. Don't you realize that, Rob?

He's a monster, he's a madman, he's a wolf in among the flock, and I'll never quit saying so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2009 12:54PM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: yasmin ()
Date: August 15, 2009 01:30PM

Zeuszor;
please don't change your mind again..

Treating people as "things" who are of no value except in so far as they can be used to achieve an end, and with the basic belief that any suffering they incur doesn't matter, is not uncommon thinking in cults.


If it is true that your dossiers include peoples' private bank accounts, medications they take,sexual information and pictures and information on their children,as well as private addresses, then one is left to question whether this information could ever be considered helpful to anyone.

(And having never seen the dossiers, I have no idea what they do contain)

If it is true however, and you are comfortable both with humiliating ex members, and with humiliating current members, then one wonders if you are not missing the whole point, which is ( in mho) to help people.

i realize that you have previously mentioned coming from a group where I think you and others have said that both hot seat type interrogations, and the collecting of detailed information on others ( mainly evangelicals) were considered religious duties?

For many of us sorting through stuff is very difficult, and changing cult behaviors even after we leave the group can be hard.

Am not meaning to be intrusive here; have just wondered for a while if that is why you sometimes bounce between different behaviors.
Wishing you all the best, Yasmin

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: August 15, 2009 06:49PM

Dear Zeuszor,

I thank you for the ongoing efforts you have made in relation to McKay and I look forward to your future contributions, here and elsewhere....

....I would as Yasmin, has suggested though, avoid "inflaming" issues if at all possible,

I sadly agree with you in relation to David, ("madman", "wolf" and so on...),


However I will STILL personally set to respect what Offended might request of me, that is;

I would not release information that might (in HIS eyes, not mine) potentially "harass" his immediate family

I haven't lived his life...I don't know what he faces......hence as far as I can, I will just "take on board" his perspective...

(...sometimes as I've just stated my "perspective" will differ from his, however I will incorporate his views wherever I can)


I would strongly recommend keeping any McKay "dossiers" well out of reach of the general public.

There needs to be a COMPELLING reason directly relevant to exposing McKay, to even look into the things.

I hope that you can see fit to agree with me on this.

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