Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: cultmalleus ()
Date: March 13, 2009 08:27PM

Ah yes, the NEP. Have a look at the link, it's very ironic. At least back then we were happy for a 10 cent per tract dony average and it was much less long winded to get to the point. What's the going rate now?

("Spare a few dollars for the printing cost?" "Urg, here you go, I'll pay you to stop bothering me" Book goes in bin. Phew, now my dony average is looking better and I'll avoid being a shamer)

Neither was there any attempt to draw 666 on Muhammad Yunus' head like Dave does with his latest offering. Now, a lot more trees are cut down before anyone gets to the point, but the effort involved would tax a saint.

I didn't worry about the virus thing and it hasn't affected me yet.

You must remember, Malcolm, that because Lisa is not in the group Dave respects her more, just like he has more respect for me and you now that we are men, forging our own paths, and not wimpishly in obedience to him. He will be more deferential to her while he roasts Rob and others for the same things. I always found it frustrating in the group that he would listen and respect outsiders in preference to group members, but now I understand why. How can you respect anyone who kowtows to you? Dave sees them and treats them like wimpy boys, and they confirm this by not standing up to him. Of course, the end result of standing up to him is to leave.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: March 14, 2009 12:07AM

Dear Cultmalleous,

Yes...absolutely!...I think that your take on David's (out of character!) courteous behaviour towards sympathetic "outsiders" is entirely accurate. It is symptomatic of the fact that subconsiously he genuinely understands that is a nothing other than a bullying fraud, and hence he comes in time to despise those who are content to remain nothing other than his own "followers", whereas he secretly respects people who stand up to him (without of course, being able to articulate that....the whole house of cards would collapse were he to do so....!)

We (those of us who have left in disgust at him) are actually all that now remains out of the many hopes that were once held for the "Christians".....(nostalgically?)...I would still, sentimentally, see the camaraderie with BUGA-UP during the years in Sydney and the concurrent India outpost as the high-point of the community down the years....

While I would like to think that David is still able to rationally view the world around him, (despite the fact that he is clearly also criminally predatory towards it)....his behaviour of recent years, does tend to make me think a little nervously that he would ultimately seriously consider proceeding with a suicide pact "stunt" (as "come-uppance" to an undeserving world) he ages and realizes that he's never going to hit the "big time"(major cult status i.e. hundreds and hundreds of disciples throughout the world)....when you consider that the "devotees" that really don't mean that much to him anyway.....

After all, (so the (il)logic would go, as David increasingly became aware of his own impending mortality) ...we are all called to "die" for Christ and if through our deaths we can somehow call attention to the "message of the gospel", and "save the lost"...we wouldn't be killing one another, would be nothing other than "dying to ourselves" and daily "sacrificing our lives to Christ"...just all at once!!

He may reassure the troops "narrow is the way" and "few are those who find it" with circular logic that their failure to attract interest is evidence of how "pure" they are....but I doubt that David would personally believe it....He would have no-one that he genuinely respects to confide in now, in the entire world (having thrown out anyone mature enough to be capable of speaking honestly to him) and thus he has effectively isolated himself (a conversation with Cherry would be akin to a dialogue with your own "sock-puppet"....)

...David's now stooping to demonizing Mohammad Yuunus and ridiculing the impact of the Grameen Bank, thinking that that will win him some converts?!?

...a mind worryingly disconnected from any vague references to objective reality there, in my opinion....

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: March 15, 2009 08:53AM

From George Orwell's 1984 (Part 3, Chapter 3) O'Brien speaking, emphases mine:

The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?'
'We are the priests of power,' he said. 'God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan: "Freedom is Slavery". Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone - free - the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he ~is~ the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body - but, above all, over the mind: Power over matter - external reality, as you would call it - is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute.'

The Virgin Army are thus kept in a state of perpetual war; as Orwell wrote: "What was more important was that sexual privation induced hysteria, which was desirable because it could be transformed into war fever and leader worship."

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: March 25, 2009 04:52PM

I'd like your thoughts, Jack, given that you have studied literature and writing at tertiary level, what you think of his writing skills. It's too much drudgery to read the whole lot of it, but if you could just analyse his skills (ignoring the Hubbardistic content) in a completely neutral way, I would be very interested.

I'll have a read and give you my 'considered' thoughts.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: March 29, 2009 01:43AM

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Mark Scheiderer ()
Date: April 01, 2009 07:50AM


Are you still at Meadowhaven?

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: April 01, 2009 10:29AM

Dear Zeusor,

...and if you are still at Meadowhaven....would they know how one might track down the details of the episode of psychiatric treatment David McKay was alleged to have had prior to his immigration to Australia....I'd love to know... as, were it not to have been declared on his immigration application(pre-existing medical condition), it might well potentially disqualify him!

Thank you for the link, Zeusor!

Again what strikes one, yet again ever so forcefully, is how transparently duplicitous David McKay is revealed to be, by anyone who has access to any nature of "history" of his activities...

The demented fetish for deceitful "sheep" skins, both secular (e.g BUGA-UP, third world redevelopment, refugees in Australia, the peace movement, organ donation, freeganism) and religious (e.g the churches in Medowie NSW, Catholicism, the Quakers) which are then discarded just as readily as they are assumed are ABSOLUTELY evidence of the utter dishonesty of the man, and all those in subservience to him....(..."working" for something (e.g David Mckay) is equivalent to "worshipping" it... according to Davids' own writing...(earlier stolen from one David Berg!)......)

....while they might be able to pull the wool over anyones eyes, who has no historical perspective on them, the sweeping array of shallow commitments that the JesusChristians have made over the years, in pretence of their own "sincerity", well and truly exposes them as the wolves that they actually are...

It would actually become quite disorientating to anyone who sanely tried to "justify" to themselves the different and ever changing deceptions that David orchestrates....(...ummm..noble "Filtiarn" (lord of the wolves!), I mean, these sheep skins of ours...are we Californian Variegated Mutants this month?....or American Black Belly's?....or just plain old Scotch Mules again??

Here I quote from a recent (timely) newsletter from the Institute for Creation Research...

Spiritual Ugliness
March 30, 2009

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matthew 23:27)

"Beauty is only skin deep" seems to be the modern secular equivalent of this "woe" in Matthew 23. The corresponding Old Testament statement is probably this: "As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion" (Proverbs 11:22). This principle has lasted for millennia simply because it is easily observed in all cultures. Our Lord's application to the scribes and Pharisees was particularly pointed: "Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity" (Matthew 23:28). God is not interested in the "pretty outside" but in what's on the inside. "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart" (1 Samuel 16:7).

Hypocrisy and iniquity are the two attributes of "uncleanness" identified by Christ. The core of hypocrisy is the intent to deceive others, either with actions or words. And the core of the biblical teaching about deception is the false teacher--those who look like and talk like God's people, "but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matthew 7:15). Iniquity is the biblical term for "without law." Such a person has no desire to submit to authority, and is both willing to do evil and is dangerous to be around. Cain murdered Abel, the Bible insists, "because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous" (1 John 3:12).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2009 10:32AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: April 05, 2009 02:01PM

...and of can't help know, kind of....well... wonder just how individually "happy" each of the members of the merry old JesusChristians really are, in a situation where it is constantly drilled into them to "die" to themselves in order to better live for David...(Whoops!...of course I meant to write "God" there, didn't I ! mistake!)

It's a peculiar "happiness" where any wayward thought (e.g. financial or political independence, not distributing Davids' own self-important writing, refusing to feel obliged to acknowledge David as one's spiritual leader within the JC's) that is in anyway potentially contrary to service to David (..."God" that is!)...must be deliberately "cast out" as the promptings of the "devil".....but after all we do so want to avoid any anxiety, don't we!!

(...the anxiety of public humiliation in "grievance meetings" and the dreaded consequences of David's further ire (isolation, constant denigration, the requirement to "fast" until you discover why you are "out of the spirit", the threat of ejection from the only physical livelyhood and support that you have, imagined abandonment of the one "true faith" and consignment to the "way of the devil"...!)

...someone less well disposed towards the JesusChristians that I, might even view such practices, in a far more sinister light....

(repression (psychiatry) the classical defense mechanism that protects you from impulses or ideas that would cause anxiety by preventing them from becoming conscious)....

....naturally the JesusChristians are publicly telling themselves the sacrifices that they are making are all for the greater good...

....and yet...."Are you happy doing what you're doing?" one might well ask them all...

...naturally they all wear the "masks" they need in order to survive in the little "system" that they have become entrapped in, spending all those years handing out yet another slip of paper, David authorized, to some disgruntled passerby....coming home, again and again, to very ordinary circumstances every night....where they can (illegally by the teaching of scripture 1 Timothy 4:1-3) never "marry" , (David knowing how the support of a spouse can "foment rebellion" against him)....and even those of course, brave enough to privately speak to David of the need for some "new direction" in their lives,...learn to couch it in terms that might hopefully, somehow be "acceptable" to him... but, oh(!) the analogies that might occur to one!


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 02:05PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: April 07, 2009 10:48PM

...but PLEASE (dread the very idea!)...

don't let it be thought that I cannot understand some of the "attractions"

that prompt some souls to be drawn to dysfunctional Dave...

...there's the glamour of being an "outlaw"...

....the visceral thrill of "living on the edge"...

....the respect that you sense from those who don't have the guts to "defy the world"

.....the ability to retreat into traditional roles of dependancy,

where you will gain a type of "respect" ...for as much as you comply....

If you're prepared to turn a blind eye to David's criminality, bat not an eyelid when he denies the message of Christ (theres' no need to be "meek,merciful, pure in heart or to hunger and thirst after righteousness") and prostitutes the great Commission (Go ye into all nations...teaching them to give all that have into the hands of David Mckay and to obey whatsoever David has commanded you)....

then yes....I guess you could say that there is a certain "lifestyle"...

I can see how one might be "smitten" by the "cause" and the intensity of the demands upon you....

...perhaps the psychology of the "attraction" that the JesusChristians have,

can be best understood by analogy.....


The List
Posted by: muppet ()
Date: April 10, 2009 11:02PM

The List of concerns about David J McKay compiled by posters to this site ... updated

1. David teaches and utilises deception (see past discussions about thefts and welfare fraud)

2. David teaches his group to IGNORE the teachings of Jesus in favour of his own interpretations (see Killers for Jesus thread where Dave justifies killing people when circumstances dictate)

3. David teaches his followers to run roughshod over the top of the feelings and concerns of family members by teaching them that they no longer have to have any contact with family members unless they accept JC doctrines of the group having final say on who comes in to there house.

4. David uses emotional blackmail on members families, ex members, and his own children by stating that they will not be permitted to see loved ones unless they comply with his dictates.

5. David teaches his members that it is OK to whip people for sins they have committed against his group (see discussion about the Kenyan volunteer they whipped on their "Quaker" community)

6. David teaches his members that there is no force involved in sexual relations between a child and an adult paedophile (see discussions on his forum under the "sex thread")

7. David teaches that third world women are intrinsically bad because their lust and wantoness for western materialism motivated them to seduce their husbands away from Jesus

8. David teaches that he is an "annointed apostle" without which all would be led astray.

9. David has reversed his original "Churchianity VS Christianity" teachings by teaching the above "annointed apostle" doctrine as it negates previous teachings about each member having a direct connection to God without the need of hiearchial structures.

10. David directed his community to "break" one of his children, while ignoring the emotional crisis the son was experiencing.

11. David has created an atmosphere of peer pressure for males to receive vascetomies.

12. David teaches that biblical passages related to "living sacrifices" and "He who has two should give to those who have none" relate to body parts.

13. David undermines the goals of families by covertly meeting with children, legally minors, to sow seeds of doubt in their minds about their parents motivations. The end result is that the family is ripped asunder, resulting in them experiencing loss and grief.

14. David takes people to court for money if they criticise him

15. David teaches his members that begging for donations on the street in order to meet a strict distribution quota is not working for money. In reality his has become the like thief master in Oliver Twist teachings the kids how to rob passerbys.

16. David falsely claims to have "forsaken all", while having NEVER relinquished his position of authority within the JC's or having ever worked as an equal in a community. He also happily lives in government flat provided by Australian welfare while members live in vans.

17. David teaches that manipulation is good, and proves the point by pretending to be a concerned mother writing to cult busting groups about her son who had been sucked into his group (see discussion about "Anita Foster").

18. David teaches that ex members have fallen away from God, because they disagree with his teachings.

Well that should do for starters. The list really seems to go on and on and on. But, I think there a few there, and I am only one member. I am sure the others have more.

Excellent list Apostate

19. David teaches that Sincerity is the same as Faith.

20. David teaches others to manipulate situations for the benefit of the group. He claims that manipulation is just good management.

21. David teaches that the end justiifies the means.

22. David promotes double standards,insisting that recruits forsake all private property. The group has just purchased land they are building on in Kenya, in his daughter's name. (ic website)

23. David does not admit to new recruits that most of his teachings are based on Berg's.

24. David promotes double standards by holding other people accountable for their actions and manipulating situations where he might be held accountable himself.

25 David teaches that it is permissible to have harmless grieving relatives arrested to get them out of the way, rather than lose a potential recruit.

26. David teaches that having a conscience is bad.

27. David teaches that the end of the world is coming soon. This orobablty coincides with Family teaching.

28. David, unlike inspiritional leaders, has a very bad temper.

29. David teaches recruits to tell lies.

30. David vets communication.

31. David demands frequent and intrusive reports.

32. David expels/ isolates recruits from group when they are 'out of the spirit' / weak leaving them fearful for their salvation, having been convinced there is none outside the group.

33. David gets the best food for himself

34. David insists that ex members do not take literature out of the group when they leave

35. David teaches others that he has the "gift of spiritual discernment", even writing in books boastfully that his young disciples are "amazed" by it.

36. If David cannot get a false accusation to stick he accuses the person of thinking about the act "subconsciously", telling his followers to trust his "gift of discernment" in the matter.

37. Members of David's family, including his mother have voiced serious concerns about his activities. David interprets this concern as insane HATRED and discounts their concerns, insisting that they are really just opposed to the teachings of Jesus.

Quoting Dave here
Brian said that Alice said that my "grandmother" had predicted that I would be mightily used by God. Perhaps Brian misunderstood, but it is just as likely that Alice said "grandmother" when she meant "mother". (She IS well into her 80s, remember!) See, Alice herself (KEVIN'S grandmother, not mine) is the one who made extravagant predictions about me being used by God in some great way, and she made them repeatedly over several decades, putting me up on a pedestal to taunt my older brother, Ron, until one day many years ago, when I discovered the teachings of Jesus. Then, like Kevin, she turned against me in a way that was so over the top that it leaves more doubts about her sanity than it does about whether I really am the monster that she says I am.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2009 11:05PM by muppet.

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