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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2008 05:35AM by zeuszor.

Intriguing question. There are a lot of variables to consider. You'd have to take into account times, places, circumstances, the age and maturity level of the recruit, the role religion played in their upbringing and early lives, so many things.

Mal, the Internet connection at my house is down right now and I had to go the library to read my email and check in here and all today.

I only have thirty minutes, so I'll have to type out a proper reply and get back with you on this, post my answer over the weekend.

But off the top of my head, roughly: relatively not too long, a matter of months, weeks in some cases. But again, it just depends on so much.

Barbara Hoyt and Sherry Ann Cooper fled Barker Ranch in terror when they found out that their "friends" were responsible for the Tate/ LaBianca murders, even as the rest of the Family laughed and joked about the same murders.

Why did Hoyt and Cooper flee, while so many stayed? What was it about them that couldn't participate in Helter Skelter?

Yet Squeaky Fromme (in prison for trying to kill Gerald Ford) is as loyal to Manson today as she was in 1970.

How and why did Sqeaky stay under Charlie's spell to the point of trying to assassinate the President for him, but the spell over Hoyt broke, and today she is a nurse and lives like anybody else in Washington state?

How and why did Christine and Cherry choose to (yes, I say they chose to) stay with David, while the rest of the McKay Family didn't?

Only God knows.

But I'll keep thinking about it and will write more later as time allows.

JESUS CHRISTIANS NEWSLETTER #104, SEPTEMBER 2008

This month a team went to Nairobi to distribute books and to visit Giddy's
relatives. The guys found a new spot near a very busy market where they were
swarmed by people who wanted to get their hands on the meaningful books. Two
of our main school book distributors in Nairobi took a break this month because
of the school holidays. They already have orders pending for September at
various schools in the capital city and other province.

An Australian couple with their thirteen year old son stayed at our centre for
a week towards the end of the month, along with several pastors from their
associated churches in Africa, while they held a pastors convention nearby.
They mostly preached on the need for accountability and the appropriate use of
funds, as well as raising issues such as equality of the sexes and overcoming
superstitions. After their stay with us they returned to Uganda where they
have been ministering for the last seven months.

Kim also arrived back from Australia where she visited relatives and did some
business. Kim's and Fran's relatives were happy to have Kim stay with them for
days at a time. Fran's relatives in particular appreciated the chance to get
to know Kim more and are very happy to have her as part of their extended
family. All the relatives sent lots of "goodies" back to Kenya with Kim, which
were greatly appreciated here.

This month we hosted volunteers from various places, including a group of
Japanese volunteers and one from Argentina. We also had some previous Kenyan
volunteers return to work with us during the holidays. Our volunteer centre
continues to appeal to international volunteers who are looking for cheap/free
opportunities to help the Kenyan community. Unfortunately many volunteer
organizations charge exhorbitant amounts of money for the privilege to work for
free, and volunteers sometimes leave disillusioned by the greed and corruption
they see within such organizations. Fortunately, every volunteer who has
worked with us has given glowing reports about their times with us, sometimes
posting such reports online. One volunteer wrote on her blog:

"These people are awesome, and we truly felt part of a community while we lived
there. We shared meals, stories, and games together, and respected each
other's quiet times. When we weren't working with the kids, we put ourselves
to good use bettering the community center... I miss them, I miss the
friendships we made, I miss the kids, I miss being of service, and more than
anything, I miss the feeling of pure bliss I experienced in finding my true
calling. Save for the six-day silent meditation retreat I did several months
after [my husband] and I were married, I've never felt more alive and free and
in touch with my true self than when I spent those eight great days in western
Kenya. Someday I will go back."

An orphanage from a nearby town brought all 30 children to our centre to go on
an excursion to the local forest and play football (soccer) with us afterwards.
It was a lot of fun having the kids around and we all enjoyed our time together.
Several of the children also put on a show for us where they presented some
traditional songs as well as some original ones composed by themselves.

The Lions Club held a free eye clinic this month, offering people examinations
and treatment for serious eye problems, as well as glasses at subsidised rates.
We were able to pass the word around and took several people from our local
area to the eye camp. One 17 year old boy, who is going blind, was offered a
free eye operation that would restore his vision. Unfortunately, his mother
refused for him to get treatment, most likely because of a superstitious belief
about operations. Despite attempts to persuade her by her neighbours, she was
unwilling to give the boy permission to receive the free eye operation that
normally would cost hundreds of dollars, far above the reach of poor people
such as them. Some of the other people we took to the eye camp received
treatment and were offered further examinations for free at a famous eye
hospital in Western Kenya.

Our "Peace Kenya" T-shirt project has continued on, despite attempts to slow
down our production and shift towards restarting the reading program in the
schools this coming month. Boda Boda (bicycle taxi) drivers are particularly
keen on them and we have been inspired to supply them with the shirts as they
advertise the message throughout the main roads of towns and villages. We also
continue to receive large orders from people from other areas and provinces.

Fran and Giddy worked together to record a new reggae song called "When Love Is
Our Philosophy" which is now available on our music page: www.music.
jesuschristians.com

In Australia, Ross and Barry have been hitting towns in outback New South Wales
and Queensland that have not been visited by members of our community for many
years. They have been very well received.

Cherry has written a new article, which appears on our web site. It's called
"Obeying Prophecy":

[cust.idl.net.au]

Issues continue to be discussed on our forum. There have been heated
discussions this month on such subjects as abortion and homosexuality:

[welikejesus.com]

The Jeremy Kyle Show on ourselves was rebroadcast in the U.K. twice during the
last month, bringing in scores of new responses from viewers who were able to
see through the chicanery of the producers. Read some of their comments here:

[welikejesus.com]

Another one of our members is getting very close to being able to donate a
kidney, and there has been intense media interest in it. Hopefully we will
have more on that next month.

Dear Zeusor,

My understanding is that following the split in 1996, David simply fabricated a story about the "rebellions" AT THAT TIME, (not necessarily now though) it might be reasonable to presume that Christine and Robin (her husband) were not party to the full facts of the matter. David routinely dissembles information to better manipulate people. Hence while Cherry is completely guilty of disinheriting her OWN children, Christine may not have been aware of what actually took place....that does not of course, excuse her or Robin from choosing not to verify facts for themselves independently of what they hear from David, or of being wilfully involved in the dishonesty surrounding any of the other matters....

It is interesting to read what has been SELECTED to appear in the JC newsletter.....Fran and Kim's "happy" relatives....(grateful to be just spared a brief opportunity to see either of them again?).... "joyful" relatives, "blessedly content" with the decisions of Fran and Kim to give every unpaid hour of their lives to bringing more souls into David Mckay's servitude....that would be an interesting little account to verify wouldn't it.....and they have "relatives" (uncles, aunts, cousins but clearly not parents) in Aust.?

It would be a pleasurable exercise to compare what they might actually say in private, with the account given here!! (Would you have any leads here? Japan's not too far!)

I can see what's happening with the Jeremy Kyle program.....David spends hours pouring over it to then produce one clever "come-uppance" after another (to which Grahame, Liesel or yourself are unable to reply) to "explain" in hindsight how he was "hard done by" for popular broadcast on the JC site....the "brat" pysychology that drives him (as you noted in the video) goads the man to "prove" himself "right" with one "corrective" fabrication after another.....

He hates being "talked about"......and even more, he hates NOT being "talked about" so he is feeding his ego by reliving his last television appearance, time and time again, the way that it "should have been"......talk about SICK!

As regard your question to me about how long it would take for somebody to fall fully and irrevocably under DM's influence...impossible to predict or to put to some kind of time table, as it depends so much on the susceptibility of the individual, their personality, temperament, so many variables. There is no one "profile" of a potential cult member; anybody could fall under the influence and bend to the will of a charismatic leader under the right conditions, anybody. It might take days, weeks, months, maybe hours for some to snap.

Basically, in answer to your question: this is impossible to predict, there are too many variables IMO.

Dear Zeusor,

Well yes there are a lot of variables, affecting the "time frame", however the process would be fairly predictable....it is actually the "Cognitive Dissidence" that Christine wrote of (quoting her Father, who uses the term to desperately persuade anyone who'll listen, that he is in someway "knowledgeable"...)

Time and time again, Christ specifically instructed people NOT to publicize the healings he engaged in (David McKay of course doing exactly the opposite, seeking to get HIS name "in lights" at every opportunity and specifically encouraging any of the kidney recepients to tell the media all about the JesusChristians) and not to let your right hand to as much as know what your let is doing.....seeking to sell your own "spirituality" is the antithesis of what Christ stood for (and stock in trade for David McKay....

How does someone like Ash become persuaded to live a life of service to the Devil.....(or at least, one particularly sad and pathetic little Devil)...What's the "progression" of lies.....well I'd see them as something like this....

Jesus' Teachings are important! The most important thing in the world. Without obediance to them, one is "doomed"... there is nothing more crucial!

They are difficult to follow, involving the renunciation of world goods and attachments. You must be prepared to make sacrifices.

The JesusChristians have "renounced" world goods and attachments. The JesusChristians literally follow what Christ said

Only the JesusChristians have truly "renounced" the world and literally follow Christ. (Members of any other churches through out the world have not...)

David McKay has made "more" sacrifices than anyone else in renouncing the world and following Christ.

Hence, David has naturally enough become the authority in ultimately deciding what "Christ" said, where there is any dispute.

Critics of David (or of what he says) or the JesusChristians, do so, because they haven't renounced the world or follow Christ. Critics of David are "out of the spirit".

Winning people to obediance to Christ is the most important task facing the faithful few in this world.

Only those who see and meet the JesusChristians have actually been introduced to the "gospel".

Promotion of membership into the JesusChristians (demonstrated in actual practise by obediance to David or his appointed leaders) IS the "gospel" of Christ.

The "gospel" of Christ is worth any personal sacrifice, no matter how great.

We can win people to the gospel by demonstrate the love of Jesus (through the "love" of the JesusChristians).

Kidney donations bring publicity to the JesusChristians and demonstrate the "love" of the JesusChristians

Publicity to the JesusChristians, brings the "gospel" of Christ to the attention of the world.

By visibly donating a kidney as a JesusChristian, and buying press through this process, a JesusChristian is "saving" the world.

Any lie or dishonesty, required to donate a Kidney is part of the battle with the "Devil" who is trying to prevent the light of the "gospel" from shining throughout the world.




....the JesusChristians live for "money".....their money though is not shells or beads or coins...it is kudos from Daivd and fame throughout the little world they inhabit.


Ash is probably routinely overlooked by David....however electing to participate in a kidney donation (in flagrant breach of the manner in which Christ commanded such "healings" be performed).....would have made him a "lot of money"......

(....and David of course literally made a lot of money, pocketing the "cost reimbursements" that were made to Ash....)

thus from the next Donors (Grace or Joes') perspective, they'll shortly become "rich" , in keeping with the "perspective" that they have now been taught to hold.....




Why, the ENTIRE UNIVERSE (that is the 20 or so people who comprise that "universe" and the small number of sympathetic souls looking in, from just outside the universe) will love them and they will, through the donation briefly become the very CENTER of the UNIVERSE (the object of immediate attention for the JesusChristians) and they will (ever so briefly) be actually FETED by the LORD of the UNIVERSE himself (a scrawny, elderly man with the mien of a constipated weasel)....

......My God, What a deal!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2008 02:59PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

"Under the spreading chestnut tree

I sold you and you sold me

There lie they, and here lie we

Under the spreading chestnut tree."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 12:22PM by zeuszor.

I gaze up at the enormous face. More than six years it has taken me to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark mustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-snented tears trickle down the sides of my nose. But it is all right, everything is all right, the struggle is finished. I have won the victory over myself. I love Big Brother.

Dear Zeusor,

Thank you for the poetic turn of words there!

You know, inadvertently, David, despite himself, continues to reveal more and more of the sickness that is eating away at him....I think I'm beginning to understand his "perspective".....

David imagines to himself that he somehow "cleaned up" the Children of God (who started off well, but were "led astray")....and that he alone has remained "true" to the revolution while David Berg ultimately "turned"...

(This of course, gives some indication to how brazenly David can lie to himself, knowing as we do that only Cherry's protests prevented David from remaining with the Children of God, and thereby prostituting his wife and children.....(but....all in a "good cause" you understand!!!).....)

David has stolen his eschatology (end time theology)....working "by faith" dogmas (to the very scriptures he quotes)...and the communal workings of the JC's from the models he encountered in the Children of God, .....and PHARISAICALLY now sees himself as a "purified" version of the Children of God...

(Hence there has never been any public condemnation of the Children of God, and contact is loosely maintained with the hope of "pilfering" membership from them...)

David Mckay, though, would seem, far from "cleaning up" the Children of God, to have actually considerably "dirtied them up"...

(Here I must ask Matilda however)....the sexual abuse and deliberate disruption of families and individual personal development aside, the COG did NOT have "literature quotas" (ensuing a steady income for their leader, while claiming to "work for God"), did NOT whip themselves or vounteers, did NOT hock their own organs to buy themselves publicity, did NOT engage in vexatious legal actions to intimidate opponents or the families of members and so on....

We are of course already aware that David's "instructions" that no one who is serious about their Christian duties in the JC's would contemplate marriage, directly contradict scipture (1 Timothy 4: 1-3...)...David of course simply hypocritically (he remains married himself!!) veering to the other extreme here to better isolate those in his clutches from situations (the privacy of a husband and wife relationship) where anyone might conceivably be able to "conspire" against him ......


Hence we should really understand the Jesus Christians.....as a cults' CULT!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2008 02:43AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST


(Hence there has never been any public condemnation of the Children of God, and contact is loosely maintained with the hope of "pilfering" membership from them...)

David Mckay, though, would seem, far from "cleaning up" the Children of God, to have actually considerably "dirtied them up"...

(Here I must ask Matilda however)....the sexual abuse and deliberate disruption of families and individual personal development aside, the COG did NOT have "literature quotas" (ensuing a steady income for their leader, while claiming to "work for God"), did NOT whip themselves or vounteers, did NOT hock their own organs to buy themselves publicity, did NOT engage in vexatious legal actions to intimidate opponents or the families of members and so on....

]

The Children of God most certainly DID have litnessing quotas and Berg initiated this policy with his letter entitled 'Shiners and Shamers'.
Those who surpassed their quotas were rewarded and given a treat. Those who failed to meet their quotas were shamed and chastised, sometimes forgoing their meals and staying out of the colony/ on the streets until the quota was reached. For some this meant sleeping rough for a few days.

Beatings DID also take place in the COG, sometimes with RODS. There are numerous accounts of these.

The Children of God and the Jesus Christians are from the same root. McKay left a COG colony and set up his own colony.
He admits on NDM that he ' took advantage of a COG ruling' and became a shepherd, recruiting his own children and family.
Dave was recognised as a COG shepherd with his oiwn flock and his recruits wold also have been recognised at that time as COG members. However I think it is pointless to discuss which group is worse than the other. The root and the fruit of both are rotten.
It is not true that the group has become corrupted recently. It was always abusive and corrupt



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2008 08:21PM by matilda.