Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
matilda
()
Date: November 02, 2006 11:05AM
Quote
GladitzoverQuoteQuote
snuggles
What on earth is going on here.
Let me get this straight. This Dave Mcay has three kids who have left the Jesus Christians? -Who are now adults with their own lives and maybe even families of their own.
Yes, he has 3 children who are out of the group. They want nothing to do with him but would like contact with their mother. Last I heard their mother is not alowed to speak to them or her grandchildren. DJ fears that they will "cause division" and Cherry might leave him.
Cherry, by the way, has crippling rheumatoid arthritis but DJ subjected her to the recent whippings in California. He said it was her decision but whenever that is said, take it with a grain of salt. He will use anything and anyone to get publicity. Having his crippled wife get whipped really pushes him to new heights in my opinion.
Fox News plan to air their film of the trial on 6th November. I think its on for 10pm local time.
No doubt the young boy who is fresh in and who was also subjected to a whipping was most likely persuaded to believe that it was his own decision as well. Unimaginable and unnecessary turmoil.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: November 03, 2006 02:11AM
QuoteQuote
cultmalleus
A lot of us still have "flashbacks" to our time in the group; god it takes a long time to deprogram. It's hard because most of us were and still are very idealistic and this was exploited by Dave for his own ends, with enough stuff that actually was idealistic mixed in to keep us in the group, all the while sucking us deeper and deeper into his vortex. Most of us also lacked a positive father role model in our lives, and Dave appeared to provide this for us.
This is so true. I think most people join thinking that they will spend their lives reaching out to and helping people. I know I did. There was disappointment when I discovered we would just be book distributors for Dave but I was assured that it was most important to "get the message out." The message of course was just DJ's rantings and had little to do with love or truth.
You may enter the group with idealistic dreams but you soon are turned into a suspicious, calloused hard hearted drone. You are not allowed to minister to people on the street because people wanting to talk are probably just "Time wasters" not worthy of precious minutes that could be used to get more books out! Bring the money in!!! Sell, sell, sell.Quote
I was really sad to see Rols and Sue and Daniel rejoin, one would have thought Dave had extracted his pound of flesh and more from them. Unfortunately, once you have been in the group so, so long, only doing one thing, (distributing), it must be very difficult to find any other way to live.
What can I say? It's heartbreaking. I really thought poor Danny might get a chance to experience life and childhood.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: November 03, 2006 02:32AM
The group talks a lot about self fulfilling prophecy. Usually, in the context that parents who try to stop their child joining the group, because they fear losing touch with them, cause a self fulfilling prophecy because their resistance causes the group to run and hide.
The truth of the matter is that the group usually sets the whole self fulfilling prophecy into motion long before the parents even know about the new recruit's wishes to get to know the group. The new recruit will be told very early on to keep quiet about the group. They are instructed that they are not ready to deal with the problems that will certainly come if they do tell family and friends about their interest. They are told that their family will most likely be used as tools for the Devil and try to stop them from serving God. If the new recruit disagrees and says that their parent will likely understand or wont react badly, the leaders will urge more strongly. Sometimes rebuking the recruit for their lack of humiltiy or their inability to take advise. So the potential recruit has to wade through all the groups nonsense on their own without being able to counsel with other people. By this time the parents and friends would likely have noticed changes in the person and will have beocme suspicious about their secretive behaviour. Naturally.
Any concern on the parents part will be used by the group to prove their theory right. The parents are evilly trying to stop them from serving God. The new recruit must be more secretive. By the time the recruit joins, the parents are totally freaked out, not knowing what is going on. The prophecy comes to life. Everyone goes into panic mode and the group has to run and hide. Very cleverly done right?!
The scenario varies but the result is usually the same.
The truth of the matter is that the group usually sets the whole self fulfilling prophecy into motion long before the parents even know about the new recruit's wishes to get to know the group. The new recruit will be told very early on to keep quiet about the group. They are instructed that they are not ready to deal with the problems that will certainly come if they do tell family and friends about their interest. They are told that their family will most likely be used as tools for the Devil and try to stop them from serving God. If the new recruit disagrees and says that their parent will likely understand or wont react badly, the leaders will urge more strongly. Sometimes rebuking the recruit for their lack of humiltiy or their inability to take advise. So the potential recruit has to wade through all the groups nonsense on their own without being able to counsel with other people. By this time the parents and friends would likely have noticed changes in the person and will have beocme suspicious about their secretive behaviour. Naturally.
Any concern on the parents part will be used by the group to prove their theory right. The parents are evilly trying to stop them from serving God. The new recruit must be more secretive. By the time the recruit joins, the parents are totally freaked out, not knowing what is going on. The prophecy comes to life. Everyone goes into panic mode and the group has to run and hide. Very cleverly done right?!
The scenario varies but the result is usually the same.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: November 03, 2006 02:58AM
QuoteQuote
apostateQuote
snugglesQuote
the fact that Berg beat his new recruits with rods.
This is interesting. I did not know that. Dave really is just a "wannabe".
I read a book written by Berg's daughter called "The Children of God". At times I thought I was reading about DJ. The similarities are amazing. Without, thank God, getting into the sexual promiscuity, DJ seems to have really modeled himself on Berg.
I always thought the Voices in the Wilderness, or whatever it was called was his idea. I am pretty sure he told us it was. At least, he didn't mention it was a copied idea. Well, apparently the Family did the exact same things years before with similar results.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: November 03, 2006 10:13AM
Gladitzover, Apostate, Cultmalleus, freeofDM, Matilda, Jack Oskar Larm, Snuggles,
Thank you for sharing information and experiences here. It is a very liberating thread because of you and what you have shared. It is very clear now to everyone that the JC's are, on the whole, very altruistic, idealistic and basically nice people who were taken advantage of by Dave and had no idea what you were really letting yourself in for. Had you known what really goes on in that group, you probably would not have joined in the first place.
Dave knows that too. He knows he has not got a snowballs chance in hell of recruiting people who have some advance knowledge of what he is really like. And if new recruits are given enough time alone or are allowed normal contact with friends/ outsiders after the trial week, they rarely return. So the teaching/ initiation for these 'babes' is tailored to facilitate a low defection rate. Gladitzover described it well.
Members are kept on their toes and on their guard constantly. The peer pressure in itself is a very powerful exploitation tool which is comounded by the social isolation of the group. Even though most of the day is specnt in shopping malls and on city streets, as Gladitzover points out, there is no real interaction with the 'timebandits' because there is a quota to be filled. The possibility of missing a meal ensures momentum. The interpretation of dreams according to 'group think' stems the role of the unconscious mind in performing a reality check. Doubts and questions arise commonly in dreams, but DM attempts to control your waking hours and your sleeping hours too.
Well done survivorsthe more information that is available the better!
Thank you for sharing information and experiences here. It is a very liberating thread because of you and what you have shared. It is very clear now to everyone that the JC's are, on the whole, very altruistic, idealistic and basically nice people who were taken advantage of by Dave and had no idea what you were really letting yourself in for. Had you known what really goes on in that group, you probably would not have joined in the first place.
Dave knows that too. He knows he has not got a snowballs chance in hell of recruiting people who have some advance knowledge of what he is really like. And if new recruits are given enough time alone or are allowed normal contact with friends/ outsiders after the trial week, they rarely return. So the teaching/ initiation for these 'babes' is tailored to facilitate a low defection rate. Gladitzover described it well.
Members are kept on their toes and on their guard constantly. The peer pressure in itself is a very powerful exploitation tool which is comounded by the social isolation of the group. Even though most of the day is specnt in shopping malls and on city streets, as Gladitzover points out, there is no real interaction with the 'timebandits' because there is a quota to be filled. The possibility of missing a meal ensures momentum. The interpretation of dreams according to 'group think' stems the role of the unconscious mind in performing a reality check. Doubts and questions arise commonly in dreams, but DM attempts to control your waking hours and your sleeping hours too.
Well done survivorsthe more information that is available the better!
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
yasmin
()
Date: November 03, 2006 12:25PM
Cultmalleus, what a great and compassionate post.I agree it is loving relationships and healing of intergenerational issues that is most important in life.Snuggles; you Muppet (and I) have all, amongst many others, chosen to be anonymous.Perhaps we should respect the right of Dave's children to make that same choice.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
matilda
()
Date: November 04, 2006 04:42AM
Extract from Independent article available at [www.findarticles.com]
'
Cult holding boy offers to swap him for access
Independent, The (London), Jul 17, 2000 by Paul Lashmar
THE LEADER of a religious cult that is believed to have abducted a teenager said yesterday he would appeal against a decision to make the boy a ward of court.
David Mackay, an Australian who leads the Jesus Christians cult, said he was willing to return Bobby Kelly, of Essex, in exchange for continued access to the 16-year-old. But he also said he did not know the whereabouts of the boy.
Last week the High Court made Bobby a ward of court to his grandmother Ruth Kelly, with whom he lives, after he abruptly left home to join the fundamentalist Christian cult just hours after meeting its members. The court order makes Bobby's grandmother his legal guardian.
But Mr Mackay argued that a 16-year-old was old enough to make his own decisions and he was prepared to challenge the order in court next week. He said: "The thing that concerns us is that such a court order would never have been taken out if someone didn't think we were evil people. Before that we had the total support of his grandmother."
Extract from [theword.com.au]
Two men have recently come down from Sydney, and are holding a vigil outside the Kenyan High Commission (in the QBE building, 33-35 Ainslie Ave.) They arrived on Thursday the 25th of August and plan to stay on to bring attention to a trial scheduled for the 2nd of September. This is their message.
A Plea to the Media (and to the Australian Government.)
A number of Australians have recently been charged with smuggling or
possessing drugs in foreign countries. The evidence in at least one case
is suspect, and the penalties (even if they are guilty) have been extreme.
Nevertheless, the Australian Government, although notoriously unhelpful in
such situations, has been coaxed into providing defence lawyers, making
public statements at the highest levels (in the latest cases, just hours
after the arrests were made), and even making some representations to
foreign governments on behalf of its citizens.
In contrast, an Australian missionary couple with a ten-year-old son, will
be facing trial in Kenya next week (September 2nd) on charges of
kidnapping (maximum penalty: seven years in prison) which are known to be
totally false by the Australian Government, the Kenyan Government, the
police prosecutor, the magistrate, the media in Kenya, and the general
public; and yet the Australian Government has formally stated that it will
do nothing more than "monitor" the situation.
'
Cult holding boy offers to swap him for access
Independent, The (London), Jul 17, 2000 by Paul Lashmar
THE LEADER of a religious cult that is believed to have abducted a teenager said yesterday he would appeal against a decision to make the boy a ward of court.
David Mackay, an Australian who leads the Jesus Christians cult, said he was willing to return Bobby Kelly, of Essex, in exchange for continued access to the 16-year-old. But he also said he did not know the whereabouts of the boy.
Last week the High Court made Bobby a ward of court to his grandmother Ruth Kelly, with whom he lives, after he abruptly left home to join the fundamentalist Christian cult just hours after meeting its members. The court order makes Bobby's grandmother his legal guardian.
But Mr Mackay argued that a 16-year-old was old enough to make his own decisions and he was prepared to challenge the order in court next week. He said: "The thing that concerns us is that such a court order would never have been taken out if someone didn't think we were evil people. Before that we had the total support of his grandmother."
Extract from [theword.com.au]
Two men have recently come down from Sydney, and are holding a vigil outside the Kenyan High Commission (in the QBE building, 33-35 Ainslie Ave.) They arrived on Thursday the 25th of August and plan to stay on to bring attention to a trial scheduled for the 2nd of September. This is their message.
A Plea to the Media (and to the Australian Government.)
A number of Australians have recently been charged with smuggling or
possessing drugs in foreign countries. The evidence in at least one case
is suspect, and the penalties (even if they are guilty) have been extreme.
Nevertheless, the Australian Government, although notoriously unhelpful in
such situations, has been coaxed into providing defence lawyers, making
public statements at the highest levels (in the latest cases, just hours
after the arrests were made), and even making some representations to
foreign governments on behalf of its citizens.
In contrast, an Australian missionary couple with a ten-year-old son, will
be facing trial in Kenya next week (September 2nd) on charges of
kidnapping (maximum penalty: seven years in prison) which are known to be
totally false by the Australian Government, the Kenyan Government, the
police prosecutor, the magistrate, the media in Kenya, and the general
public; and yet the Australian Government has formally stated that it will
do nothing more than "monitor" the situation.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Dave McKay
()
Date: November 04, 2006 06:05AM
Nice research, Matilda! I've never seen that article. Must have been buried somewhere in the middle of the paper. And so it should be, considering that so much (at least of what you have 'extracted') is transparently false. I mean, why would I say, "We don't have him, but if you'll give us access, we'll hand him over"? The reporter has clearly made up his own quotes to create such an illusion.
Six years later, I can only guess what was said, if, indeed, I ever spoke to that reporter at all. I just know what the facts were. *I* did not have the boy (because I was in Australia at the time), and I did not KNOW where he was in England, and (for obvious reasons) did not WANT to know.
However, the biggest error in the story is not the misquotes attributed to me, but the claim that the court made Bobby's grandmother his legal guardian, whereas what it actually did was to take guardianship AWAY FROM his grandmother. She had signed papers giving consent to Bobby going with us on an outreach to Germany... papers which she could only sign because she WAS his legal guardian before the UK counterpart of Rick Ross came along (cult-buster Graham Baldwin) and told her that she needed to accuse us of kidnapping him (and not let on to Bobby or us, either one, that it was what she was planning to do or even that she wanted him to come home) and then secretly sign papers giving the courts the right to lock him up when they caught up with him.
Bobby's grandmother apologised to him later, but it was too late; the damage was done and the family had been successfully split up by Graham Baldwin, who as a 'cult expert' convinced the court that we were dangerous and that Bobby had, indeed, been kidnapped. Bobby was forced to stay with foster parents appointed by the court, until he turned 18.
The extract which Matilda posted omitted a couple of lines:
[McKay] said: "The thing that concerns us is that such a court order would never have been taken out if someone didn't think we were evil people. Before that we had the total support of his grandmother."
Mr Mackay founded the Jesus Christians in 1981. The cult, based in Australia, lives by strict interpretation of the Bible.
Six years later, I can only guess what was said, if, indeed, I ever spoke to that reporter at all. I just know what the facts were. *I* did not have the boy (because I was in Australia at the time), and I did not KNOW where he was in England, and (for obvious reasons) did not WANT to know.
However, the biggest error in the story is not the misquotes attributed to me, but the claim that the court made Bobby's grandmother his legal guardian, whereas what it actually did was to take guardianship AWAY FROM his grandmother. She had signed papers giving consent to Bobby going with us on an outreach to Germany... papers which she could only sign because she WAS his legal guardian before the UK counterpart of Rick Ross came along (cult-buster Graham Baldwin) and told her that she needed to accuse us of kidnapping him (and not let on to Bobby or us, either one, that it was what she was planning to do or even that she wanted him to come home) and then secretly sign papers giving the courts the right to lock him up when they caught up with him.
Bobby's grandmother apologised to him later, but it was too late; the damage was done and the family had been successfully split up by Graham Baldwin, who as a 'cult expert' convinced the court that we were dangerous and that Bobby had, indeed, been kidnapped. Bobby was forced to stay with foster parents appointed by the court, until he turned 18.
The extract which Matilda posted omitted a couple of lines:
[McKay] said: "The thing that concerns us is that such a court order would never have been taken out if someone didn't think we were evil people. Before that we had the total support of his grandmother."
Mr Mackay founded the Jesus Christians in 1981. The cult, based in Australia, lives by strict interpretation of the Bible.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 04, 2006 06:09AM
Dave:
The consistent pattern here seems to be that Dave McKay is always right and others that criticize you are wrong.
Can you think of something you handled wrong Dave?
Or is anything critical said about you always a lie?
The consistent pattern here seems to be that Dave McKay is always right and others that criticize you are wrong.
Can you think of something you handled wrong Dave?
Or is anything critical said about you always a lie?
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
matilda
()
Date: November 04, 2006 07:39AM
That article has been on the rickross site for years! [www.culteducation.com]
McKay made some of these statements in a live GMTV interview.
Another extract
Extract from Sinister groups that take over the lives of their disciples
Daily Express (UK), July 14 2000 available at
[www.tolc.org]
But one of its basic rules is that members have to break contact with their families and friends. They are also expected to hand over all their worldly goods.
It was significant that within hours of involving teenager Bobby Kelly, from Romford, the group had taken his TV and video and then wanted to strip his room of his other belongings.
My Comment
It is not clear whether anyone had signed a permission slip for this or NOT!
McKay made some of these statements in a live GMTV interview.
Another extract
Extract from Sinister groups that take over the lives of their disciples
Daily Express (UK), July 14 2000 available at
[www.tolc.org]
But one of its basic rules is that members have to break contact with their families and friends. They are also expected to hand over all their worldly goods.
It was significant that within hours of involving teenager Bobby Kelly, from Romford, the group had taken his TV and video and then wanted to strip his room of his other belongings.
My Comment
It is not clear whether anyone had signed a permission slip for this or NOT!
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