Dear Apostate,

Thank you for sharing the news about Josh and Hannah. I'm sure many of us would want to join me in wishing them the best....

Oh my God, David is only contemplating senility (disconnect with reality, unable to perceive and interact with others in the world apart from whatever self - advantage he believes he can derive therein)....I'm sorry but I thought that's what he had been already been doing for the past twenty years.........whoops, my mistake!

I look forward to watching David helplessly observing his lifes' work unravel before his eyes......(once your dead and buried David, your faithful lieutenants will openly fight it amongst themselves for the spoils...but the preliminary jousting for pole position will certainly occur in your life time....with your instructions becoming more and more regularly flouted...)

Now that he's successfully modelled his empire of apparatchiks on Bin Laden terror network, (individual and independent self-organized cells, only answerable directly to the top) once the "Imam", passes on, the "struggle" will splinter along the lines of personality....the teachings of Christ now having being long ago jettisoned for reasons of expediency....

But David as he points out, at least has the option of the senile dementia to comfort him......

Dave wrote: [welikejesus.com]
"A couple of days ago, as people may remember, Malcolm wrote an unprecedented apology, for which we were very grateful... Craig followed it up with another attack on us..."

Curious, I thought I was fielding an "attack" on me.

Dave previously wrote: "...these are people with a type of perfectionist mentality, who crave an ideal world where all the bad guys have been done away with. For some like Malcolm and Craig in particular (and probably Rick and David Lowe as well), there is a desire to actually rule that world."

I questioned the credibility of an unsubstantiated claim made against RR posters in general and me in particular, by pointing out the EVIDENCE that suggests Dave is once again accusing others of what he himself is guilty of.

Funny how he sees himself victimised when we critically analyse the accusations he dishes out on us, and simply return his serve. Dave just keeps on repeating the point that he projects his own sins on to others.

Oh yes, while Dave enjoyed showing off his "perfectionist mentality" by identifying all of Malcolm's typos with his "sic" comments, he might like to correct some of the posters on his own forum.

Dave speaking against the seeking of justice [welikejesus.com]
So when we figuratively ate from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we moved into concepts of justice, which should have been left to God alone.

Dave, you certainly give across a very confusing message. No wonder your followers don't know where they stand on any particular issue. For example, in the above passage you say that mankind's desire for "justice" was the result of disobedience... and yet you have instituted a JC court where you mete out judgment!!

Should the judgment (whipping) you meted out on that Kenyan volunteer "have been left to God alone"? Going by what you have just said you seem to think so. If the Kenyan volunteer had "been left to God alone" he would not have been whipped for stealing to satisfy a craving for alcohol.

This latest teaching from you seems like yet ANOTHER example of you saying whatever comes to your head with no thought of any consistency. As Malcolm points out rather succinctly, I think, "the teachings of Christ now having being long ago jettisoned for reasons of expediency".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2008 05:27PM by apostate.

A head's up to everyone: "Kidneys For Jesus" is now available for downloading for free from the following website:

[holy-wow.wowtv.tv]

Right-click where it says "Download Video," then you'll see a prompt that says "Save Target As" (some operating systems will say "Save Link As") and then left click and you can download a copy directly to your computer that can be viewed even when you are not online. Do you all see it?

Enjoy, and get it while you can! More soon,

B



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 01:41PM by zeuszor.

Dave wrote: [welikejesus.com]
"A couple of days ago, as people may remember, Malcolm wrote an unprecedented apology, for which we were very grateful... Craig followed it up with another attack on us..."


Dear David,

Again I'm sorry...(if in fact I should be sorry??) It is difficult for me to "date" the exchanges that are occurring here.......if you are NOT seeking to goad me into some sort "response" (with what appears to be the very nature of "labelling" that you decry as uncalled from from your critics and which was seemingly made AFTER my "unprecedented apology")...then:

While we probably still remain worlds apart on issues of substance, I will again, (despite my immediately preceding posting) try not to continue "insulting for the sake of insulting"... and I again acknowledge the responsibility behind your original remark here....

And again in accordance with what you have stated, I will endeavour to politely "strongly disagree" with the JesusChristians (I, of course, would at this point in time, be little different from Apostates "attacks", in my interpretations of your behaviour....)....

I remain "somewhat concerned" (shall we say) about the covert proseltyzing that appears to be behind so much of the JC's endeavours(IMO), but I again acknowledge the value of the relief and charitable work undertaken in Kenya and acknowledge the inestimable value of kidney donations and those prepared to make these sacrifices.

While I would probably currently contest you legally, should suitable legislation ever exist, I publicly acknowledge the right of people to be able to hear of the JesusChristians and their beliefs and to be able to make informed decisions about membership. I acknowledge that current members of the JC's are there, because they so choose to be and that that right must be respected. (...while at the same time we would naturally argue about the "rights" that should or shouldn't exist with the JC's)



You cannot access this forum, however many members of the JC's still can (...they don't need to "stoop" to debate matters here, in a forum that is "beneath their dignity", merely "pass on" comments, with their times and dates, from you that would correct any factual errors of association I mistakenly ascribe to you...)


We can just return to "lobbing shells" at each other, from our "entrenched" positions...if it proves too "difficult" to be able to verify the sincerity behind the communication we share.....although that would seem a pity!

Dave comments (http://welikejesus.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=17757#17757) that when he said"...these are people with a type of perfectionist mentality, who crave an ideal world where all the bad guys have been done away with. For some, like Malcolm and Craig in particular (and probably Rick and David Lowe as well), there is a desire to actually rule that world" that he assumed people would understand that this is a trait he shares with his enemies, except that he believes he has created a little bit of that "utopia" within his own community.

It is good that Dave has corrected his position (little pointer "THESE PEOPLE" doesn't sound very inclusive), however the claim that because we oppose him using utopian ideals to isolate and exploit individuals from the imperfect world and then excuse himself from having to measure up to his own standards, must mean we are motivated by a similar urge is still a nonsense.

Dave purges those he believes are "bad people" from his community by literally kicking them out and restricting their contact even with family members who remain in his "world". But Dave is quite welcome on our planet and we would not forbid anyone from visiting him, in fact that is the main point of difference between us. Dave sits in judgement of a world that tolerates him doing that. All I am doing is pointing out that discrepancy. I am not withholding Dave's passport or bankbook, telling him he can't eat, taking away his assets, or sending him out with nothing in a foreign country. I am not requiring his wife to leave him to bring him into subjection, or luring him into a place where the local community can physically detain him and take turns telling him he is going to hell for daring to leave. I am not denying his mother the right to contact him, or making threats against people to force him to stop saying bad things about me. And I will not whip him or find a proxy to vent such aggression upon. These are things that happen in Dave's utopia, not the 'evil' world within which I live and contribute.

Dave may rule his bubble with a "rod of iron", but he has no authority in the real world, where I WILL as the mood hits me put 15 minutes in at the end of a working day and comment on his sociopathic double-standards.

Dave goes on to say:
"I think that anyone who was there at the time knew that Craig and Kevin were the leaders of the attempt to kick me out of the JCs, and they were the ones who established themselves as the leaders of the replacement ("Phoenix") community that sprang out of that split. It had nothing to do with anything so innocent as asking questions, something that has always been allowed amongst JCs. But it DOES have a lot to do with an attempt to distort just about everything I say in an attempt to make me look bad."

Dave keeps on flogging that old lie about "Craig and Kevin" trying to kick him out. Those who were there and saw Dave's paranoid and shameless power games, left and have had nothing to do with him ever since. It had nothing to with me putting up my hand for the job as leader. Why would people whose vote I failed to win, leave with me? Yes, some of us continued operating as a community in the aftermath of the mass expulsion where I continued to take on responsibilities, as I had in the old community. It doesn't have anything to do with anything we are discussing, and doesn't prove anything, but it DOES have a lot to do with a desperate (and futile) attempt to find something to make me look bad, OTHER than the things I say.

I seem to have committed the unpardonable sin of using Dave's own words to make him look bad. If Dave is going to accuse me of "distorting", please provide the evidence, because it doesn't help his credibility when he just makes stuff up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2008 04:47PM by apostate.

These are the notes from the 2008 Australian Yearly Meeting - Documents in Retrospect:

They are written by David. Sessions run really ought to be scribed by an independent person, but nevertheless (apparently) David has at least been honest about the mood of the session in this instance. Source:

[www.quakers.org.au]


Jesus Christians

Dave and Cherry McKay conducted a share and tell session during which Friends were able to ask questions with regard to what the Jesus Christians believe. Printed copies of hundreds of articles by members of the Jesus Christians were also made freely available to those who attended the session.
There were over 30 people who turned up, and Friends were asked to limit themselves to one question apiece, and to allow time for everyone to reflect on what was being said in response to their questions, as would happen during worship sharing. Sadly, this did not happen.

One practical obstacle was the size of the circle and the outdoors setting, which required Friends to shout if they wanted to be heard.This was not helpful in a situation where feelings were running high anyway. There were a few positive contributions, especially from young friends, one of whom suggested that tensions may have arisen between Friends and Jesus Christians because of fear rather than anything concrete that occurred.

At one point Tony Arden called on Friends to take a few moments to centre down, after which there were a few moments of calm. However, on the whole, the session seemed to be marred by a general prejudice on the part of some attendees, which led to numerous abuses of the rules: in particular, rapid-fire lists of accusations which were offered as ‘comments’ or occasionally only thinly disguised as questions, and the tendency for the same people to insist on challenging answers to questions that they had already raised.

It is clear that a lot more dialogue is needed between Friends and Jesus Christians, although this was, in some ways, a first step in that direction.

Dave McKay

New on YouTube

[youtube.com]

Interesting video from the UK

[youtube.com]

(In my new "non-insulting" persona...)

I wasn't present at the events, Apostate writes of where David persistently claims that Apostate and Kevin conspired to subvert his leadership...("I think that anyone who was there at the time knew that Craig and Kevin were the leaders of the attempt to kick me out of the JCs" David)...but then again neither was Fran nor Casey nor Ash...so they would seem to be as "biased" as me in any opinion they may venture upon it all ....their opinions in the eyes of any court, regrettably prejudiced far more than mine, by virtue of the fact that they are financially and emotionally dependant upon David for his "approval" and "consent"....

However irrespective of the possible deliberate prevarication of the part of the current membership of the JC's...given that the weight of evidence (the testimony of more than half a dozen people who WERE THERE AT THE TIME) is set dead against you, David, why would you imagine that people would see the incident in any other way other than as Apostate (and Kevin!) relate it ....the malicious use of "blanket" accusations that attempt to somehow "label" Apostate, of course only adding weight to his witness...(as well as adding weight to concerns about your sanity....those with a "perfectionist mentality" worry you, do they David! Oh ....so, er... you mean people like Christ, sort of, prey upon your imagination?)

Do you imagine that Rolands' "testimony" alone somehow vindicates whatever seeming fabrication that you might venture to indulge in.....

Here of course, we have none other than the Roland who in the recent "Wife-Swap" episode, so endeared himself to all Davids' opponents with his transparently superficial nature and plainly visible self conceit ....I remain mystified why (if at the same time somewhat grateful) that you persevere with him, David??.....Fran would obviously have the intelligence and Kim probably the graciousness to be far. far better frontmen for the JC's....is this just the "reward" Roland gets for perjuring Kevin (and physically assisting evict him from the home that was as much legally his as yours)....Roland was promoted to chief henchman for "life"....hence he always gets first pickings at any media bites as a matter of course.....?

Well its nice to know that that's the awful price you had to pay David, for conspiring to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (e.g. fraud and wilful gain through deceit), with Rolands' connivance.....


I want of course to avoid being simply insulting for the sake of being insulting, don't I.....


but you know... thats' the great thing about dealing with Roland, isn't it!....No matter how carelessly castigating and contemptously insulting you may unthinkingly be with him.... in the end ........ it all turns out to be true anyway.....!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2008 10:42PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Right now on RR there is a link to a video download regarding kidney donations and the JCs. I must say, it seemed to me that the "reporter" was trying to spin this into something it wasn't. It was almost as if the "reporter" was intentionall trying to say that the JCs are a cult, when such is obviously not the case. Worse is that he was trying to take a good humanitarian gesture and twist into the proof of a cult. Hope and I have discussed the idea of kidney donations before. Neither of us is in a position right now though where we could do so.

Casey, I commend you on your donation. May God bless you and everyone else who has donated. I may someday join the ranks of a live organ donor. Until then, I am going to pray for those that do and also that more people will.

[welikejesus.com]

Tofferer, Tofferer, Tofferer. You really are willfully ignorant, aren't you? Jon Ronson (the "reporter" whom you refer to) is an internationally respected documentary film maker and author. He is not some hack, and he is not without experience. Did you actually watch the whole documentary, or just the first few minutes of it?

[jonronson.com]

Nobody ever said that they thought that live-donor kidney donation was a bad idea. I personally don't think it's a bad idea. It's not so much what the JCs say that they believe in that is troublesome, it's what they do as based on what they say that they supposedly stand for. I am a Christian too and am all for obeying Jesus. Simply put, DM is a big fat hypocrite. He uses all of these altruistic causes that he attaches himself to for his own self-glorification and as attention-seeking behavior. "All glories to Dave and his movement!" he'd have us cry.

Besides, if you think that they are so great, why don't you join them? In the JC world, you are nothing but a hypocrite yourself anyway because you call yourself a Christian and yet have not "forsaken all." You are nothing but a "churchy" or a "systemite" to them. But they wouldn't call you that to your face or call you such on their forum, lest they lose your support. Here the JC double standard is revealed. This is the essence of their Orwellian doublethink. If you are a Christian and like them, they call you a supporter. If you are a Christian and criticize them, they contemptuously call you a "churchy."

If the JCs are not a cult, Tofferer, then please enlighten us: what DOES a cult look like in your eyes?

Because you do not seem to "get it" I will be as patient as I can, and repeat myself. This is a cut and paste from something that I wrote last August 5.

Following are my five main (generalized) points of objection to JC policy and procedure.

1) Witnessing to and agreeing to meet with minors who are "potentials" is wrong. Period. They have no business talking to any High Schooler who is not yet 18. David ought to respect the rights and boundaries of the parents of these kids.

2) They say they work for love and not money. OK, so what is with all of the constant money-generating schemes? What is with all of the organ and body-fluid donation? Why do they sell David's books on the street? To whom does all of the money go, and who controls it?

Basically, how come it seems like everybody in the JCs has to forsake all except for David and Cherry?

3) It seems to me that DM has put a legalistic over-emphasis on the red letters (Gal 2:16), and that the JCs constantly negatively judge other Christians and churches by that fallacious standard. Their collective attitude and MO seems heavy on judgment and is highly provocative, but I feel no grace from them. (Jam 2:13).

4) (related to 3) They all generally seem to have nothing but contempt for those who would question them. Where are the fruits of the Spirit in what the world can see of the JCs? (Gal 5:19-26)

5) When was the last time that Ash and Joseph called their mothers and told them that they love them? Why does DM prevent parents from having open access to their own children?

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And a question on what was written by Malcolm, above:


but you know... thats' the great thing about dealing with Roland, isn't it!....No matter how carelessly castigating and contemptously insulting you may unthinkingly be with him.... in the end ........ it all turns out to be true anyway.....!

You know these people better than I do, sir, and I am a wee bit perplexed. Is Roland as arrogant, vain, and narcissistic as DM, do they mutually feed of of one another's grandiose self-importance, or what exactly is the nature of their association and relationship in your considered opinion? Mutual admiration society, master/slave relationship, or what? Please explain. Apostate, please throw in your two cents' as well.

The Dude Abides!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2008 12:58PM by zeuszor.