Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 02:06AM

This morning, I received this PM. Blackhat, I have asked you respectfully in the past not to write me at all any more. Yet you did anyway. Please do not write to me privately any more. I feel that any and all communications between us should be public and not kept at all in the dark. Mr. Kyoo can speak for himself. Here is the message that you sent me and my reply to it.

Dear Private Eyes and Zeuszor,

Not a word from either of you for nearly a fortnight since my email details were published by Zeuszor, because Private Eyes told him he didn't trust me. Well so much for trust! You betrayed my trust and gave information for David to identify me. Thanks guys, but why the silence? What? Nothing to say to me? Operational reasons? Cat got your tongue?

If you do PM me, I undertake not to publish, AS ALWAYS! I think my credentials are now rock solid, but you shouldn't have outed me to prove that......

So do you have anything to say to me?



Here's why I though that you were one of DM's spies, or "moles:"

1) The use of the name "Anita" (you called yourself "Anita Kay"; it is congruent with DM's sick sense of humor. Remember Anita Foster?), 2) lying about the name and later admitting it when I busted you, 3) accusing me of stalking and intimidation as a result of checking up on you, 3) coming in and trying to control the forum before establishing any reasonable credibility, 4) creating dissension and confusion by accusing Mr. Kyoo of being a "Double Agent", 5) asking a lot of questions about our identities and also asking for information about exactly what we know, but giving no answers about yours, and again, lying about your name and location, and then getting pissed off when we proved that you lied. 6) DM has sent in molls and trolls in the past in order to figure out what and how much we know and generally screw with us. Al and Glenn are two of them. How am I just supposed to take what you say at face value?

On the other hand, I know all of my source's names, mailing addresses, phone numbers, and places of employment. They have sent me books, DVDs, data on the JCs, assorted intel on DM's whereabouts and activities, money for various expenses (I do not profit from this) and have in general more than proved their credibility and I trust my sources completely.

No you are playing the victim and fishing for an apology from me. You will not get one.

I am not harassing or stalking anybody. Isn't it prudent to know who we are dealing with? Of course it is. I would not put ANYTHING past DM and his clones.

IMHO, this JC discussion forum is in a circumstance in which anonymity should not be encouraged. But that is everybody's right, and I have to respect that right.

I have made it my policy not to deal very much with persons who insist on remaining anonymous.

Anita, you have only yourself to blame. In all honesty, I do not feel bad about outing you and have never lost a wink of sleep worrying about it. If you had not lied to us in the first place then this would not have happened. Tough. If you wanted to involve yourself in the forum and surrounding activity then she should have been honest. You knew that we were seriously, professionally out to stop McKay and should have had better sense. We checked up on you, looked into the name you gave me, and figured out that you lied. This is serious stuff that we are talking about. I take this investigation very seriously. This is not some little hobby to me. If you were that paranoid, then you should not have been a busybody, I say. You should have told somebody your real ID. You admitted that you lied. I would put nothing past DM and his pods. It is incumbent upon us to verify who we are dealing with.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 02:32AM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: February 10, 2008 02:39AM

Please cease the personal attacks and bickering.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 06:07AM


These guys are a group of regular C.S. Lewises. Theological geniuses. They are are having a discussion over there called, "Does Evil Exist?"

Seriously though, DM does not know the Bible nearly as well as he thinks he does, and is not qualified to lead a blind man to the toilet, much less lead a spiritual movement. He never asks, what did Jesus say on the topic? He only says "I think this, I think that." DM (or anybody else for that matter) never quotes from the Bible ever in the course of the discussion, let alone asks what Jesus said on the matter. David only proffers a lot , "Well, in my opinion..." A very revealing quote from Professor McKay (italics added for emphasis by myself):


As you probably know, I have used the same terminology that you have used, i.e. that God "created" evil, in order to give us something else to choose, but understanding that the WAY he created it is simply by giving us free choice shows us that evil is just something that comes from our abuse of free choice.

As for this idea about evil not existing, I have found it to be quite practical,
especially when I was preaching in Kenya about superstition. The local pastors had encountered a LOT of superstition, which is, essentially, fear of the devil. And so the theme of my preaching was along the lines of recognising that the devil/evil is just the absence of God. When you turn the light on, you realise what a silly thing it is to be afraid of the devil... just like when a parent turns the light on in the bedroom of a child who has just had a nightmare. It doesn't take away ALL of the fear, but it is a very important step in overcoming fear... just to see how much of it is just in our imagination.

So David is telling us that there is no such thing as evil. Therefore, David can do no wrong. I am not going to bother to explain to him how he has abused his power of free choice to wreak havoc in other people's lives, it's so glaringly obvious that even Stevie Wonder could see it. But not David!

Hmmm...I wonder, what did JESUS say on the matter, Apostle? This quote makes it abundantly clear to me that you believe that whatever David McKay thinks is superior to what Jesus says. "I have found it to be quite practical." Of course you have. It's a convenient excuse to do whatever you want. Good Lord.

Golly Gee, look over at and run a search for the word "evil" occurring in KJV. Looks like Jesus said a lot about evil. Jesus knew that evil is real. Here is a sampling of what Jesus said on whether evil exists:

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

See how much the Bible talks about whether evil exists, Jesus Christians. Did it ever occur to any of you to look in there? I overestimated you, David, gave you too much credit. You are even less intelligent than I thought.

Let's try not to think about it and chant The Casey Mantra instead:

"Lahaahlah...look at all the pretty colors...lalalala...David good, critics bad, David good, critics bad, David good, critics like David...David so want to BE David...David good, critics bad, David good, critics bad, David good, critics bad..."

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 06:32AM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 07:11AM

David, your vanity and your ego are your own worst enemies. I love it how you do most of the work for me. YOU make David McKay look bad better than anybody else ever could. How acutely that quote unambiguously maps the inner workings of your demented and sinister mind. You just hand us this stuff, man. I cannot believe how easy you make it for me. That's a real jewel of a quote I mined from your mind today, I can tell you:

"As you probably know, I have used the same terminology that you have used, i.e. that God "created" evil, in order to give us something else to choose, but understanding that the WAY he created it is simply by giving us free choice shows us that evil is just something that comes from our abuse of free choice.

As for this idea about evil not existing, I have found it to be quite practical..."

Wow. Hmmm, what did Jesus say about the matter? Oh yes, here it is:

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Can you tell us about the good fruits of your life and ministry David? Tell us about the legacy you wish to leave behind. What good fruit do you have to show for yourself?

By standing firm you will gain life. (Luke 29:19 NIV)

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 07:17AM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 08:01AM


We really do need to consider offering Brian honorary membership in the Jesus Christians! He has been such a wonderful source of information about both Anita Walker and David Lowe.

Who in the hell is David Lowe? If I've told you once I've told you a million times:


Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 09:27AM

Hey, a happy birthday Jayme and Ezra! You two turned 30 just a few days ago, right?

One more thing and then I'll call it a day as far as my research goes. From David, once again:

BTW, XXXXX live in Ashville, North Carolina, not that far from where we store our books for the U.S. East Coast team. Maybe it won't be long before she bumps into us on the streets, while trying to sell her books!

Maybe so, while she is trying to sell her books or you guys yours.

You know who's also in Asheville, NC? Yoneq the Super-Apostle, of Twelve Tribes fame!


Let me venture a guess: now that the Quakers have seen through you and given you the boot, are you going to disguise yourselves as Messianic Christians next in an effort to infiltrate and exploit the Twelve Tribes? I'll even bet that that team has already been to the TT community there. Asheville is only big enough for one super-apostle, David. Yoneq was a heck of a lot more successful in his movement than you'll ever be in yours.

"The view had been expressed to me, that any religious society that defines itself too loosely may be ripe for a takeover by a cult." Could one cult be in the process of attempting a takeover of another?

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 09:43AM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 10, 2008 11:48AM

Dear Zeusor,

In my own "eloquent" words yet again,....

I feel a great deal of sympathy for Blackhat, and would feel a lot more comfortable with your own dialogue with here (which I see posted publicly here....hence you are inviting comment), if you didn't simply dismiss her concerns with a seemingly contemptuous "Tough".....the moderator has asked that we "cease bickering" however in relation to such occurences IN THE FUTURE, even if you become aware of some possible indiscrepancies in the identities of those on the board, I think it would be far wiser to handle the matter differently....

"We really do need to consider offering Brian honorary membership in the Jesus Christians! He has been such a wonderful source of information about both Anita Walker and David Lowe."

Of course, David is mocking you here......(...with all the self-indulgent and self-congratulatory humour of the simple mind of a "brat" who never grew up!)

While its "nice" to know the "enfant d-terrible", now in his sixties, is still capable of laughter (....even if it is only at the expense of others!)....Lets just avoid giving him this opportunity in other instances.......Don't seek to "out" contributers to this will only discourage participants.....and will gain nothing.....We certainly don't need to compete with David with examples of how "well" we can nominate and locate the people involved here.

(I mean, I know the location of Davids real "Father".....I would have shared this earlier but it's just that there are no street numbers in Hades, you know.......)

You have my private email, phone details, and you can have any ID you seek from me....that's fine with me, but it's a decision I've made.... I really don't think that that expectation should be required of others.....

......just let the "discussion" on the board speak for itself.....

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 11:53AM

Blackhat, things can get nasty in here, and I myself have tolerated a barrage of BS over my involvement in this matter; I have withheld ad hominem attacks, name-calling, threats against my person, threats of legal action, dirty double-crossing tricks DM pulled on me (like when I was going to meet them in Houston.) I have been investigated as well.....I never take any of it personally and would advise you not to also.

That being said:

Blackhat, I am sorry for the results of what has happened. I would be lying to you if I told you that I do not regret at all what has happened (e.g. David ending up with the personal details of a contributer to this site, namely yourself.) Please do not stop contributing here. This is not about egos or personalities, leaders or followers. The only concerned party that I have a problem with is named David McKay. Exposing and stopping him should be our common goal. We should come out of this stronger and more united, instead of divided and weakening.

We should avoid similar situations in the future...

Truce? Shake on it?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 12:18PM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 10, 2008 12:32PM

Blackhat, I am well aware of the consequences of what I did, and did not intend for any collateral damage in exposing you. I did what I did in what I judged to be the best interests of all concerned here. If we work together and forget the politics involved here, we can get a lot more done in the way of undermining the McKay Family Business. Agreed?

Can we let the past be in the past, Blackhat? Can we please move on? We need all of the willing and able bodies we can get in this struggle. What do you say? Shake?

It's been a long day. I am going to bed now. Logging off.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 12:38PM by zeuszor.

Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: February 11, 2008 01:00PM

Dear All,

It would seem that emotions have been running pretty hot at this forum, especially recently. I think it's important that we understand that each of us has the potential to stray from common sense and decency at times. As the proverb says, we're only human. And it would seem that this ‘truth’ of our fragile humanity is emphasised when we have something like the Internet to express our thoughts and opinions.

But it is this humanity that is also our common bond, our strength. It is our humanity – our ability to value individuality - that differentiates us from those who would propagate uniformity and censorship. We have to make a concerted effort not to indulge in emotional game-playing, reckless judgment and small-minded slander. We have to be as careful with our ‘super human’ ability to express ourselves as we are with those we may have difficulty understanding and tolerating.

I, for one, do not wish to express any hatred or malice towards those I sincerely believe are part of my wider community. In many ways, this wider community has no boundaries – none whatsoever - and I would not be the first to admit that I can always try harder at curbing my anger and frustration, especially when I can exercise other avenues of virtue, i.e. tolerance, understanding and a clear head. Especially, remaining level-headed enough to try and do what it is I’m trying to do through the best means possible.

I sincerely think each of us, Apostate, Zeuszor, Malcolm, Private Eyes, Blackhat, Muppet, Cultmalleus, Cait, Dogmother, etc, etc. are mature enough not to be put off by each other’s right to a voice at this forum. However, I think it is admirable – no, necessary – to not only applaud the work being done here but also to watch out for each other when any one of us strays from common sense or decency. This is not censorship but the positive expression of a loving community.

I know what I’m saying seems trite. It is. But I am compelled to state the sentimental obvious because I truly value the effectiveness of this forum. I know it's easy, perhaps convenient, to brush off the tens of thousands of words that have been shared here because it doesn't seem to amount to much real progress, but I am confident that this thread has had and will have an impact on the JCs, now and forever more. Okay, now I'm really getting sentimental...


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2008 01:08PM by Jack Oskar Larm.

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