private eyes, thanks for the illumination. Okay, so he seems to be the genuine article. Regardless of this, he is behaving on this forum with utter contempt. I can accept that feelings are running hot, especially now. But as I stated on a recent post, aspects of our character are revealed when we're gripped by emotion/stress. Fortunately, this forum is quite tolerant of a person's flights of emotion. But only to a point.

I agree that people deserve respect and protection. But I'm not thoroughly convinced that anyone is in harm's way. As I also stated quite recently, we haven't really established if Alice wants her voice heard or not. I'm not so naive as to suggest that Zeuszor's claims are fully accurate, but I'm also not so naive as to suggest that what he claimed was not true.

I definitely take offense at any sort of bullying tactics, especially by a third party. And, do I have to say it again, THERE ARE AVENUES AND LAWS to protect the innocent, especially when the so-called accused is being transparent. I can't help thinking that Rob McKay is not unlike the mob in 'To Kill A Mockingbird' trying to take the law into their own hands.

Yeah, I can accept that I have a tendency toward hyperbole. I am also the first to admit that I would want to protect my own mother, too.

And, because I'm somewhat stupid, what harm has been done to Dave's extended family because of Zeuszor's, Letter To David?

Jack, the intention of any contact was to gain legitimate biographical information. Dave has made various claims over the years and with further information we are in a position to test the validity of those claims. As you pointed out yourself it is quite appropriate when you have public figures to have research conducted on their background.

However, the information that was gained was more along the lines of, your Mother doesn't like you, Dave doesn't visit, etc. We know from various sources that he does visit and he even on ocasion he tells us he does, through his newsletters, etc. A good researcher will not simply take information on board, but seek to qualify it from other sources.

I have discussed the issue with Zeuszor privately, which I believe to be a better way in dealing with the matter. We agree to disagree on many points. However, we share the same views on many as well.

I think the issue is one of truth. Not that Zeuszor lied or Alice lied. But that Alice, as an 86 year old, maybe confused as to what the truth is. In that situation, the family would rightly feel an injustice has occured. That misinformation has been posted and will be accepted as fact.

Rob may have come out swinging, but as I tried to indicate (and you didn't get the hint). I think the matter has now been resolved.

Some good may come of all of this. The family now knows our original intentions were honourable and if they want to speak, they know where to find us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2007 06:29AM by private eyes.

A tactic often used by cults is to take a simple issue and make it complicated.

The Jesus Christians/Quaker situation has generated thousands of words of analysis and yet the truth is very simple:

The Quakers felt that they were being infiltrated by a cult. Understandably, they weren't very happy about this situation and so they took action against those concerned.

End of story.

Quote
apostate
I spoke the truth when I said that Aghast was one of Dave's brothers. It seems that your thoughtless action is driving away ALL ex-members. It seems that this thread is no longer a place where we can share our experiences and draw encouragment from one another.

The last time I checked, sir, this was called the Cult Education Forum, not the ex-Jesus Christians Recovery Group Forum.

That is what I am here for. Education and prevention. Not division and disruption. I never meant for anybody to get hurt, if anybody ever did. I have made mistakes and had missteps along the way, but in general do not regret taking this on in the first place and will admit that I find my work at once very gratifying but also very depressing. Unless DM had hurt a lot of people over the years, I'd have had nothing to do for all this time. So I do not glory in any of this. But I sincerely believe that the hand of God has been on me (us) all along and can only give glory for what He has done.

At the risk of sounding like I am "boasting", I'd say that I have just about accomplished my mission: I have substantially contributed in a coordinated, organized, international effort to educate the public about DM and his group, and like to think that I just may have prevented one or two people from joining them as a result of the material that I have helped to present. Most of the legwork in this investigation was not done by me. I am just the guy who presented it to the public. We have done a lot in this year that I have been really focused on the JCs. I am grateful for this.

I leave you with a Scripture:

2Cr 11:16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting.
2Cr 11:17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.
2Cr 11:18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast.
2Cr 11:19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!
2Cr 11:20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
2Cr 11:21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!







Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2007 01:03PM by zeuszor.

Quote
zeuszor

The last time I checked, sir, this was called the Cult Education Forum, not the ex-Jesus Christians Recovery Group Forum.

Obviously

Dave responds to a critique of my postings. Can someone please explain?


What would Jesus have done? Is this the Christ you represent and try to live by? Here is the bizarre posting, and it seems to contain a lot of aggression:


"Sorry to ruin your mind-reading act, Malcolm, but Paul was interviewed by a student reporter, and she forgot to get Roland's last name, and so at the last minute, she just made up a last name and sent it in to the paper, and they used it. No harm done, except in your twisted mind. Like Roland really is scared that you might learn that he distributes Jesus Christian literature? Ha!"

[welikejesus.com]


All interpretations welcome, I can't fathom it!

Blackhat, There was an article in a New Zealand newspaper in September 2007 entitled, "Kidney donor Christians make 'ultimate gift'

It related the story of Paul HENRY's kidney "donation". In it Roland GIANSTEFANI was referred to as Roland PHILLIPS. Dave says the name was "made up" by the reporter. He is probably writing as we speak to the newspaper to correct the error and to make sure Roland gets full credit for recruiting Paul. After all, any Google search on Roland GIANSTEFANI would simply reveal he distributes Jesus Christan literature.

Dave, what took you so long? As recently as a few days ago, you posted on your forum the presumed--by the know-it-all you--identities of several people. You listed me as Muppet. Who is Muppet? Could you be wrong about anyone, anything? Does it matter that much? It certainly doesn't to me.

I spoke to your mother, Alice, and of course gave her my name. Wouldn't dream of deception. Our conversation was very brief and warm, mother to mother. She offered to pray for you and all the other sons and daughters. That's what we did. End of story. As I said before, you were cruel by bombarding her and telling her she made a mistake.

Happy Holidays, Dave. Relax! Focus on the good in you and others. When your ego overcomes you, focus on your own faults and not the faults of others.

You know little about our family...3 grown-up daughters, 2 sons-in-law, 2 midle-aged sons, 2 daughters-in-law, 6 grandchildren, 7 cats, 6 dogs. We are multi-racial and combine, harmoniously, the beliefs of several world religions. I have always believed that the world is one country and mankind its citizens. All our kids are successful, happy human beings, who not only focus on themselves, but also on how we can change and enlighten the world by serving the oneness of humankind, eleviate poverty and war.

I study at the university for a MLA degree, I lecture about injustices, I am a wife, mother, grandmother (non-stalking), friend, author, vegetarian, and animal-right activist, plus I hold a job. I am not obsessed with you Dave.

This forum has certainly been helpful. Thank you, Rick Ross. Thank you to everyone who has contributed on this thread in such a meaningful way. It's okay to take a break once in a while (Dave's persona is stressful) and to disagree. Let others shine with their knowledge, humor and ability for satire.

Just a quick post to tell you all that I got the DVD of the show in the mail today, but only got part one, the first day of the two day series. The second show, the one that I was on, was not in the package. Vain me, I was SO looking forward to seeing that segment in its entirety. What happened, I wonder? Will I get part 2 in the mail someday? In any case, I'll work on getting it on YouTube over the weekend. More later.

[welikejesus.com]

A lot of interesting biographical material from David McK to be had here. Capture it while you can.

But I would really love to hear the story that Alice supposedly told you about all the groups that I wrecked as a little kid! I was Student Body President at my high school. Did I do some damage to the student body there? I was Freshman Class President in my first year at college. Did I do something wrong there? Isn't it amazing how you can see evil in everything, Brian! (Italics added.)

We have since been told by David Lowe, the Quaker Private Investigator, that he is the person who gave Brian the information he needed to make this call. David Lowe says that it is to Brian's credit that he waited five months before taking matters into his own hands and posing as a researcher, preparing a biographical piece on myself. It is strangely coincident that David Lowe himself used the exact same language in describing what he had gathered that information for. He says that he has a professional researcher (a historian for the Quakers, I believe) who has used (or would be using) it in her efforts to get complete records about myself. (Like if Alice says I am 63, and I say I am 62, then they won't have their records messed up by an insane monster trying to make himself out to be younger than he is! Ha! Of course it was not such innocent material that either David Lowe, his Quaker historian/researcher, or Brian Birmingham were really interested in.

David, quit punishing the REAL David Lowe, whoever he is. The grief you must be causing this man! If you have some kind of proof of what you say, simply produce it please; call my bluff. I can back up my words, can you? I'd love to see that psychiatrist's report on myself, for instance, where he's analyzing my posts? That'd be a hoot.

How many times should I tell you? If I have told you once, I have told you a million times: there is no relationship whatsoever between myself and Lowe. Nobody be that name figures into this matter at all. Leave him alone. You are beating a dead horse, I assure you. You'll NEVER get my real source's name. That's it. Believe me or don't but it's true.

DM is even saying now that I myself am a Quaker, that the Quakers had actually made those calls to his mother,


"Plain speech" is a very Quaker phrase, and one that the general public does not use much. Obviously, Brian is becoming more and more Quaker in his thought and speech, or else he had some Quaker assistance in this report!

Either that, or you or obviously becoming more and more demented and paranoid, and living in more of your fantasy life than in this place that the rest of us call "reality." Think so? Nah, couldn't be.

DM takes my posts apart line by line, responds to them one at a time, over-analyzes my words and reads all kinds of negativity and his paranoid projections into them, all so typical, classic DM. Yawn...



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2007 05:50AM by zeuszor.