Quote
zeuszor
Jack's right, Apostate: the fact that you say you can vouch for aghast means little. Please sir, give us a clue of some kind as to who the other caller was so that we can know with reasonable certainty that you are being truthful. Nothing personal, no offense.

I spoke the truth when I said that Aghast was one of Dave's brothers. It seems that your thoughtless action is driving away ALL ex-members. It seems that this thread is no longer a place where we can share our experiences and draw encouragment from one another.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2007 04:58PM by apostate.

There is a fundamental difference between this forum and a cult forum. In a cult forum, everyone eventually has to agree with the leader, or leaves, or is barred.

This forum is not a cult forum. People can strongly disagree about things, and not resove them, but that has no bearing on whether or not they can continue to post. As long as they are not on the forum as an apologist for a cult, and abide by the basic rules of human engagement, they can go ahead and criticise and disagree and question each other without any fear of reprisals or condemnation (or eternal damnation!).

The thing I value during all of this is that everyone is regarded as an equal in stating their opinion. There is no "leader" like David McKay putting in their endless explanations of "right thinking", deconstructing what everyone else says to suit his ideas in a way no true academic would tolerate (look how he went on that theology forum!!!!), and using his power and insistent persuasion to get everyone else to eventually "see things his way"!

apostate, Jack, private eyes, Talamasca, Zeuszor, hello, Malcolm, matilda, cultmalleus: you are all individuals who have come here on this forum because of one thing. The fact that you don't want this person hurting any more people. The frictions you throw up against each other work to spark the flame which brings a light upon the injustice and violation of human rights we see. So don't you go thinking that because you don't agree with someone on this forum, that you should leave. There are plenty of independent and diverse people here who join the mix, and we don't all necessarily agree, except about one thing........so............

Keep disagreeing and spitting your dummies! It proves that nobody rules your thoughts, ideas or spiritual life any longer! You are "Free Of DM!" (Loved that name...)

Back in June I alerted forum readers to an article that I saw and thought it might be good for people to take a look at it. I included an excerpt so that people could get a taste of what it was about. I see Dave has twisted my post, saying something along the lines of, this is the best quote quote I could get on him. Rubbish of course, the post was purely designed to let people know about the article. But here it is:

BEWARE THOSE GROUPS THAT DECEIVE By Columnist: Pamela Hale-Burns
Press Telegram, November 25, 2006

Christians have been called many things: fanatical, self-righteous, holier-than-thou and much more.

At times, I, as a Christian, get tired of all the misunderstandings of our faith. Today, however, I am on the other side of the labeling when it comes to groups – what I call cults – that identify themselves as followers of Jesus Christ.

Those I speak of today are the Jesus Christians. Although the group has members in Sydney, Australia, London, England, Nairobi, Kenya and Los Angeles, it was reported in July 2005 as having only 30 members worldwide.

As with most cults, the Jesus Christians have some really strange religious practices that have absolutely nothing to do with who Jesus is.

First, they do not believe that the Bible is God’s Word, but that Jesus himself is God’s Word, so they follow his life.

Yes Jesus was God’s word in the flesh, but my question is this: Who among them has seen Jesus and watched his lifestyle personally? How can they know how Jesus lived if not for what has been recorded in His Word by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it?

This column is not to question the validity of this group’s arrival at salvation, or if they’ve even arrived, but only to show how far some will go in an effort to start their own group of worshippers.

Not worshippers of God or even his son Jesus, but of the leaders or founders of such groups themselves.

Remember seeing, as a child, the many who followed a self-proclaimed servant of God, Jim Jones, all eventually commit suicide by drinking poison at his command.

They weren’t followers of Jesus, because Jesus tells us that he came so that we might have life more abundantly. They were following and worshipping Jim Jones.

Same with the Jesus Christians: They are not following Jesus, but the group’s founder, David McKay.

McKay, who declares there’s nothing unique about the group’s teachings but that they simply put it together differently, admits their standards are a bit extreme, which turns many away from becoming a part of the group.

One such standard is followers must refuse to work. They are told they cannot serve God and mammon. McKay’s basis for this: Luke 16:13-15.

These scriptures are not against working for money; they speak against loving money. The Bible clearly states that it is the love of money that is the root of all evil (I Tim. 6:10).

Members are also told that they must forsake everything and everyone in their lives. Thus they leave their jobs, schools, families and possessions, their place in the world. The group is against private ownership and members live together in a community of other Jesus Christians in trailers and tents.

It is my belief that when someone’s goal is to take people away from the family that loves them, jobs that support them and surroundings they are comfortable in, it is in a mere attempt to make followers rely solely on a leader. That leader is McKay.

He is like Jim Jones, who moved his followers to an entire different continent to keep them from their loved ones, those who could possibly convince them that they were being deceived.

According to the Jesus Christians’ belief, people from non-Christian religions can be saved on the basis of their faith in God even if they’ve never heard of Jesus.

However, according to Scripture, Jesus says “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)

The group is also against Christian churches, stating that there are several errors in the church, which could have eternal consequences.

Show me a church without issues or without some problems and I’ll show you the perfect church. There aren’t any.

As recently as last month, the group was featured on the news, where a family was trying to get their teenage son away from the group.

Joseph Johnson had been a straight-A student and was a star basketball player and track athlete as well. He had received scholarship offers from several universities.

To his family’s dismay, the Jesus Christians delivered their message to Johnson and shortly before his graduation as salutatorian from Junipero Serra High School in Gardena, California, he joined the group.

After one of its members was allegedly attacked by Johnson’s family the group decided to hold its own trial at an undisclosed location in Long Beach for the family.

Johnson’s parents and brothers were asked to be at the trial. If the family did not appear, which they didn’t, members of the Jesus Christians, including their son Joseph, would take their punishment for them, which was whipping.

“We believe that this is a radically new approach to crime, where the judge/jury only impose a sentence which they themselves are willing to take,” said McKay.

“No punishment will be handed out without written consent on the part of the person receiving the punishment. Our reason for doing this is because we are more interested in rehabilitation than in retribution.

“We believe that the elements of consent and substitution offer a truly Christian alternative to normal court proceedings. Even the idea of someone being whipped is, in our opinion, more merciful than locking someone up for years.”

The whipping, which I witnessed on the news, showed a group of young adults who seemed lost, insecure and naïve, looking for hope in their lives. They had ignorantly put their trust in and given their lives to a man seeking to grow his ego with attention and lordship over people.

Nowhere in Scripture did Jesus and his followers beat each other for punishment. So what part of Jesus’ life did they get the beatings from?

McKay says they are being persecuted because they are followers of Christ, but from what I’ve seen and read, they’ve been persecuted because they are merely causing division among families and loved ones, something Jesus never did. No one has been persecuting them for following Jesus. Why? Because they aren’t following him.

How dare McKay place his selfish mission with what Jesus’ life and ministry were about?

It saddens me that many in today’s society are looking for hope, love and acceptance so much that they resort to groups such as these who lead them astray and teach them to be separate and to distance themselves from those they love.

This is yet another attempt to confuse people in order to keep them away from the one true loving God. Jesus, God’s son, lived a life of love. Yes, he had very meager means of support, but his mission was to spread the gospel as far and as to as many as he could during his three years of ministry. He never taught against working. In fact scripture tells us that if we don’t work we don’t eat (2Thes. 3:10).

He never taught us against loving others who are not like you or don’t believe as you do. But it was he who said, “He that loves not, knows not God, for God is love.”

I am personally sick and tired of these so-called Christian groups popping up their ugly heads with their messages of bondage, not freedom.

For where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).

These groups teach a life of barely making it. Life more abundantly is what Jesus promised his followers.

Life more abundantly does not mean you live in need. Jesus said he would supply all of our needs. We have need of housing. We have need of money. We have need of jobs. He supplies those needs according to his riches in glory.

It’s time for us to be on our guard, for ourselves and our children. Many false prophets will rear their heads and it’s important that we recognize them for who they really are: deceivers.

MY VIEW:

I believe Dale made his point in his first post. He and his Mother wish to be left alone. End of story.

His second post however, had the potential to inflame, as he makes the mistake of joining in on the argument and seeks to be divisive. His right of course. But you reap what you sow.

It is an open forum and people have expressed their views both publicly and privately to each other. What happened shouldn’t have happened, and people have expressed why it happened, taken responsibility and offered apologies in some cases.

If Alice told Zeuszor something that wasn’t correct it may have been better for Dale to use the opportunity to correct the misinformation. For example, Alice should have told him that Dave actually visits her once a year (or whatever is the case).

Want to protect Alice? For a start get an unlisted number. Whilst we may be able to encourage others to do the right thing here, there is a world out there that has heard of Dave McKay and we can’t stop everyone who wants to call, from calling.

Speak to Dave and explain to him, how his actions can impinge on other family members. How his constant quest for fame and publicity will make people curious about his background. Better still; challenge him to publish it himself.

In regards to ex members. Just because someone is seen to be crossing the line, I hope Ex members don’t feel they can no longer contribute. It is probably more important now that you do. Demonstrate by example how you believe the Forum can be a useful tool.

If you disagree with something, do what you do now, disagree. Or lodge a complaint with the moderator. Rick has already said that he didn’t support the action that took place.

Let's move on and let's all (including myself) try to be a bit more sensitive to each other and respectful of those who are not directly involved in this matter. Or involved through no choice of their own.

As Aghast is a reader of this forum, he will be aware (as I have stated previously) that early on in my "career" in the JC's, his brother privately took me aside(out of the community home in the countryside to an isolated street phone booth in Tallangatta, one night), where he required me to call my own mother and threaten her that I would never so much as speak to her again, if she ever spoke out publicly in criticism of David again....(this followed remarks my mother made to a newspaper in Australia)....the emotional blackmail we see her, so typifying the "man" in question.....behaviour also seen more recently in his dealings with Fred Ngogre in Kenya...


EVERYONE's mother is involved here, irrespective of whether or not they have purposely chosen to have their "sweet, elderly mothers involved" or not.....and as I see not a WORD of protest from you about the "involvement" of anyone others mother....or of the treatment that has been meted out to them over YEARS and YEARS.....only your offence that your mother has been ACCURATELY quoted after a few minutes phone conversation..........I will presume you to be an utter hypocrite!!

(As Aghast has posted....)

I post here in regards to rule #3. My elderly mother is being utilized as a tool to fuel your hatemongering website, and the viciousness of how her words were used leaves me AGHAST. If you wish to believe the information (obviously, because it might support your point of view), then you must believe that I am one of the pious (devout, religious, honest) sons. So you must therefore believe me when I tell you it is FULL of falisies. I will not stoop to quibble about what is true and what is false, I will simply say: DO NOT UTILIZE WORDS FROM MY MOTHER (either quoted, or twisted) to support your war against Dave. By all means, have a blast at your unchristian namecalling, and quite possibly blast David for some of his erroneous beliefs or teachings, but,
I SPEAK FOR ALL MY OTHER BROTHERS WHEN I SAY: LEAVE ME, MY BROTHERS, AND MY ELDERLY MOTHER OUT OF YOUR WAR!!!!!

I have no doubt someone on this forum will doubt I am really one of Dave's brother (because it doesn't support their point of view), and I am prepared to prove it if necessary to keep you away from me and my mother, but it will be on MY terms, because I don't trust any of you that post anoymously on this website. You must have something to hide.

(....does "idiocy" run in your family???)

...and I will prove to you, that I am Malcolm Wrest, but on my OWN terms (namely that are that you piss the f*ck off with your self-righteous bullshit)...because I don't trust anyone that posts anonymously as "Aghast"..... You must have something to hide....and I suspect that what is being hidden is that you have suddenly "discovered" this forum as no doubt as your brother(realizing we would ignore his own protests) has deliberately informed you of it, in order to use to his own evil ends in that he has put you up to cry "wolf" and sow dissension by deceitfully portraying yourself as "injured" non-combatant.....you are nothing but a fraud....the "protection" of your mother is to forestall any discomfort to David, her(independently and willingly provided to Zeusor)comments might bring to him....and your a willing (or simply stupid) "pawn" in his hands.....

POST IMMEDIATELY HERE (!) the objections you have publicly made to your brother about his treatment of Annettes mother, Ashes mother, Joes' mother or even my mother....

....and in the event that you can't......just go the f*ck to hell (..your brother will kindly show you the door......)....and piss off with the divisive "hate-mongering" your brothers has bidden you spread here.....!!

Quote
apostate
I told you what I thought had been accomplished. What do you think has actually been accomplished?

Well, I did mention one example. And, really, I don't want to have to go through this whole thread just to find more examples. It's obvious that Zeuszor's 'fire' burns rather brightly and that, in itself, must weigh heavily on McKay's shoulders (something that 'we' all approve of?). I, for one, commend Zeuszor for not giving up the fight. Perhaps, he should have walked away. Perhaps we all should. That's the easy option. I mean, he doesn't, like me, have a 'genuine' reason to stay: we are not ex-members. And I wonder if that is the new division being touted here, now.

But I don't think that's fair. In fact, I think it is invaluable to have voices that are not intimately connected with McKay or the JCs. It seems that some of us here are quite brazen, perhaps to the point of utter foolishness (Brian aka Zeuszor, Malcolm and myself) because we use our own, mother-given names. Perhaps, this makes us vulnerable, but, more importantly, we're putting our names behind our words (and deeds). This fact alone is rarely acknowledge when the apologists try to break this forum by stating that we all hide behind 'usernames'. I also think that by not being shy of our identities we reveal the impotence of these so-called tyrants. They can make all the threats they like, but we can smell the bad breath behind their words.

So, what has anyone really accomplished? In my opinion, much. Without this forum none of us would have a voice.

Aghast, I take offense to your suggestion that the 'scientific method' I mentioned was intimately connected to animal suffering. Why twist my words? Do you find it piously satisfying to denigrate me? I can state now that you have revealed yourself to be a hypocrite. You harp on about our lies and hatred. Please consider carefully your own words. You make no favours for yourself by being worse than those you accuse.

Aghast, maybe I'm stupid, but most of your post didn't make a lot of sense. Please take the time to try and be clear with your intent and your grammar. Yeah, I know, I can be a bit of a Grammar Nazi...but making wild statements doesn't do your case any good. As I have stated, there are systems in place to protect your privacy, your well-being. If you consider me a threat, on any level, I'd be more than happy to meet you or your mother in person over a coffee and a light lunch. Why not also invite your infamous brother? Or should I be afraid?

Also, could you explain the photo attachment?

Oops, I just realised I goofed. I just looked at that newspaper photo from Port Orange, I should have said realised it was Rob posting, not Dale.
Not sure if Dale reads the forum, but if he does...apologies Dale. I meant to say Rob as he is closer.

Jack, the photo attachment, which I didn't notice at first, indicates the location of the brother. It was aghast's way of letting those who have researched the family know that he was genuine, without saying specifically. You will recall some Forum members asked for proof that he was a brother of Dave.

I think Rob is right to be upset and he just wants to protect his Mother. That's only natural.

Also, after all.....you can't chose all your relatives and even some that you can chose...can turn out to be a problem!

However, seriously, I am sure too that he can appreciate by now that a lot of families have been affected by his brother and feelings also run fairly strong on this forum.

I for one wish him and all the family the very best. It must be challenging for them having Dave in the family. I'd bet that everytime someone reads an newspaper article on Dave, they must bring it up with other family members.