Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
I'm being harsh here, but with good reason.....

Blackhat

Hmm....you appear to have only quoted Catherine directly without (unilke David McKay) "editing" her submissions to render them suitable for your purposes....it would seem to me, Blackhat, that you are being accurate here, with good reason...

Thank you Blackhat, for going to the trouble of bring these to the wider attention of the general public...!

Yes, thank you for bringing that to our attention, Blackhat.

And again: I have finished a draft of that factsheet. This thing is a mere two pages, and is hardly a dossier. Anybody from "over there" who wants to review it for changes and corrections, please let me know now or forever hold your peace.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 09:25AM by zeuszor.

Pass.

Just out of curiosity, was there any part of your mind that thought it might not be OK to use my words under such a username?

Quote
Blackhat
Pass.

Just out of curiosity, was there any part of your mind that thought it might not be OK to use my words under such a username?

Honestly, no. And what difference does it make?

You were going to take a look at it earlier, Blackhat. Why'd you change your mind?

I thought up that username when I recalled cultmalleus a while back wrote that the JCs are sort of the Jackass of the religious world.

[forum.culteducation.com]

So I went with that idea and further recalled the American TV show's UK equivalent was named Dirty Sanchez and that's what I chose. Seemed like a better username than Jackass. Why not? Did I offend the Semantics Police again?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 09:48AM by zeuszor.

Damn, I really ought to be studying the Ottomans and the Safavids...

Quote
apostate
By the way Jinnythesqinny did you post here under the name of "Anaglypta"?

It is interesting that this poster has the same phraseology as you, i.e. "There's generally two sides to every story" Taken from post number 3 on 08-14-2005 01:33 AM of this whole thread.

Were you working with the JC's to start this thread off?

I do not think this thread would have went the way it did if "Anaglypta" did not point the way.

Is this another "Anita Frost" plan of Dave's that was obviously a bit more successful?

Rick, can this be verified by looking at the IP number of Jinnythesquinny and Anaglypta?

If it is her it throws a fresh insight on to things. So can this be verified please?

Jinny, anaglypta, Lisa, Liverpool, Zoe. All the same person. Follow the thread; it's all there, Mal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 11:33AM by zeuszor.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Dear Zeuszor,

I'd love to have a copy of the thing, if you don't mind....Thanks for your work on this!


I have regrettably failed to acheive the exacting standard required of one, to become a trusted contributor to the xjc site however I suspect that 3.5 years membership in the formative period of the cult (Christmas 81 - May 85) does give me a little more "inside perspective" than what Blackhat would appear to give me credit me for...

....Also there is another forum of ex-members and supporters who can give you information from an inside perspective...Blackhat

...and we as all know, I'm arrogant enough to think that Kevin cannot claim to "know more" than me, hence while I will certainly listen to his views respectfully, I do not accord him any "leadership authority"....


However, I would otherwise agree with Blackhat that if you use her own comments Zeuszor, it would be more prudent to either acknowledge them (with at least the use of quotation marks if not the direct identity of the author) or to rephrase them in your own words..... if not, you are placing Blackhat in the difficult situation of being potentially held "responsible" for your own postings....a position which she may not care for!

You are certainly free to quote me verbatim, without any acknowledgement, as you wish, if I should make a remark of any nature that is useful for you......

Dear Zeuszor
I'd need some resource files on "Jim Roberts" before I could provide any feedback on the factsheet. Clearly there is a 15 year period between 1975 and 1990 when it would not be possible to draw comparison with Roberts....

It was definitely "recycled BERG" during the years I was there.....You'd have to put the cult's origins at the time David move out of the Bible Society and began his association with the COG's in my opinion (although David was obviously starting to suffer from Narcisstic Personality Disorder from his teenage years...

David intent (to organize the "franchise" of a cult of his own by cannibalizing Bergs' teachings and practices) became obvious in the few weeks that he spent under supervision of another "shepherd", and the moment he imagined that he had "what it takes" to operate his own cult...he was off!

(As you are already aware, David DID not depart due to the introduction of the practise of flirty fishing.....Cherry (at the urgings of the Church of Christ Minister) would have "disowned" him, when he had no other followers,....hence he was forced to compromise on the issue.....I personally suspect that he would have otherwise happily prostituted his wife and children, if had had other "sheep" on which to depend in order to run the cult he yearned to start....)

David has no scruples about altering what he claims he "represents" (as in point of fact HE is the "message" and any "teachings" that may justify this are quite ultimately quite unimportant in themselves), hence as you suggest...Jim Roberts may simply be another "mutation" of Davids prediliection to pilfer whatever he can from others.....there is very little, if anything, of original thought in the man's pretensions about himself...

Would you have a "Jim Roberts" resource file that I might look into....?

Dear Zeuszor,

Can you date the recruitment of "Neville"....? I remember David commenting that he and Cherry were "full time parents" for years and years and that they had to "faithfully persevere" for eight years before God "blessed" them with a disciple.

(Neville predated Ross and I, who both arrived at Tallangatta, on the same day, in Christmas of 1981.)

David would obviously date the beginning of his cult from the period he began actively recruiting, apparently eight years prior to "Neville"s arrival.

I would also comment that where you could in the factfile, you may as well be specific with locations, where you can...

We have Davids' birthday (17th December 44)....his "addresses", often represent traumatic relocations.

Obviously the Bible Society in Canberra (where he met the COG's?)....I understand that there were some "performance issues" predating his much heralded move into a tent with his family....this is the time when I suspect he personally dates the "foundation" of his empire....Was this "eight years" before Neville was recruited?

....the years as COG front man in Broken Hill.....(the supervisory position on the Aboriginal reserve out of Broken Hill fits in after this?....or before?)

From my time....there is the Tallangatta farmhouse....the Rappville property....and various Sydney addresses...(Parramatta Rd Pub in Lewisham, the Paddington Terrace, Petersham Boys Home)....the (abandoned when David had milked it for all the media attention he could)India base began operation over these years...

Subsequently we know that we also have the "Medowie Christians" period...


I would personally put a little more factual depth into the factfile...as you (I imagine?)primarily want to be able to equip families and friends with the information they need to be able so see through the various "re-inventions" that David makes of himself over the course of less than illustrious career and to for them to be able to point out to their own children (who may be potential new "recruits"), how utterly fraudulent the man is....


(In order to placate those might complain about the release of "information", however...just retain a "watered down" version to share with detractors...."factfile LITE"...in fact you might even go to the trouble to prepare a "special version" for Kevin to subsequently release....thinking he had then thwarted you....

"David John McKay first gingerly emerged from the disorientated space ship on the 17th December 1944. He was being offered as a hostage, to the locals in order to buy their co-peration in relation to the release of the space-craft, which had failed in its rescue mission to reach their compatriates, still then, being held prisoner in Area 44, New Mexico. Taken in by a kindly family from the Church of the Nazarenes, after interrogation and release, McKay soon began to exhibit disturbing signs of.."

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Zeuszor,

I'd love to have a copy of the thing, if you don't mind....Thanks for your work on this!

I have regrettably failed to acheive the exacting standard required of one, to become a trusted contributor to the xjc site however I suspect that 3.5 years membership in the formative period of the cult (Christmas 81 - May 85) does give me a little more "inside perspective" than what Blackhat would appear to give me credit me for...

....Also there is another forum of ex-members and supporters who can give you information from an inside perspective...Blackhat

...and we as all know, I'm arrogant enough to think that Kevin cannot claim to "know more" than me, hence while I will certainly listen to his views respectfully, I do not accord him any "leadership authority"....

However, I would otherwise agree with Blackhat that if you use her own comments Zeuszor, it would be more prudent to either acknowledge them (with at least the use of quotation marks if not the direct identity of the author) or to rephrase them in your own words..... if not, you are placing Blackhat in the difficult situation of being potentially held "responsible" for your own postings....a position which she may not care for!

You are certainly free to quote me verbatim, without any acknowledgement, as you wish, if I should make a remark of any nature that is useful for you......

A copy has been sent to you, Malcolm, and your comments are appreciated.

No, Blackhat is not responsible for my postings, I am, and I beg her pardon. I didn't think my cut and pasting directly was any big deal, and it's probably really not.

The XJC forum is very inwardly directed in my opinion, very cultlike; it functions as the "coddle Kevin clique" in many respects. I mean, the man needs support and therapy, and I understand that. It's just perhaps the he doesn't see it himself.

Maybe they should change the description of their forum from Dave McKay's Jesus-Christians: Free discussion between members and ex-members, supporters and observers. to Kevin's Support Group in which only those he approves of can participate, and then only on his terms.

I see Kevin as being somebody who in the situational context of his online forum behavior is re-creating the group and his position in it, and translating his position in the group into that situation. I see Blackhat and the others as very protective of him, and appreciate the reasons as to why and how that this is so.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In other words, a lot of times people who leave high control groups, (this particularly happens with people who were part of leadership in their group) still behave as if they are still in the group when interacting with others in another group situation, regardless of whether that kind of behavior is appropriate in the new situational context.

That is what I see Kevin doing; he's behaving in this situation and in this context as if he is still in his old group. He's translating his position as a leader in his old group, into that situation and it's not altogether appropriate for him to do so.

And I never said that Kevin behaves that way (as if he is still in the group) at all times and under all circumstances, but rather in the situational context of his online forum behavior. Apostate used to behave that way on the forums too, but in recent months seems to have gotten past that tendency and "moved on" with his life.

Basically, the XJCs primary goal (it seems to me), has actually been to stifle "free discussion" and shut up DM's critics.

IMO Kevin is as controlling as your father, in his own way. He is probably more like David than he is willing to admit. But he cannot help it; that's simply the introjecton expressing itself.

My impression is that Kevin is to this day telling DM what DM wants to hear, so that he can be seen as opposing and not supporting we here at RR, and thereby get into his father's good graces.

I resent Kevin because he is apparently not out to stop the JCs at all, and seeks to thwart those who are trying to stop the JCs.
And that's a good thing?

It seems that he is trying to regulate the forum environments and/or the participants in them, in order to influence the outcome of the situation and/or particular individuals' behaviors, to his own ends.

He is basically IMO replicating community conditions in denying one's right to disagree, speak an opposing viewpoint, or freely express a divergent opinion at all. He writes, in effect, that we here at RR are the REAL cult, and that I am the real cult leader, every bit as sick and evil as his father.

That is ludicrous.

Do you want to know the reason why I think that nobody ever posts much at JCSXJCS other than Kevin and his buddies? Because they're always trying to regulate who gets to say what and how and all that. He's still (unconsciously) trying to be the leaders of his own group/community.

Nobody, especially those coming out of a group like the JCs, wants to deal with the Semantics Police. That's what I think. You are all basically trying to tell the participants here what they are and are not allowed to say and how they are and are not allowed to say it and who needs that? I know I don't.

So in conclusion, once again: if you do not want me to participate writing about Kevin, then do not mention my name, in a disparaging way or otherwise. If you do so, then I will feel compelled to reply. I have the right to defend myself false accusations and unfair descriptions, and cannot reply there.

Fair enough?

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Zeuszor
I'd need some resource files on "Jim Roberts" before I could provide any feedback on the factsheet. Clearly there is a 15 year period between 1975 and 1990 when it would not be possible to draw comparison with Roberts....

It was definitely "recycled BERG" during the years I was there.....You'd have to put the cult's origins at the time David move out of the Bible Society and began his association with the COG's in my opinion (although David was obviously starting to suffer from Narcisstic Personality Disorder from his teenage years...

David intent (to organize the "franchise" of a cult of his own by cannibalizing Bergs' teachings and practices) became obvious in the few weeks that he spent under supervision of another "shepherd", and the moment he imagined that he had "what it takes" to operate his own cult...he was off!

(As you are already aware, David DID not depart due to the introduction of the practise of flirty fishing.....Cherry (at the urgings of the Church of Christ Minister) would have "disowned" him, when he had no other followers,....hence he was forced to compromise on the issue.....I personally suspect that he would have otherwise happily prostituted his wife and children, if had had other "sheep" on which to depend in order to run the cult he yearned to start....)

David has no scruples about altering what he claims he "represents" (as in point of fact HE is the "message" and any "teachings" that may justify this are quite ultimately quite unimportant in themselves), hence as you suggest...Jim Roberts may simply be another "mutation" of Davids prediliection to pilfer whatever he can from others.....there is very little, if anything, of original thought in the man's pretensions about himself...

Would you have a "Jim Roberts" resource file that I might look into....?

No, I personally have no file on the Roberts group to share with you, but there is already ample information on them available online. By contrast, there was not a lot of detailed information on the Jesus Christians available online in the public domain, until I put it there. Not to sound arrogant, but it's true. There has been a lot of info on the Roberts group out there since 1998 or so.

[www.google.com]

It's hard to pin down a date at which the JCs were "founded." Technically, the group has been called the Jesus Christians since 1998, but the McKay Family had been operating in Australia since the mid-seventies, so if I had to give a date in which DM started gathering disciples and forming a group of his own, I'd say that that started happening in approximately the spring/summer of 1975, when DM was introduced to the COG in Broken Hill.

During his time in Broken Hill it was said that McKay was still a good friend of the Children of God, and members came to his house and stayed with his family.

It is believed that while living in Broken Hill, McKay was also involved with the Broken Hill Church of Christ and that the elders there were concerned about McKay’s involvement with the Children of God.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 10:54PM by zeuszor.

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Zeuszor,

Can you date the recruitment of "Neville"....? I remember David commenting that he and Cherry were "full time parents" for years and years and that they had to "faithfully persevere" for eight years before God "blessed" them with a disciple.

(Neville predated Ross and I, who both arrived at Tallangatta, on the same day, in Christmas of 1981.)

David would obviously date the beginning of his cult from the period he began actively recruiting, apparently eight years prior to "Neville"s arrival.

I would also comment that where you could in the factfile, you may as well be specific with locations, where you can...

We have Davids' birthday (17th December 44)....his "addresses", often represent traumatic relocations.

Obviously the Bible Society in Canberra (where he met the COG's?)....I understand that there were some "performance issues" predating his much heralded move into a tent with his family....this is the time when I suspect he personally dates the "foundation" of his empire....Was this "eight years" before Neville was recruited?

....the years as COG front man in Broken Hill.....(the supervisory position on the Aboriginal reserve out of Broken Hill fits in after this?....or before?)

From my time....there is the Tallangatta farmhouse....the Rappville property....and various Sydney addresses...(Parramatta Rd Pub in Lewisham, the Paddington Terrace, Petersham Boys Home)....the (abandoned when David had milked it for all the media attention he could)India base began operation over these years...

Subsequently we know that we also have the "Medowie Christians" period...


I would personally put a little more factual depth into the factfile...as you (I imagine?)primarily want to be able to equip families and friends with the information they need to be able so see through the various "re-inventions" that David makes of himself over the course of less than illustrious career and to for them to be able to point out to their own children (who may be potential new "recruits"), how utterly fraudulent the man is....


(In order to placate those might complain about the release of "information", however...just retain a "watered down" version to share with detractors...."factfile LITE"...in fact you might even go to the trouble to prepare a "special version" for Kevin to subsequently release....thinking he had then thwarted you....

"David John McKay first gingerly emerged from the disorientated space ship on the 17th December 1944. He was being offered as a hostage, to the locals in order to buy their co-peration in relation to the release of the space-craft, which had failed in its rescue mission to reach their compatriates, still then, being held prisoner in Area 44, New Mexico. Taken in by a kindly family from the Church of the Nazarenes, after interrogation and release, McKay soon began to exhibit disturbing signs of.."

Kevin has been described to me by people who know him as "prickly" on the outside, and hard to work with, but with a good heart. He is still coping with the exposure he's had all his life. It must never leav him for a moment, and I sympathize. All that life must be burnt into him. I can see it. Imagine: years, all your life being indoctrinated against normal life, and suddenly finding yourself thrust into it. Huge mental adjustments, massive psychological trauma...I understand. I'm still not going to stop working against the cult, though.

Hmm, Neville. Let me see here.

According to my records, Neville W. was a member in 1983. He left during the Rappville era when DM decided to “purge” the community, in a fashion very similar to what occurred in 1998. About half a dozen members (Neville, his partner Trish, Troy, David and an epileptic man(also named David?)), left in one of the vehicles to go it on their own without McKay’s overbearing direction. They eventually split up and went their separate ways.

Is this accurate, Mal?

Any corrections, clarifications or embellishments you'd like to make to the factsheet I sent you, please do so and then send it back. After all, you were there, and I was not. Have you the time? But I want it to be just two pages of essential information, max, brief but thorough.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2010 11:01PM by zeuszor.