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zeuszor
http://welikejesus.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

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But a better example is paedophilia. Kids are not FORCED to have sex, and yet society says it is wrong. I know, I know, they are not adults. But you see, we each have our restrictions that we think makes it wrong or doesn't make it wrong. And so what we decided to experiment with is just trying to follow the rules as we honestly and humbly think God wrote them.

Here McKay (leader of the Jesus Christians) is saying that pedophilia does not involve force, and is trying to use this principle as an example of why it's OK for members of his cult to attempt to recruit minors. This guy is getting more and more and more demented.

XXX

Here are Dave's latest comments on his forum. As you can see, his persecution complex is flaring up big-time. Dave McKay confuses criticism with “persecution” and thrives on it. We have always found that to expose Dave it is best to be controlled in how we do it as he uses outbursts to provide evidence to his followers that we are all a bunch a raving loony's frothing at the mouth with hatred for him. This man believes that he is one of the Two Witnesses and loves being “persecuted.” This is probably the most potentially volatile cult out there. Here are some more demented quotes (carefully organized into one large email this time; sorry guys about the annoyance yesterday; I didn’t realize. This time is was necessary for me to split them up like this).


QUOTE:
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:13 am Post subject:

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The latest (ironic) news from the Rick Ross forum is that Brian (hardly our best friend over there) is being attacked from several different sides at once for posting Bible verses on the thread about the Jesus Christians. Some of them are being very pointed that they don't want any Bible verses put up there, that even if Brian thinks there is something in the verse that can be used as ammunition against us, he has to point it out for them, explain it very simply, because they have no interest in the Bible EXCEPT as it can be used to hurt us, and even then, they aren't able to see the point he is trying to make unless he gets very specific about leading them step by step through what it means.

Poor ole Brian is being forced to throw his Bible away before he will be allowed to be part of their club. I guess that since they have all thrown Jesus away already, it's not all that hard to trash the Bible as well

Nice group, eh?
END QUOTE


Dave


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 870
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

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This has gone on long enough. I am bailing out here.

Isn't it interesting how snipers always bail out just after they've sprayed everyone with gunfire?

Quote:
It certainly aint worth the lost sleep and compulsive investigating you spend looking for something to expose.


Kev, your last two posts were made at 3am Australian time. Who's losing sleep and getting compulsive?

Quote:
I see Tony every couple of months and have never claimed otherwise.


Those of us who know you best, Kevin, can see through your dishonesty. In this modern age you don't need to see someone to be emailing them several times a day, or phoning them equally as often. You rather obviously left that out of your rebuttal to my claims that you and Tony are working together on this campaign. As for whether or not it is a campaign, Tony went online at Rick's forum and announced that we have something planned up close for Dave. You have been exhibit A in Tony's campaign almost from the start, and still you pretend that he did all of this without your knowledge. Bullshit, Kevin.

Quote:
Your argument against the role of force in pedophilia and saying it and homosexuality are immoral because the Bible says so, seemed to either decriminalise pedophilia, or criminalise homosexuality.


I don't think anyone has any easy solution, but if I had my way, paedophiles would all be required to live in a humane environment away from all contact with children for the rest of their lives, with the emphasis on humane (i.e. NOT a prison). Yes, in a way, it is a suggestion that homosexuality should be decriminalised, and dealt with in a different way. (I hate to think what is going to be made of THAT shocking admission )

Quote:
My concern was that in the forum debate and the real life drama Dave seemed more interested in the academic challenge of accommodating the pedophile (as they have with non practicing homosexuality) than in defending the boundaries which should protect children.


So are you advocating that homosexuality should be criminalised? or maybe even that non-practicing homosexuals should be locked up? Yes, we have a non-practicing homosexual living with us, and yes, we experimented for a while with a supposedly non-practicing pedophile living with us. Academic challenges are part of finding real solutions to real problems, whereas YOUR challenges don't seem to produce anything positive.

Quote:
Dave took such a heavy approach in sending Bruce back to Australia, handing him over to Federal Police, and in persuading him to confess everything to the courts, that I actually felt guilty for the heavy sentence he received.

You're a strange one, Kevin. Thanks for the apology about saying that most parents were not informed. I don't think you made it clear, however, that NO parents were not informed.

But why is it that YOU feel guilty for something that I did. Weird.

You see, when leaders make decisions, they always need to find the fine line between being too harsh and being too soft. It means considering all possibilities and listening to counsel.

You have revealed that in our discussions about how to deal with Bruce I raised the possibility of not telling everyone about Bruce's background. You also revealed that Cherry and you thought others SHOULD be told. What you were not so upfront about was that I ACCEPTED your counsel.

If there is any one consistent grievance that bitter ex-members make against me (and which, conveniently, can never be proven conclusively one way or the other by people who have not lived in the community), it is that I dominate all decisions, and that people are not free to disagree. But those of us who were around up until the time that you left know that almost on a daily basis (and often SEVERAL times a day) you objected to suggestions that I would make, and at least half of the time, the suggestion was altered to go your way.

Quote:
Bruce’s contact with the community was spread out over a number of years.


And could that number have been one or two? And how much of that time did he LIVE with us? And how much of that time did we know that he was a pedophile. Boy, you sure can distort the truth

Quote:
I recall a family feeling imposed upon and compelled to suspend their intentions to care for children and several people feeling uneasy with the way Bruce followed a young child around.


That family was a COUPLE, Kevin (no children). And what does compelled mean? The community made a decision democratically, and it led to them suspending (temporarily) their intentions about fostering a child. Are you saying this to resurrect your claim that I did something unfair and underhanded against families in the community? And you say several people felt uneasy with the way Bruce followed a young child around. Of course we did There was a LOT of unease about having him there. But the decision was made fairly and democratically, and you were a contributor to it. Stop ruining a good apology with more effort to paint a nasty picture.

Quote:
Complete strangers know of the relationship breakdown between us because YOU tell them. Its in your writings, on your website.


The best that can be gleaned from reading our website is that there was a major split in the community in 1998 (and even then, I think it is a restricted article). So don't accuse me of making a public scandal out of your behaviour. The point is that I am accusing you of feeding information to a LOT of people, but particularly Tony and Brian, and that information provided by YOU has been used on Rick Ross' website. You were careful to keep your name out of it, but that was all. The idea was to embarrass and humiliate me, which you and Tony and Brian did extremely well.

Just two days ago, Brian listed a bunch of verses about me not being a fit leader because I cannot control my own family, forgetting that you were 33 years old when you left, and that you are over 40 now. I have certainly not been proud of the fact that you and your siblings have used your children as bargaining tools in your war against Cherry and me. So if I have been guilty of any deception in my life, it has been my attempt, even on the Rick Ross forum, to cover that up, by straight out accusing Brian of lying; which is when he revealed his source, apologising to you for doing it.

I wrote of you: Quote:
Surely he knows about Rick Ross... but maybe not.


You wrote in reply: Quote:
you are about to hang me on forgetting a name that I may or may not have heard


And you say that *I* have a persecution complex?
END QUOTE

Here Dave is engaged in an exchange with his son, from whom he has been estranged since 1998. Their estrangement is described here:

[www.accsoft.com.au]

As you can see, he has absolutely no sense of accountability and no idea of the pain and suffering he has been responsible for bringing into the lives of others, especially his own children. He is becoming more and more obsessed with all of this “persecution” (which is really an expression of public outrage for the “trial” and whipping in Long Beach) and more and more obsessed with his impending “martyrdom”. THIS MAN MUST BE STOPPED. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE.
XXX

see [www.abc.net.au]

I got this from this URL:

[welikejesus.com]

David Rutledge: If we look at the practice that some Jesus Christians have made of kidney donation: last year, when the law in NSW said that you’re not allowed to make a kidney donation to a stranger, members of the Jesus Christians who wanted to donate a kidney lied to health authorities, and led them to believe that they had long-term relationships with prospective recipients when they actually didn’t. What did you think of that? Did you approve of that?

Dave McKay: Definitely. Every decision we make, we have to measure the means up against the ends. Tell a lie, save a life. That’s the means and that’s the end. Now, 'have sex with somebody to get a new member', that’s another means and end. And so we have to weigh each one up individually.

David Rutledge: But the Jesus Christians community isn’t just anybody, this is a small group - I would say a vulnerable group - who have this sort of cult baggage around them, that I assume you’d like to get rid of. And to that end, wouldn’t complete openness and transparency be an advantage?

Dave McKay: It was open. We were the ones that went and publicly told the media we'd told a lie. Our teaching is: if you must tell a lie, be honest about your dishonesty.

David Rutledge: Dave McKay, leader of the Jesus Christians movement

So, it's OK to lie when the end justifies the means, Dave?

XXX

The Overall Scenario

The scope of this book does not allow us to cover all of the details that fit together to make up the big picture of what is about to come to pass in the world in the next few years. There certainly is room for disagreement on some of the details, since they are all based on interpretations of Bible prophecies. However, in this chapter we will give you a rough outline of some of the things that we expect (Many of them have already begun.) and then proceed to explain specifically how some of the conclusions have been reached.

As for whether anything dramatic is going to happen when the calendar ticks over to the year 2000, we can say with relative certainty that nothing will happen at that time that is any more significant than the sort of things that are happening now and that will continue to happen after January 1, 2000.

It appears that there will be problems with computers, and Sydney will be gearing up for the Olympics, but that's based only on what we read in the newspapers, and not on anything we read in the Bible. We'll say it again: There is nothing in Bible prophecy to support the theory that the year 2000 marks the end of the world.

But don't be too surprised if the end comes just a few years after the start of the new millennium. It has nothing to do with the calendar, but plenty to do with developments in world politics, and especially with developments in world banking.

Here is the picture as we see it.

There will be more earthquakes, more epidemics, and more famines. An increase in wars, and more problems with the world economy, will lead to drastic changes in both government and banking.

Russia will more or less rise from the dead and turn on America, virtually destroying it in a surprise military strike over the North Pole. Russia will, as a result, gain control of the United Nations, and use it to set up a world empire. An extremely popular man will lead this movement. He will usher in a time of world peace and prosperity.

The world's banking system will be totally transformed, with computer scans eventually controlling all business transactions. People will do all of their buying and selling through a microchip implant on the back of their hands. (Amputees will be able to get an implant put on their forehead.) This implant will virtually eliminate the need for paper money.

The changes, both in government and in economics, will bring great benefits to most of the earth's population. This will further increase the power and popularity of the world leader.

The Jews will rebuild their Temple in Jerusalem, and resume animal sacrifices. There will be, for a while, greater religious tolerance than ever before. Only the most rabid fanatics will oppose the changes. Amongst opponents will be a small group of Christians who will argue that it is all a mask for something unbelievably evil.

This group of Christians will try to tell the world that the popular leader is actually the Son of Satan in much the same way that Jesus is the Son of God. They will also warn that a global disaster is about to strike the earth. They will warn of an asteroid (or possibly nuclear satellites) crashing into the earth and poisoning much of the earth's water supplies, killing life in the oceans, and destroying much of the world's vegetation. Millions will be killed as a result of this disaster.

About the time that the disaster takes place, the world leader will begin a campaign against the fanatics, possibly accusing them of playing some part in causing the disaster that has struck the earth. The leader will order that all forms of worship be abolished and that he alone be worshipped as god. Anyone who refuses to worship him will be arrested and executed. This program of systematic persecution against all who believe in God will result in the deaths of more people than have ever been slain by any world leader in history, including Hitler and Stalin.

Two spokespersons for the fanatics will repeatedly elude capture at the same time that they succeed in getting the world to hear their message of warning. A worldwide manhunt will eventually track them down, and their execution will be televised around the world. Their bodies will be displayed in public for three days.

And then Jesus Christ will return to earth.

The two people who were executed will suddenly come to life, as will thousands of others who were killed for their faith in Jesus Christ. They will all be given new bodies that are not subject to gravity as people are now. All of these people, plus those who are alive and who have refused to worship the world leader or to allow a microchip implant on their bodies, will be able to float up to meet Jesus in the sky. This amazing escape will be documented with television coverage around the world. All those who are drawn together in this way will disappear into another dimension, possibly into some kind of a huge starship, where they will celebrate their deliverance. At the same time, new problems will confront those left on earth.

More disasters will strike the earth over the next few weeks, causing suffering for billions of people. Those left on the earth will continue to put the blame on the departed fanatics, and will become convinced that they are dangerous aliens from another world. All the armies of the earth will be drawn together to challenge the aliens, as a show-down looms over Israel.

When those who disappeared have finished their celebrations in their refuge in the skies, they will swoop down on earth behind their leader, Jesus. The weapons amassed in the valley of Megiddo, in Israel, will be no match for them. This is the famous Battle of Armageddon, and it will be totally one sided. Those mortals who mistakenly thought they could fight God, will be wiped out. The victorious army will be fully occupied for months just burying all of the bodies and disposing of the ruined weapons.

Then Jesus and his supernatural army will set about rebuilding the earth with the few survivors that remain. The Devil will be bound by God, so that evil will no longer triumph on earth. Whereas all past governments had been corrupt and cruel, and had appealed to people's greed, the forces for good will triumph in this new world.

Jesus will begin a reign of a thousand years on earth, in which he and his supernatural followers will seek to educate the inhabitants of this planet in the ways of God. The earth's mortal population will increase during that period of time.

At the end of the thousand years, the devil will be loosed once again, to see if the people of the repopulated earth have learned how to resist his lies and deceptions. But enough for now. That's another story.

Obviously all of this must sound a bit far-fetched for most readers. There are probably details which we haven't gotten exactly right. But anyone who has studied Bible prophecy at all would have to agree that the overall picture is pretty accurate. In the chapters that follow we will attempt to lead you through some of the steps in how we arrived at these conclusions, including a timetable that you can use to actually count down the final seven years before Armageddon.




Does he actually believe that he is one of the two witnesses and that he will one day help rule and reign over the earth with the Virgin Army? Does he really believe that a starship will take them to heaven and that they'll one day be watching the Marraige Supper of the Lamb on huge big-screen TV's (The aliens angels explain how the New Jerusalem has been hidden in a secret dimension all this time, and how when the great marriage of God to the Church takes place everyone in New Jerusalem will be able to watch it on big screens) What?

XXX

This one criticses the concept of tolerating other points of view


The Virgin Army, part 3

(August, 1998)

I should address some problems relating to the 144K vision. I am particularly concerned that people may think we need to tolerate other points of view within our own fellowship which do not support the 144K vision; or that celibacy is not necessarily the preferred option, and the ideal toward which we should all be aiming.

If people start thinking this way, then it is quite likely that such people would only stay with the community until such time as they are able to find a wife anyway, and then they would leave... not because we would kick them out, but because they simply would not feel comfortable within the community, even though it may be more comfortable for them to stick around at the moment.

We have seen it happen too many times in the past to think otherwise. Just take a careful look through the ranks of all those couples who have left us and tell me how many husbands are really wearing the pants in those families. You cannot be free to follow the Lamb withersoever he goes if you are busy trying to follow your wife withersoever she goes. As soon as such men have the power that comes with having a disciple of their own (i.e. a wife), they shoot through. The only couples who have stayed on in our fellowship are ones who are not baulking at the 144K vision even though it puts us married people down as being second-class Christians.

We should be clear about what the standard is, and also be clear about our opposition to anyone teaching otherwise, whether publicly or privately. Celibacy is the ideal.

Marriage is an option; but it is an inferior option. If anyone doesn't like it, they can leave now. I am serious about this. I am prepared to go right down to the last two people remaining in the community with this issue in order to keep only those people around who are 100% red-hot sold out warriors for God. My goodness, we have taught from our earliest days that we must forsake all , right down to the point of laying down our lives for Christ and for each other; and yet every time it starts to get even close to costing us something far less than this, people seem to think that we have gone off some deep end and they panic or leave.

As one ex-member put it, he felt that, despite what people say, each person in the community has what he had, which he called a secret contract . His contract definitely did not involve laying down his life for anyone. In fact, for him, it did not even include anything so hard as distributing tracts in the Sydney CBD. For others, their secret contracts did not include being criticised publicly, or staying single, or cutting their hair, or standing up to their wives, or disciplining their kids. When you look at it, we are only kidding ourselves that we are ready to lay down our lives for God and for one another if we let these little things stop us. These people did not even come CLOSE to the commitment that Jesus requires of his followers, and we are better off without them.

So where is the line being drawn on your secret contract at the moment? The 144K vision is that even if we are not 100% ourselves, we are going to teach it and strive toward it until the day that we die. I hope that at least some of us have that as our contract, both secretly and publicly.

Now for the subject of marriage. Lest people think that I am forbidding marriage here, let me explain. For starters, you will always have your free will. Just as you can leave the community at any time, so you can also get married at any time. I don't think I have ever said that we would kick a person out for getting married. After all, I am married myself. But we will still insist that the marriage must be second to the work of the kingdom, and there will be times, as your commanding officers, that we will require you to do things which will force you away from the selfish comforts of your marriage relationship. If the marriage relationship stops you from being able to perform your duties as a soldier, you will not be kicked out for being married; but you may be kicked out for not being able to perform your duties.

Much the same can be said for having children. We do not forbid it, but we will make demands that will jeopardise your sovereignty over your children, and it will take a very strong commitment to the 144K vision for people to submit to those demands. If you do submit, I believe that you will be much happier for it. And if your partner and/or children submit to those demands, then they too will be much happier for it.

This 144K vision is an important one, and it is definitely not optional. If people are to be a part of an auxiliary of some sort, it will only be on the terms that the auxiliary totally supports the aims of the army, and not that the auxiliary represents some sort of an opposing army. It must be the aim of the auxiliary to recruit people for the army, rather than recruiting people for the auxiliary.

Someone saw a vision of a very big ring on a pointing finger. I think the size of the ring indicates our need to emphasise our marriage to Jesus very clearly... to draw people's attention to it... to harp on it until people accept it or get out. A very large stone on an engagement ring is intended to draw people's attention to the fact that the person wearing it is engaged. And we want the biggest stone possible on our engagement ring to Christ. The fact that the ring was on the pointing finger is because this vision is what will point us to Christ, to heaven, and to the Virgin Army.

As I said before, we won't stop someone from getting married. But Paul warned about the distractions of a young widow who might join the community to look for a husband (I Timothy 5:11-14), and he suggested that such people should go ahead and get married if that's what they want, and then go live on their own. I think this could have relevance with regard to single men who are looking for wives as well as for single women. Paul saw this as a distraction to everyone else in the army. At least for now, the singles need to declare their intentions. How far are you single guys prepared to go in making it clear that you want to be married to Christ?

We have made allowances for married couples to stay on in the community; but the success rate is very low. And the reason is the Jezebel spirit. The wives are not evil in themselves, nor are the children. But the Jezebel spirit uses them both to tear us away from being totally sold out to God. God is a jealous God, and he will not have that.

Jezebel, go to hell And let's follow the Lamb wherever he goes

XXX

This one talks about his thought policing of cult members in his group


Keeping the 144K Vision

(18 September, 2002)

I've been thinking for some time about the 144K vision, and the need to do something to help people who are struggling with it.

What I have arrived at, however, is that we do not really need to have more written on the subject, but we do probably need to do more sharing about it with one another. The reason I say that is because I think what happens when people start to lose the vision is just that the devil has gotten in and clouded our thinking about how simple the vision really is. He makes us think that the 144K vision is something that it is not... that it is, in fact, a bit unreasonable.

I think that most of you are smart enough and informed enough that if you just sat down yourselves and tried to write something on the topic, or if you started to share with one another about exactly what the 144K vision is, you would find your percentages picking up almost automatically.

In other words, it isn't so much a matter of our commitment to the vision that is fading as it is our understanding of the vision that is fading.

One problem is that we just talk each week in terms of What is your 144K percentage? It is almost like asking, How horny are you? And, without thinking things through clearly, people pull a figure out of the air. I have mentioned how some people can pick a very high figure without recognising their limitations; but they can also pick a very low figure without recognising how easy it is to maintain a higher percentage.

If we allow ourselves to get into the system mindset, which is that everyone is more or less entitled to a lifetime of sexual activity with one or more sexual partners, then the idea of a lifetime without sexual activity sounds like an almost impossible sacrifice.

On the other hand, the true 144K vision does not eliminate all sexual activity (i.e. It does not eliminate masturbation.) but it does take a very long, hard, cold look at exactly what sexual activity with a partner involves. Obviously, someone who is masturbating could easily think that it would be great to have the real thing. If that was the only concern, then the answer would, of course, be yes . If you can find a sexual partner, then do so. It's more fun.
But from the Christian perspective, even if we did have the real thing , it would involve some overwhelming sacrifices and disciplines that do not often enter our heads when we are just thinking about all of the cuddlies that we are missing. That is the deceptive power of the cuddlies. That is the real Jezebel spirit.

Maybe we need to do an article on the pricklies (no pun intended ) or something like that, which reminds us of all the discomforts that come with a married commitment. There is the lack of freedom because you are tied to someone else ( for better or for worse ) for the rest of your life. There is the pain that comes when the other person does not live up to your expectations. There is the heartbreak that comes if the other person backslides (in which case you lose your freedom to ever consider marriage again). And, of course, there are the restrictions on your usefulness for God, possibly even meaning disqualification from the Virgin Army (although we are not certain that we know what that means).

Of course, knowing that marriage is not forbidden should actually make it easier to maintain the 144K vision too. (Think how much harder it must be for a divorcee, for whom remarriage IS forbidden ) At least while you remain single, your options stay open. Once you are married, there is no turning back.

It does seem to me like any sincere Christian, with any understanding of what the Bible (and what Jesus in particular) says about the advisability of remaining single, who then says that they are totally indifferent to whether they stay married or single (i.e. that they have a 50% burden for the 144K vision) or who is actively seeking to get married (i.e. that they have a burden below 50% for the 144K vision) must not have really thought the issues through. It's almost like saying that I am indifferent to using drugs, or that I am actively looking for opportunities to use drugs. I know that the drugs are not immoral in themselves; but why on earth should I be indifferent to something that I know is not going to be good for me?

An ex-member left the community when his wife left. But while in the community, he never registered himself as having anything more than a 50% burden for the 144K vision. Because he never braced himself for being single, he failed when she failed.

Likewise, I wonder about marrieds who choose to ignore the scripture about it being time for those who are married to be as though they were not. (I Corinthians 7:29) We may not all come to the same conclusion about how to apply that passage, but to ignore it altogether seems strange for anyone who is sincere.

A similar problem happens with regard to Bible prophecy in general. We are almost certainly wrong in some of our expectations with regard to how it is all going to be fulfilled. But the answer is not to ignore Bible prophecy altogether, as so many have done. And yet almost everyone who backslides from the group does so by first allowing doubts to creep in with regard to our thinking about Bible prophecy and the 144K vision. Before long, they are completely turned off to anything that has to do with Bible prophecy and the 144K vision.

Their thinking is that, because we do not know everything about those two subjects, then we are entitled to ignore them altogether. Wrong

There is room for opinions with regard to some of the details, but there is not room for tossing either issue (celibacy or Bible prophecy) out. Yet it is so easy to start thinking that way when we let the devil come in and cloud the issues. It is one of the easiest areas of deception that he has, where he lures you into a more respectable approach to marriage and the second coming, and then leads you, step by step, away from any discipline at all that you find irritating or inconvenient.

I have ended up writing an article here, but I hope that people will not just read it and forget it. I hope that it will spark discussion and thought amongst yourselves about what the 144K vision really is... not discussion about anything new or complicated or bizarre, but discussion about how simple the vision is, i.e. that, of the two choices, married or single, the preferred option is to remain single.

XXX

[www.accsoft.com.au]

XXX

Dave is discussing whether he would kill for Christ on this thread

[welikejesus.com]

XXX

There is no contradiction between me talking about killing someone to save someone else's life, and other members saying that they would strongly question any interpretation of the teachings of Jesus that said we should kill our enemies rather than love and forgive them.

Source: [welikejesus.com] (accessed 30 December 2006)


In light of the previous two quotes from David McKay he has audacity to throw out a challenge.

Now we challenge anyone to show us someone who is more serious about teaching people to obey Jesus than we are ... Dave.

Pain seems to be the most humane and speedy form of human punishment. We could whip them strongly, without doing any damage to their teeth, brain, or spine. And it would all be over in just a few minutes.

SOURCE: [cust.idl.net.au] (accessed 29 Dec. 2006)

XXX

Here Dave tells a mother whose child was being touched inappropriately within the group that she is being over sensitive .

[welikejesus.com]