Stoic, i think you are right that everyone gets to make their own choices, but i for one believe in hope.And Joes' family seem to also, or they would not have continued communicating with their son in what seemed to me to be a very painful way ,over a public internet board, with various people, some who were no doubt complete strangers, making criticisms and comments.
In actual fact, most people eventually leave groups, some after many years. Sometimes because of ill health, sometimes they are kicked out, sometimes they choose to leave. Occasionally the group dissolves, as happened for example with Janya Lalichs' cult political group.
Caring about anything or anyone can often be painful, particularly if you worry about the choices they are making.
and everyone has to decide for themselves what they can deal with in their own particular situation.
However for some group members, knowing that there is someone outside the group who cares about them and will help them can make all the difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2010 11:31AM by yasmin.

I have hope for Joe and the other members-- away from Davejc's controlling hand they may begin to find themselves again, Malcolm is an example of someone who has done that.

I think the point I was trying to make is that each person is an individual and responds differently, as is their right, and that the ususally accepted psychological explanations simply do not easily fit such complex situations. I always found it immensely demeaning and dismissive when a professional provided a pat and ready explanation for something which defies such a simple translation into words.
I always felt that I was being attacked as the experience that the professional was claiming to understand in such facile words was an indelible formative part of me--I might hate it but I didn't allow outsiders to judge it/me in the same way.
On the other hand, with someone who had gone through a very similar experience of extended personal trial, no explanations were adequate or necessary.

I think that things have moved on in the helping professions since my time and that there is now a much greater understanding of such experience and sensitivity shown to the person.
So, I think there is much to hope for now that the JC's have some space to possibly reconsider their allegiance to Davejc, and that the Johnson family, who have unavoidably learned patience in the last few years, have reason to hope also that their patience and constancy will have some good result. Joe is a smart person, at some point that will begin working for him and not for Davejc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2010 05:14PM by Stoic.

Message to Dave:

I have read your report of what Kevin said, and I have replied to what Kevin said on the X site. Please read that.

I am not about to become a Jesus Christian apologist here, but I also had trouble with Kevin misrepresenting what you said regarding a willingness for mediation on the X site, and have said so.

The gulf is clearly wide, but honesty and truthfulness are important if there is to be any progress. That applies to posters on all three sites, including myself.

Moderator, you said:

Quote

If McKay wants to send a genuine message of "hope" he should send Joe Johnson back to his family. And then cut all communication between himself and/or anyone associated with his group and Joe Johnson.

That would be a meaningful first step in actually demonstrating that he wants to "make some progress."

Anything less than this can be seen as simply a strategy of rhetoric employed by McKay to manipulate people for his own purposes.

Now when I first read that, I thought, "How can Dave return Joe when all his members have left him?"

But you don't think so, so I left it alone.

But I thought about it, and I wondered about if Joe is "free of Dave", and Dave has no control over him any more?

How can Dave deliver Joe to his parents if Joe has freed himself of Dave?

Blackhat:

Yes, I don't think Dave McKay has let go of Joe Johnson.

I don't believe the spin.

IMO--Dave continues to control Joe Johnson.

Regarding further dialog with Dave McKay.

Again, a test as the whether or not McKay himself has actually changed or even wants to change in any meaningful way, would be to ask him the following:

What do you think that you have done wrong?

Name three things very specifically that you have done wrong regarding the JCs.

How do you think you need to change your behavior and attitude?

Name three things you want to change about yourself in an effort to improve your behavior and attitude.

Would you consider counseling sessions with a mental health professional to assist you in reaching stated goals regarding your behavior and attitude?

Would you consider counseling from a member of the Christian clergy to review whatever teachings you have promoted, which have been questioned and/or criticized as inconsistent with the bilble?

Would you consider family counseling, which would include your wife and children, with a marriage and family therapist?

What date would you be prepared to begin such counseling?

Of course I don't expect McKay to do and/or meaningfully commit to any of these things.

His strategy now seems to be spin, spin and more spin and wait to see who he can suck in.

A rhyme to remember.

A rhyme to remember indeed; DM's mantra as it were.

"Deflect, distort, derail, distract, disrupt, divide, destroy."

"Spin spin spin spin spin."

[www.youtube.com]

Quote
zeuszor
Someday soon, maybe tomorrow, I am going to look through a collection of old copies of New Day News going back to the '70s. Maybe if the stars are in an auspicious alignment I'll find a copy of the very NDN that so-and-so mentioned the other day. Wouldn't it be cool if I found an old NDN with the McKays featured in it? We'll see! I'll let all of you know.

That will have to wait until next year. Soon enough though, soon enough...

"Yes, I don't think Dave McKay has let go of Joe Johnson."

Thank you moderator, but my question was, has Joe Johnson let go of McKay? And maybe this does not include contact with his parents?

Just a thought.....

Blackhat:

You are now postulating a question based upon an assumption, i.e. that the group dynamic has actually changed.

I don't see that assumption as either valid or compelling.

A better question would be, when will McKay really let go of his followers?

And that doesn't appear to have happened yet, based upon any objective evidence.

Attempting to somehow shift the focus from McKay to Joe Johnson doesn't make much sense or serve any useful purpose.

With respect, moderator.

Nobody is posting on the Jesus Christian web site who were members of the Jesus Christians, apart from Dave. This is in direct contrast to how things were before the site was suddenly locked.

The Takatifu Gardens web site advises a change of management.

There have been unsubstantiated reports that the Jesus Christians have disbanded.