Quote
zeuszor
sWord, maybe you can help us to understand how and why it is, that it seems like certain misinformation about DM's past and the history of the cult seems to get published from time to time on the forum that you own?

Yes, I'm certain I can help you understand that.

By "certain misinformation" I assume you are implying that there is a discrepancy between the recollections from 3 or 4 decades ago of a certain
individual "K", and the information recently uncovered by a PI.

I can only give you a parallel from my own life. In 1974 a friend, Owen, and I rented a house in Lane Cove, with the intention of subletting rooms to
students. Before we moved in I got a casual job interstate. After 6 months, as I had not actually lived in the house, I informed the landlord, and Owen then
became the sole lessee. A series of students sublet rooms.

As I had no idea how long the high-paying casual work would last, I kept my office-space in North Sydney, where I received correspondence-lessons from the
Dept. of Education in Sydney, to mark. My mother picked up the mail and once a week posted it to me in Queensland where I marked it and sent it back.
The Department never noticed that I returned the lessons from Queensland.

After 18 months my job in Queensland came to an end. I returned to Sydney and stayed for some time in the house I had previously rented with Owen. I
remember some of the students there at the time. There were Niels and Rosa, who I'm sure will remember me.

If PI were to look into my life at the time, he could discover from the rental records (perhaps) that I was a registered tenant at 38 King William St. Lane
Cove, from July to December 1974. However, if he came across Niels he would learn that I lived in the house around January 1976. He'd be certain of it as
he'd recall that I helped organise his 21st birthday party.

There was no paper-work involved with my cash-in-hand job in the Cabbage Patch Hotel, Coolangatta. I also had no contact with real estate agents as I stayed
with co-workers.

To summarise my life in 1974-5: I slept all morning in Tweed Heads, then spent the afternoon sitting on the beach marking lessons, and worked 4 nights a week
in the resident band at the Cabbage Patch, just over the border.

According to Private Investigator, however, I lived in Lane Cove, Sydney, and worked for the Dept. of Education as a correspondence marker, from my rented
office-space in North Sydney. Although the facts as uncovered by PI bear some relation to the truth, I think it would be fair to describe PI's version as
misinformation.

Hope that helps, Zeuszor. Reality can be a lot more fuzzy than 'facts'.

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sWord
Hope that helps, Zeuszor. Reality can be a lot more fuzzy than 'facts'.

Indeed it does, sir, and indeed reality can be. Thank you.

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sWord

Quote
zeuszor
sWord, maybe you can help us to understand how and why it is, that it seems like certain misinformation about DM's past and the history of the cult seems to get published from time to time on the forum that you own?

Yes, I'm certain I can help you understand that.

By "certain misinformation" I assume you are implying that there is a discrepancy between the recollections from 3 or 4 decades ago of a certain
individual "K", and the information recently uncovered by a PI.

I can only give you a parallel from my own life. In 1974 a friend, Owen, and I rented a house in Lane Cove, with the intention of subletting rooms to
students. Before we moved in I got a casual job interstate. After 6 months, as I had not actually lived in the house, I informed the landlord, and Owen then
became the sole lessee. A series of students sublet rooms.

As I had no idea how long the high-paying casual work would last, I kept my office-space in North Sydney, where I received correspondence-lessons from the
Dept. of Education in Sydney, to mark. My mother picked up the mail and once a week posted it to me in Queensland where I marked it and sent it back.
The Department never noticed that I returned the lessons from Queensland.

After 18 months my job in Queensland came to an end. I returned to Sydney and stayed for some time in the house I had previously rented with Owen. I
remember some of the students there at the time. There were Niels and Rosa, who I'm sure will remember me.

If PI were to look into my life at the time, he could discover from the rental records (perhaps) that I was a registered tenant at 38 King William St. Lane
Cove, from July to December 1974. However, if he came across Niels he would learn that I lived in the house around January 1976. He'd be certain of it as
he'd recall that I helped organise his 21st birthday party.

There was no paper-work involved with my cash-in-hand job in the Cabbage Patch Hotel, Coolangatta. I also had no contact with real estate agents as I stayed
with co-workers.

To summarise my life in 1974-5: I slept all morning in Tweed Heads, then spent the afternoon sitting on the beach marking lessons, and worked 4 nights a week
in the resident band at the Cabbage Patch, just over the border.

According to Private Investigator, however, I lived in Lane Cove, Sydney, and worked for the Dept. of Education as a correspondence marker, from my rented
office-space in North Sydney. Although the facts as uncovered by PI bear some relation to the truth, I think it would be fair to describe PI's version as
misinformation.

Hope that helps, Zeuszor. Reality can be a lot more fuzzy than 'facts'.

I saw sWord's answer and have thought it over. It's not a bad argument, but you don't appreciate how PIs work in the real world. PIs tend to state what is a fact and then confirm additional information, if the budget allows or by providing the facts, they provide leads to the client to follow up.

For example:

The PI might say, rental records indicate that the subject rented an apartment at.... See, that is a fact. The rental records do indicate that. Doesn't say the person lived there. The PI then might indicate to the client that he or she would (for example) be willing to talk to neighbors to ascertain if the person in fact resided at the apartment.

Here's a fact. We have been asking lots of questions to ascertain the truth regarding DM's involvement in the COG, but have been getting very few truthful answers!

Here's a few:

In what year and in what months was David McKay a member of the Children of God?

What was his Bible name?

In what year and what month did he become a Shepherd of his own colony, and how long did he remain a Shepherd?

If he was a COG Shepherd and received COG information, didn't that effectively continue to make him part of the COG organization?

Was the COG in Broken Hill part of the official COG organization or was it Dave's breakaway group?

Did DM use the name Paul in Broken Hill?

Who placed the full page advertisements in the Broken Hill Regional Advertiser in 1976 promoting the COG?

Are those who supposedly know, going on record as saying that the PO Box used by the COG in Broken Hill was opened by Dave McKay in 1973 and that he allowed the COG to continue using it in 1976?

The Dude Abides!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 09:55AM by zeuszor.

After the first Australian Story, I went onto the public forum set up for public discussion immediately following the show. Several hundred viewers accessed the forum that night and over the next few weeks.
I exposed DM's welfare and housing fraud on the forum, and within days authorities called on the McKays. Nothing happened, so I guess his premeditated cover-up stories worked. That was in the first half of 2007.
_________________________

This matter of 'a certain individual, (shall we call him "K"?)' thwarting the arrest of DM over welfare fraud sounds to me like mythology. Are you attempting to say that Private Eyes sent an advance copy of his evidence to "K" who then alerted his father and foiled the plan. To the best of my knowledge Private Eyes and K are not in communication.

If on the other hand, this mythology is about the dreaded Dossier ... then the copy I received doesn't contain enough to imprison DM, and it was circulated at least two years after the authorities got to DM after my ABC forum accusations. Is it that we are talking about how "K" received a copy of the Dossier from Ms Smith, sent to her by its author? After that "K" sent the relevant personal information (not the whole file) to any JC mentioned in the dossier. Is that what you are referring to Malcolm?

I think the major feature of the dossier was the unnecessary exposure of private information; as a means of getting DM into prison it wasn't enough. The authorities may well have it, but DM's stories were worked out well in advance.

Dear Sword,

In that event I offer (possibly a reluctant)apology to the msterious "K", who I may have misjudged due to his earlier assertion (I believe I'm correct here!) that any incriminating information that we hold, should "ethically" be shared with the JC's.....(I hope that "Y" appreciates the effort I'm going to not to "identify" individuals, here) ....I will endeavour to confirm this with "David Lowe" (who we have erstwhile been assured, by some "non compos mentis" lies stealthily in the background, "pulling" all the strings....)

and must heartily congratulate you Sword, for the effort you undertook at the time....having worked for the Aust. Public Service, I can well appreciate how difficult it is to prod any "movement" out of the beast....proceeding with litigation is an activity fraught with the risk of incurring significant cost on a Department, with the ever present possiblity of "non-conviction" on a technicality....hence officers (and they must be reasonably senior officers) tend to shy of it, due to the "impact" it could potentially have on their own standing (and chance of "promotion") internally....."mediocrity" of performance is the far safer bet!

I DO though return to Blackhats assertion that David McKay can reasonably be considered "not guilty", if charges and successful prosecution have to date, not been, followed through...which despite the good intentions, I consider parlous logic!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 10:57AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

I must say that I appreciate both the perspectives of Sword and Zueszor into the "reliablity" of the historical record.

I would hope that a comptetent investigative authority took into account the potential "inaccuracies" that a literalist reading of primary source documents, might give rise to. I would though suspect that such "inaccuracies" would be more commonly the exception than the rule (nevertheless, corroborating the primary source documents through "triangulating" data should be a priority to eliminate such "exceptions"). The primary source documents are STARTING points, which may be elaborated on, pending further research....

I think that "the Dude" has a number of valid points, in the examples he provides (of McKays COG background and the origin of many of "his" teachings)in that were we NOT to have sourced this data, we would merely be relying on whatever fabrication of history, David chose to invent to suit his purposes....I still suspect that the majority of his remaining membership do not have a CLUE about the origins of the "crooked little man" they worship......


Into whose account (and under whose controlling) interest will the money from Joe's recent kidney "donation" (read JC organ farming) be directed.... it is a question of fact, relevant to judgements in relation to the legitimacy of McKay Inc. and NOT to my mind, a matter of "idle conjecture", "infringing personal privacies" that has no "practical bearing" on the matter at hand, because the primary documents possibly might just not include "100%" of the picture......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 11:09AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Hi Malcolm, not sure who "y" is, but this Y appreciates it! :)
Like you, I miss Agurs posts also.
Thanks for your response earlier Zeuszor. We all make mistakes. it is part of being human.It takes strength to acknowledge it.

It seems that the majority of the issue in discrepancies about events that Zeuszor is worried about, occured in 1973. To be honest, if memories of anyone from 30 years ago were completely accurate, I would be shocked.There have been alot of scientific studies that indicate that memory particularly from so long ago is flexible, and is in fact after a period of time generally only a rough guide to events.
Those fortunate people with photographic long term memory from early childhood, or even from more than 30 years ago, are very very rare.


I have to wonder;are there many on the board who could give first and last names of their neighbors from 1973?..Or if more appropriate, the people who lived 3 or 4 houses up or down from where they lived, when they were 5 or 6?
If you stayed in the same place most of your childhood, you might be able to. If you moved around, much less likely.

And any PI trying to research who lived next door to whom 37 years ago, by asking neighbors what they remember, would meet with the same kind of problem. Was it 1973, 1972 or 1971 that Joe lived next door to you? Most likely they don't know, unless as Sword pointed out, there was a personal marker (like the 21 st birthday that was planned together) that would help them remember.
Some of those questions would probably be akin to asking an adult to remember the name of his fathers' boss when he was 6 years old. Even the father, if he has had several jobs since then, may not remember accurately from 37 years ago.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 12:13PM by yasmin.

Dear Yasmin,

Were I to identify you as "y"...(.. or "Y"!)..."Why",....that would just "blow your cover" wouldn't it,

hence I remain bound to secrecy!!

*****************************************************************************************************************************


Your point is well taken in relation to the falliable nature of human memory....I agree with you that you can't simply rely on ONE account...

there would need to be two or more corroborating "memories"....(which I would then consider closer to "infalliable")...for example, David's neighbours, his fellow cohorts in the Children of God, work colleagues in the Barrier Times, the gentleman he ran with, members of the churches he infiltrated....

possibly Zeuszor's sources have such "corroboration", who can say?...

....in the run of the mill matters of everyday life, it IS difficult to remember many of the minor details

....perhaps I'm a little unusual, however, for some reason,

I find that I have very little difficulty in remembering a great deal about McKay and the Christians.....

...that must just be due to the "indelible" impression the man makes on one, I guess.....!


*****************************************************************************************************************************


Of course in order, to avoid the eternal problem of infringing on personal identity,

I suppose we could always just resort to numbers....

..but would this lead us to KAOS?

[www.youtube.com]



- "Agent 13"(..or to be otherwise known as "M"!)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 07:04PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Quote
yasmin
Hi Malcolm, not sure who "y" is, but this Y appreciates it! :)
Like you, I miss Agurs posts also.
Thanks for your response earlier Zeuszor. We all make mistakes. it is part of being human.It takes strength to acknowledge it.

It seems that the majority of the issue in discrepancies about events that Zeuszor is worried about, occured in 1973. To be honest, if memories of anyone from 30 years ago were completely accurate, I would be shocked.There have been alot of scientific studies that indicate that memory particularly from so long ago is flexible, and is in fact after a period of time generally only a rough guide to events.
Those fortunate people with photographic long term memory from early childhood, or even from more than 30 years ago, are very very rare.


I have to wonder;are there many on the board who could give first and last names of their neighbors from 1973?..Or if more appropriate, the people who lived 3 or 4 houses up or down from where they lived, when they were 5 or 6?
If you stayed in the same place most of your childhood, you might be able to. If you moved around, much less likely.

And any PI trying to research who lived next door to whom 37 years ago, by asking neighbors what they remember, would meet with the same kind of problem. Was it 1973, 1972 or 1971 that Joe lived next door to you? Most likely they don't know, unless as Sword pointed out, there was a personal marker (like the 21 st birthday that was planned together) that would help them remember.
Some of those questions would probably be akin to asking an adult to remember the name of his fathers' boss when he was 6 years old. Even the father, if he has had several jobs since then, may not remember accurately from 37 years ago.

Yasmin, members of this board and the ex JC Board doesn't always agree.

But one thing that they will agree on, just like DM's neighbors would....he is not somebody you easily forget! lol.

In Broken Hill he worked as a journalist, was a professional runner and had the reputation of being involved with the Children of God. Trust me when I say, people remember him.

If you are in Australia, feel free to wander down to Medowie or Waterloo and ask the neighbors if they remember Dave, they probably will have some great stories!

The example of speaking to neighbors though, was simply that, an example. I am sure PI's have a whole raft of measures at their disposable to verify information. They probably would go out of business very quickly if they didn't.

I don't have a problem with genuine poor recollection. But It is important in this matter, that if a person (and let's leave personalities out of it) was for example born in 1965 and they say something occurred when they were 10, that they realize they are talking about something that occurred in 1975. If they were 8, then it occurred in 1973. If they are unsure, it's probably best for them, not to say anything.

The dates between 1973 and 1976 (as they relate to Dave McKay) are particularly at issue, due to claim Dave McKay has made about himself. He has made these claims to knowledgeable people, including to members of several ex Children of God sites. He was still actively trying to dialogue with them as late as 2003, although they mostly wanted nothing to do with him, as they recognized his agenda.

As you say, we all make mistakes, so let's not knock those that are trying to arrive at the truth.

Current Guests on the JC site are probably just people visiting the site and reading the posts and articles.

Some of them may be people trying to determine what is being deleted.

My context of being happy about what is being deleted is acting under the assumption that the whole board will eventually disappear. I agree if it is selected deleting, with the board to reappear than it's probably an issue. But then do the people, really want a whole lot of negative untrue stuff about them being left permanently on the board, if their children have left the cult?

Here's a fact. We have been asking lots of questions to ascertain the truth regarding DM's involvement in the COG, but have been getting very few truthful answers!

Frustrating; it appears that K wrongly thought this was directed at him? It was simply a statement of fact, probably best answered by DM himself.

I don't know why they misinterpret these things. It was like when I responded to RR's comment about the thread not being locked. I said something about it being good that free speech was continuing and he thought I was referring to RR's other comment about people being banned.