I am actually not interested in bringing DM to any form of justice you might conceive to be right.

In fact, the only form of justice for DM is on his dying day, and that is between him and God.

You can't presume to take that position. That is for God alone..





I

By that logic, nobody should be in jail.

The man is a criminal, and deserves to be treated like one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 08:45PM by zeuszor.

zeuszor,

It is an unfortunate fact of life that a lot of 'bad guys' get away with their bad behaviour. This may not be right by most peoples value systems but it is nevertheless true.
One of the problems is that our justice systems, the processes we rely on to right the wrongs, are not designed to consider the subtleties of interpersonal dynamics--how people are drawn into and remain in cults. Consequently fraud and congames such as are exploited by cults are very difficult to prove to an acceptable level in a court of law.

Civilised peoples accept the limitations of the justice system because the alternative--vigilante justice--is considerably worse. In that case the vigilante is the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner and so on a par of evil with the evil-doer.

By all means expose these conmen and frauds within the limits that the law allows--in order to educate others of the potential dangers--but do not stoop to the level of the conman by assuming that you have the right to be sole judge jury and executioner over others, even 'bad guys' behaviour. A vigilante has crossed the line from reason into megalomania (just like a cult leader) by assuming that his point of view is the only possible correct one--we are none of us that infallible.

Civilised people accept that no system is perfect so work toward either improving the system or alleviating the problems that the unavoidable imperfections of the system create.

Within the law, the best way to minimise the effects that a cult leader can have on others is to expose the techniques and tricks that he uses to con others so that less people will be taken in.

A perfect system is not an option, there will always be conmen and those victimised by them--just as there will always be educators who attempt to expose those tactics.

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Stoic
By all means expose these conmen and frauds within the limits that the law allows--in order to educate others of the potential dangers--but do not stoop to the level of the conman by assuming that you have the right to be sole judge jury and executioner over others, even 'bad guys' behaviour. A vigilante has crossed the line from reason into megalomania (just like a cult leader) by assuming that his point of view is the only possible correct one--we are none of us that infallible.

I receive that, Stoic. Thank you.

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Adrian
It seems that Kevin is defending Dave because I described him as a "heinous monster" and that's fine. However, he misrepresents my feelings about xjcs. I hold ex-members in high regards. I think they are fortunate to live in the freedom that all humans should enjoy.

I have a lot of respect for Kevin and I'm sure it's tough to hear characterizations of his dad. Dave McKay has hurt numerous families and caused much pain too. I don't hate Dave Mc Kay but he is who he is.

Doesn't defend David, huh?

Yep, I agree, Adrian. David McKay is an indefensible monster.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 09:13PM by zeuszor.

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zeuszor

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cait
Maybe it's time you gave yourself another 3 month sebatical.

Maybe you're right. Maybe another sabbatical is called for. I'll think about it.

So I thought about it, and nah, no sabbatical for me.

Now the statistics read:

Total Messages: 19992

Total Subjects: 659

Let's see.....24483 minus 19992 means that 4491 messages have been deleted. Going on averages, most of those messages would be things written by Dave, things which people here have responded to.

Destroying evidence is a last resort. I rest my case.

- Blackhat

Dear Blackhat,

I see that the "statistics" read similarly tonight (14th November)....I never did put a lot of time into McKays site...(the "Teachings" page, which I did look at occasionally seems much the same, to me....) Do you know what it is, exactly, that is being "deleted"....a lot of the old idiocy (McKay fabricating "crimes" on the part of his enemies for example)...still seems to be up?

Are we watching the "Titanic" slowly go down, deck by deck here, or is there a pattern to the madness?

Darnit Mal, just as I was trying to see something positive about the cult you had to go and burst my bubble...

- Zueszor

Dear Zeusor,

Do I detect your tongue in cheek humour here, (yet again)? Some of the "bandwagons" that David has sought to associate himself with, (Refugee rights, Organ Donation, International Development) are worthy causes, that really do deserve to be championed....

the "inclusive theology" that we both referred to earlier,

the extreme nature of the "commitment" that should be expected from those who wish to describe them as Christians, would be another

(all I ask is that one does not "commit" to McKay, or his representatives by placing oneself in unbiblical servitude to them ...the Acts 2:44-5 passage the JC's quote mentions "all things being in common", as would be indicated by common proprietary rights and joint bank accounts, NOT "feudal reign" by the appointed leaders in the JC's),

or the relegation of the "sacraments" (water baptism, communion, etc) to largely historical footnotes within Christs' ministry, I also consider a "positive".


Funnily enough, now that (in my reading) as the "heinous monster" is becoming progressively less of a threat (due to the fact that his empire is disintegrating into irrelevancy), I would actually suggest that we consider what (if anything) may be done to help McKay. "Empathy" is useless. (I wouldn't show "empathy" to a rattle-snake, when handling one, any more than I would in dealing with McKay...."empathy" is simply a "weakness" in the eyes of a "snake" that will only be duly exploited, once opportunity presents itself)...but perhaps some attempt to "communicate"....once he is a little more safely isolated (the "core" of Cherry, Ross, Robin and Christine....will possibly never leave....)...I still think self harm is a concern with him!


David likely has still some "comeback" he is hatching in his sick little mind......

.....but a souffle doesn't "rise twice"...as a certain Prime Minister once said....

Dear Adrian,

Thank you for your kind thoughts....you are I believe, "flat out" with a number of "cult issues" and I thank you for having the time to look in on this minor "soap opera" (in the over all scheme of things). I appreciate your remarks...."heinous monster" is certainly how I would have personally described David, at the height of his "power"....(though I might now describe him as little more that a "heinous miser" desperately holding onto the last few souls, in his grasp......)

Like you, I agree that many "prominent personalities" in the xjc.jc site are exemplary examples of individuals who have had the strength to return to "humanity" after prolonged exposure to a cult environment....

Stoic That was a very well worded post.

You said:By all means expose these conmen and frauds within the limits that the law allows--in order to educate others of the potential dangers--but do not stoop to the level of the conman by assuming that you have the right to be sole judge jury and executioner over others, even 'bad guys' behaviour. A vigilante has crossed the line from reason into megalomania (just like a cult leader) by assuming that his point of view is the only possible correct one--we are none of us that infallible.

It's unfortunate when people who are seeming on the side of "good", can assume almost the same dictator like traits of the cult leaders themselves, using put downs and bullying to keep people in line and to maintain a sense of controlling others, demanding respect while giving none, labeling critics as hysterical or trying to silence others opinions because they differ. I know I gave Dave a few chances and each time he let me down and resorted to insults and put downs and after the last go round with him, I decided to simply give up and not trust him again. It just seems foolish to cut someone slack and to try to see the good in them when they will only see the worst in you. I think if a relationship makes you feel bad, defensive or stressed, it's best to sever the bonds and that's what I see some jc's doing. The past is often the best predictor of the future and it's always the same with people who visit Dave's forum....they are viewed with hostility and treated as "enemies" until it becomes a self full filling prophecy and they get sick of the verbal sparring and they leave and Dave can chalk up one more "enemy". Too bad really as their forum could have been a place to actually "discuss" reasonably but Dave could never handled it and needed to be the "star". He is what I call a "right" fighter. He needed to score to feel good about himself, never mind what it cost him in terms of EARNING respect of others. He thought he could demand respect without giving any and of course that isn't how it works but as I believe Dave is actually a very insecure person, he needed to keep people at odds with each other to secure his position. Really his combative style is much like little rose/dsm's who seemed unable to operate without an "enemy" and a war where they could sling arrows at people and they could flex their verbal muscles, power tripping away, feeling invincible and relevant and not seeing that they only succeed in looking like loonies and they end up talking to themselves or one single person, each other.

Personally I have no interest in Dave McKay going to jail and I do wish him a long life as well in the hope he can use his remaining time on earth to make some important amends.

Mal- You said:Funnily enough, now that (in my reading) as the "heinous monster" is becoming progressively less of a threat (due to the fact that his empire is disintegrating into irrelevancy), I would actually suggest that we consider what (if anything) may be done to help McKay. "Empathy" is useless. (I wouldn't show "empathy" to a rattle-snake, when handling one, any more than I would in dealing with McKay...."empathy" is simply a "weakness" in the eyes of a "snake" that will only be duly exploited, once opportunity presents itself)...but perhaps some attempt to "communicate"....once he is a little more safely isolated (the "core" of Cherry, Ross, Robin and Christine....will possibly never leave....)...I still think self harm is a concern with him!

That is a VERY VERY thought provoking statement. I agree that the empire is disintegrating and becoming irrelevant and I shudder to think that something else may be looming. Some media event. Something like another of those horrid whippings. You are NOT alone with your concerns, trust me. I also agree with your rattle snake analogy because that is exactly how I felt after my last set to with Dave. Never again I said would I attempt to reach out or reason with him as he twists things so much. It would take someone who could deal with Dave, to have much hope of success and I even wonder there.....perhaps when things have settled....maybe someone will be able to communicate with Cherry or Chris. I think the idea of them going underground is not a good thing at all.

They say when a battered woman is leaving her abuse spouse that is the most dangerous time for her as she is making a move and he feels desperate.....and this is the time that horrible violent explosions can occur when the abuser feels he is "losing" everything.....I do feel concerns that a cult leader who seems to have lost it all and is left holding tatters of his glorious dreams may think it's time for some big show of retained power.......!!!! I pray I am VERY wrong.