Hi Apollo,
You have made some insightful observations, and I must agree with your remarks about Dave's negative approach to the families and friends of those members who he must feel are not sufficiently focussing their attention on him. The upside is that this amounts to a great compliment to those families and friends who have engendered the greatest criticism and confrontation - both directly from Dave, and indirectly from the family member/friend themself - as well as from other JC community members.

Hey Malcolm,
I believe Glenn's association with the community might be rather deeper than you may be aware, in that he has certainly had regular face-to-face contact with the group in one form or another for some years now. I know he visited the group in Sydney in the past when our relative was a member, and would have spent time with Dave then, as well as during his trial week last year. I wouldn't know how much contact they had during members visits to Victoria, but our relative certainly spent plenty of time down that way with a couple of others, and I expect Dave and Cherry have visited the area 2 or 3 times over the last few years, so it's fairly certain that Glenn would have had more physical contact with the "Sydney" and "Melbourne" teams than most other JC forum contributors.

I also believe that Glenn has frequently taken a stand against Dave and other members when he disagrees with them on a point, and I think it's good to see some-one who is not going to backdown from their beliefs in the name of a so-called "friendship" that may not prove to amount to much when all is said and done.

I found the bar-code on Glenn's forehead to be quite jestful in view of the serious stance the JCs have taken to such "manifestations" of the Mark of the Beast. In fact, I was quite encouraged to see the very reasonable stand he seemed to be taking against Little Rose and Dave in various matters over the last days of the JCs forum being live. The facts remaining are that he didn't join the group, and that he does seem to have grown away from a lot of Al's immature and offensive views : maybe Al has outgrown them these days too, but I just haven't heard much of him for a while. Anyway, I'm sorry that Glenn is banned from contributing to this forum, where I gather he is considered to be a "troll", or an "apologist".

regards,
Kate

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cait
I also believe that Glenn has frequently taken a stand against Dave and other members when he disagrees with them on a point, and I think it's good to see some-one who is not going to backdown from their beliefs in the name of a so-called "friendship" that may not prove to amount to much when all is said and done.

I found the bar-code on Glenn's forehead to be quite jestful in view of the serious stance the JCs have taken to such "manifestations" of the Mark of the Beast. In fact, I was quite encouraged to see the very reasonable stand he seemed to be taking against Little Rose and Dave in various matters over the last days of the JCs forum being live. The facts remaining are that he didn't join the group, and that he does seem to have grown away from a lot of Al's immature and offensive views : maybe Al has outgrown them these days too, but I just haven't heard much of him for a while. Anyway, I'm sorry that Glenn is banned from contributing to this forum, where I gather he is considered to be a "troll", or an "apologist".

regards,
Kate

That's because he is both a troll and an apologist. I think that Glen can't be trusted. There is something totally weird going on between him and Al. But I can't put my finger on it. Mmm maybe that was a wrong choice of words, given Al's predisposition. lol.

He certainly believes DM's spin when he says things like, "all im doing is supporting fellow christians from hate attacks".

I do believe that Al works independently from him at times (which he probably can't control), but I also believe Glen knows much more then he lets on and they probably work together on most of their campaigns.

You can tell he really hates being mentioned negatively on the internet, but he is happy to insult Sheila, Sisi, Anita, you, me, Mal, etc, etc.

It is good to have his writing style. The words he misspells, etc. He uses his phone to email and lowercase i are a feature of that, together with less punctuation. It is helpful when youtube posts are made to try and identify if he is the culprit.

But seriously, they are both very immature in their actions. I think Glen knows exactly what Al is up to, but plays dumb, so he can't get blamed.

He's been emailing me under his own name too, trying to play nice and offering to share information, all full of apologies and "oh poor me, how could I have been so stupid as to trust Dave?" He may be playing nice now because he now wants to get back at DM? It very much tit for tat with these guys. They get offended and so seek revenge. They seem incapable of just moving on and letting certain matters slide.

With respect, ma'am, lifting Glen's ban would be a horrible thing to do. That's a very bad idea. That guy can't be trusted any farther than you can throw him.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 09:30PM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor, don't get me wrong : I was intending to comment on the Jesus Christians and Dave McKay, and responding to Apollo and Malcolm's comments : not trying to detour along a path of judging others.
Nevertheless since you press the point, I will repeat that I am sorry Glenn was banned from contributing to this forum, just as I am sorry that some other JC members and supporters have been banned, however please note that I did not suggest lifting this ban : what's done is done, and I was not addressing the moderator, simply remarking to Apollo and Malcolm.

Agur,

You came up with some cracking names for the rebranding of the cult. Incase Dave's looking in here's another few suggestions... lmaooooooooooooo

'Disband of Brothers'

'The Lying Kings'

'£££££££££££££'

'Dave's Bargain Book Sales'

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cait
Nevertheless since you press the point, I will repeat that I am sorry Glenn was banned from contributing to this forum...

Well, that's just the thing, ma'am; Glen contributed nothing to our free discussion except for trollery and mischeif. He's got more screen names that you've got fingers and toes.

He's just jealous and wants to be DM's Mini-Me again. Either he's playing nice with us behind the scenes now so that he can get back at DM for some percieved slight, or he's playng nice so that he can collect info for DM so as to buy his way back into Big Daddy's good graces. Either way, having him back here is simply a horrible idea in my opinion.

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Cait
I believe Glenn's association with the community...

Whatever happened to, "I would say it's a cult. I would say it's a sect. I would say it's a madness. I would say it's a lot of things. And yes of course Dave is the guru of the Jesus Christians."

So now it's a "community" and DM is to be credited for his effective "parental substitution"? Gee, this sure sounds like an apologist to me.

It strikes me as funny that others complain about what McKay writes, and then complain when he removes it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I think we should be encouraging him to delete the whole thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 01:52AM by zeuszor.

There is certainly no 'community' feeling within the Jesus Christians. There is however alot of anger, hatred, paranoia, scheming and bullying.

The reality is the Jesus Christians are a small group of oppressed individuals desperately trying to live up to the twisted expectations of an egomaniac cult leader halfway around the world.

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zeuszor

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Cait
I believe Glenn's association with the community...

Whatever happened to, "I would say it's a cult. I would say it's a sect. I would say it's a madness. I would say it's a lot of things. And yes of course Dave is the guru of the Jesus Christians."

So now it's a "community" and DM is to be credited for his effective "parental substitution"? Gee, this sure sounds like an apologist to me.

It strikes me as funny that others complain about what McKay writes, and then complain when he removes it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I think we should be encouraging him to delete the whole thing.

Zeuszor, it would be great if you could stop attacking me for my choice of words, but I don't suppose you can unless I simply refrain from commenting on this forum. I must say that I found a lot of comfort and healing offered by Malcolm and others on this thread at the time when our family member was actively involved with the JCs and isolating himself from us. I find lashings of criticism handed out here these days, and Dave's cult is not the sole focus of that criticism by a long shot.

Nothing has happened to what I have said in the past, except you have pulled up my words at an inappropriate moment to slap me in the face with them for no other reason I can see than to maintain control of all views expressed on this thread. Zeuszor, I can accept that your views differ to mine. Please have the decency to reciprocate this acceptance. Finding respect for difference is one of the signs that confirms you're not in a cult.

This is the second time that you have re-interpreted my words to read that I have offered praise of Dave for his effective parental substitution.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT ZEUSZOR - FAR FROM IT, AND WOULD THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO STOP IMPLYING THAT I EVER HAVE, OR EVER WOULD.

*N.B., at the same time I made the remarks you have quoted here, in other interviews in this country I also pointed out that I preferred to use the word "community" out of respect for my loved one, with less inflammatory language being preferable when you are trying to engage in dialogue with a group member, since the word "cult" does carry instantly negative connotations.

I don't back away from either of those statements, and don't think it necessary for you to use them as grounds for personal criticism.

And while we're speaking of difference, I am one of those of the view that it is unfortunate that Davejc is removing/altering posts on the locked forum. Many of those were the best evidence of his very unChristian focus and behaviour: of the lies, the nit-picking and the anger which all the members reflected sooner or later in their dealings with others. Out of their own mouths... as the saying goes. I thought it was a useful resource for potentials to study, and it would be a shame to have that deconstructed and sanitised.

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cait

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zeuszor

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Cait
I believe Glenn's association with the community...

Whatever happened to, "I would say it's a cult. I would say it's a sect. I would say it's a madness. I would say it's a lot of things. And yes of course Dave is the guru of the Jesus Christians."

So now it's a "community" and DM is to be credited for his effective "parental substitution"? Gee, this sure sounds like an apologist to me.

It strikes me as funny that others complain about what McKay writes, and then complain when he removes it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I think we should be encouraging him to delete the whole thing.

Zeuszor, it would be great if you could stop attacking me for my choice of words, but I don't suppose you can unless I simply refrain from commenting on this forum. I must say that I found a lot of comfort and healing offered by Malcolm and others on this thread at the time when our family member was actively involved with the JCs and isolating himself from us. I find lashings of criticism handed out here these days, and Dave's cult is not the sole focus of that criticism by a long shot.

Nothing has happened to what I have said in the past, except you have pulled up my words at an inappropriate moment to slap me in the face with them for no other reason I can see than to maintain control of all views expressed on this thread. Zeuszor, I can accept that your views differ to mine. Please have the decency to reciprocate this acceptance. Finding respect for difference is one of the signs that confirms you're not in a cult.

This is the second time that you have re-interpreted my words to read that I have offered praise of Dave for his effective parental substitution.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT ZEUSZOR - FAR FROM IT, AND WOULD THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO STOP IMPLYING THAT I EVER HAVE, OR EVER WOULD.

*N.B., at the same time I made the remarks you have quoted here, in other interviews in this country I also pointed out that I preferred to use the word "community" out of respect for my loved one, with less inflammatory language being preferable when you are trying to engage in dialogue with a group member, since the word "cult" does carry instantly negative connotations.

I don't back away from either of those statements, and don't think it necessary for you to use them as grounds for personal criticism.

And while we're speaking of difference, I am one of those of the view that it is unfortunate that Davejc is removing/altering posts on the locked forum. Many of those were the best evidence of his very unChristian focus and behaviour: of the lies, the nit-picking and the anger which all the members reflected sooner or later in their dealings with others. Out of their own mouths... as the saying goes. I thought it was a useful resource for potentials to study, and it would be a shame to have that deconstructed and sanitised.

Here is the original quote from you, ma'am. I offer no analysis and present it in its original context. To me, it's reads as if you are commending DM and his consort for their skills in "parental substitution." But that's just my perception. Maybe I'm wrong.

I might add that we are also very proud of our own children and their achievements. In fact, parental substitution is what Dave and Cherry seem to have provided very effectively to their recruits over the years.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Maybe you weren't suggesting that Glen be invited back. I think you have accepted the umpire's decision.

Maybe you just meant that he (and the others) perhaps shouldn't have been banned in the first place.

From what I know, you are the Mary McKillop of the ex-members, and not one who I want to offend.

You are, from what I know, a lovely lady. I do respect you, and I mean no disrespect to you personally. And it is because I respect you that I will be perfectly frank in expressing what I will express next.

In all honesty, ma'am, I think that you hold a naive point of view that says that if everyone chats nicely with one another on the forums, then all the problems in the JCs' world will be resolved.

Now, I am not saying that you are a generally naive person, but that this in this instance your perspective is a naive one.

It's like with a particular X-member inviting DM and the JCs to chat on the XJC site. All that would happen (if he and they showed up), is they would have a competition on who could cut and paste the most, and write ten sentences over and over, analyzing the one sentence the other wrote.

I think face to face contact or one on one private correspondence is probably the only way that exmembers could hope to have an influence on existing members. And even then, they would have to be able to penetrate Dave's pre-planned anti "murmuring" or "gossiping" defense strategy!

We might have to organize a "spot a 'disbanded' JC member" competition!


I am guessing as well that you may be worried that Glen may go over to DM again, if he feels unsupported by "our side." But I say, that's his problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 04:37AM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor I am sure you don't mean to offend and be hurtful to Cait but it doesn't seem right to pull up old comments. They can be read out of context and of course, what someone says when a hurt is fresh or raw, might not be the same exact terms they would use years later when time as healed them or when God have moved them to forgive.
If we could stay in the present that would be awesome. I can only speak for myself when I say that when a hurt is fresh, I can speak very vehemently about the situation and in time, when I see that the abuse I suffered was not "personal" because the abuser treats everyone that way. This is not to say I condone anything they did or said but just that I got it into perspective.

In the case of someone like little rose, one becomes desensitized to her insanity and I choose to lightly mock or laugh it off as when I actually thought about it, who would take her seriously in any way? She's a known lunatic on the internet. My coping mechanism with her calling me a pornographer, a lipstick lesbian, a Jihadist etc is to laugh at her. If it makes her "madder" Oh well.....I understand she's in a world of legal trouble as it is. I don't expect she will hope a bus to Victoria and do her stalking in person. Bullies like her are cowards and in the event I am wrong, I would not hesitate to involved the police. I can't control her. She can't control herself. So I might as well laugh and that is MY choice to express myself that way. Everyone has different ways of expressing the hurt, anger or disappointments they suffer so let's please NOT put each other down. Let's validate each other and be supports.

Who do you think rejoices when we quarrel? I think it's wrong for us to take swipes at each other. I think it's worse to take swipes at people who do not post here. I have "friends" here that I would defend but I also will defend my friends who do not post here and thinly veiled swipes at them HURT ME. Don't you think there has been enough suffering caused by the Jesus Christians and Dave? Must we dissect those who have suffered?

The very reason people don't like Dave is that he is petty and nitpicking and he pulls up posts, takes them out of context, happily misquotes people to suit his purposes and tries to cause people to be suspect of ones they should trust. He thrives on causing a stir. Can we rise above Dave's antics when it comes to each other?
Can we not label each other with names that make the other feel shame? I have learned so much from Dave McKay.
I have learned from little rose as well.

I have seen in them what I would NEVER EVER EVER want to be. To behave as they do and call themselves Christians, is an abomination. That is not to say either are without hope of salvation and redemption but that is between them and God and I'll admit I would be suspicious of any sudden turn around in either of them but in all honesty if there was to be a change in their hearts, if God was to move them to repent TO HIM, he could cause a genuine change in them and they could go forth to do good in their lives.

Why would we want anything else for them or their families?

Of course I don't "like" them in their present state but I am just saying let's remember all things are possible thru God's mighty hand and sinners who repent of the worst bad acts will have the same hope of Heaven as anyone else.

I've been forgiven much in my life and therefore God has placed within me, a fairly forgiving heart. No one should need to apologize for that or to be made to feel ashamed. I don't "flip flop" as someone suggested to me recently in a pm.....I just get over the freshness of the hurts and yes I try to laugh. Of course I understand the seriousness of the whole cult thing and yes I know little rose and her videos are absolute slander and insanity but this is how I deal with it.

I want to let others express themselves freely and not censor them or make them feel out of place. I'm not lecturing anyone...I am the first to hold my hand up that I just asked someone else to adjust their comment to suit me but I did come to see that it wasn't my place to boss them around and I need to just focus on my own behaviors.

Glenn did make some decent and fair remarks in my defense over at the jc site but he still got his jabs in with words like kooky and nutty and the like. I don't know where he stands and I don't even think he knows where he stands if he is sending emails around. No I don't trust him as I do think he wanted his place back from little rose and Glenn and little rose have both shown that they are willing to be used as attackers on his behalf and they both DO flip flop enough that it would take a lot for me to trust that either of them are not just working to solidify some "position" with Dave. Glenn has gone out of his way to be very hurtful and again I choose to use humour to cope and I don't care if he pulls that "don't mention my name ever again" nonsense. I reached out to thank him after his tepid defense of me and was soundly rebuffed so I leave it there with Glenn. Some of the extremely malicious youtube business and slander does seem to use terms that can be traced back to some years ago when it seems there was similar goings on and all that is so distasteful and ugly, so I want to keep clear of that anyway. I don't believe little rose was receiving much of what she said she was getting...I think she is deluded and enjoys a hysterical personality as uses her these alleged insults as he excuse to just rant and rave viciously. I don't believe for a second that anyone from any site taunted her about her daughter and her complaints about other people making videos is nonsense as she provided NO proof. Using filthy terms and dragging families into the mix is wrong but the only one I have actually SEEN doing that is little rose and that's why I am glad we have 2 forums that don't allow such abuses.

After Dave's recent assault on me, I said I would not defend Dave again.....this meant I would not be viewing him as a hurt person and feeling pitiful for him as much and that I would hold him accountable for his words and actions without making excuses for him. I did NOT mean I wish him death or evil and of course if he was about to fall off a cliff, I would pull him back. I'm not a savage. I was angry and hurt but I'm not little rose who "hates" people and I'm bloody glad I am not like her. Blimey....who wants enemies at every turn? Who wants professionals viewing your vicious videos and saying you should be locked up?

I really hope we can all respect and support each other and remember, all have been hurt in different ways and we can't tell another person how they should post. Yes this is another long Sisi post but it's from my heart. I do care about all the posters here and at the ex site. I care about the current jc's and would love to see the ALL the group truly disband and people go on to have happy lives.