Sorry there Blackhat if I did use the wrong word....not trying to argue just comparing what words can mean as we all from different places.

See I will say............Bill was ranting and raving about how he hates ACDC. That means to me that Bill's opinion was VERY over the top and that I sort of am putting him down by suggesting he's being unreasonable.

I might say She just raved about the cake......then I would mean the person LOVED the cake.

He was on a rant about drug use.....to me means the person was against drug use and really being vehement.

Don't know what's right or accepted. Just trying to smooth over any misunderstanding between us all since we are all on the same side and against the common problem. :)

I'll try myself to be more clear so none of my words imply offense to people here....unless I mean to critique them harshly. (joking)

Let see....I shall practice...

McKay raved about how grateful he was for Agur's concern over the obvious failure of his cult.

McKay ranted loudly saying he wished that the remaining few members would pack up and go their own ways and leave him in peace to practice the last taboo.

No....doesn't work? Ahhhhhhhh....................I need to work on it.

Actually, I was just ignoring this one, because I thought a reply would distract from the thread, and Mr Ross and Agur both put it so well, ...but if you truly value my input Zeuszor , (cough?) i did send you a lot of suggestions in a pm a while ago.

Re some more suggestions for helping with this group though;

In general, I would suggest that making the forum a safe place for ex members to come to, and share information, without fear of being attacked or having their privacy and boundaries ignored would be a great beginning..Ex members after all are a great source of honest information and their real life experiences are deeply valuable inho. Also, they deserve support and help, but that is just mho.

(Actually though, I thought it was Overlikon i wasn't replying to ( the other one who is of course, not you!)And Sir Laughsalot, who again, you have explained was not you.)

Agur, i find your writings interesting and informative, and Blackhat, your information, songs, and information on colloquial differences are always both interesting and entertaining.
Zeuszor, while I appreciate the fact that you appear to want my input? don't worry. If I feel the need to say something I will; and sometimes I like to take a break, also..So perhaps best instead just to "focus like a lazer" on the topic of the thread?
all the best, Yasmin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2010 11:58PM by yasmin.

It would be best if we could all get along and work more cooperatively. However, I will not stand for anybody restraining my freedom of expression, except of course within the boundaries of this forum's rules. If I wanted somebody always telling me what to say and how to say it, then I'd join the JCs. The primary function of this forum is not as a sort of ex-members' support group. The primary function of this forum is public education with respect to cults, sects, and NRMs. All who are interested in participating in this free discussion, are welcome here.

The whole point of collecting information on who is who in term of participants on this thread, is because there are potential witnesses to alleged crimes committed by the cult. Also X-members were obviously a part of JC history. It is important for certain agencies to get a background of the group's history and know who is who, and whether they still support or don't support the JC. Also, how they might be contacted. When you look at an organized crime investigation, you include all known associates. It is standard practice. Things like birthdates are just standard identifiers.

This isn't Facebook, and I don't do this for "fun." I am trying to help stop McKay from hurting more kids and their families, and it's not just some hobby to me, either.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2010 02:27AM by zeuszor.

Hell, it's 4:19. Let's all just chill.

[www.youtube.com]

Lady finger, dipped in moonlight, writing what for? across the morning sky.
Sunlight splatters, dawn with answer, darkness shrugs and bids the day good-bye.

That's one of the best lyrics in all of rock history, IMO.

How many of the recent ex-members like the Dead, I wonder? Do you reckon that Suelo grooves to them in his cave? I'd actually like to meet that guy someday.

(cough cough)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2010 02:51AM by zeuszor.

Thank you, Yasmin. Your posts are always gracious, caring and balanced. Hopefully there can be room for everyone on all forums, those who speak bluntly and assertively and those who still feel there is hope and post with compassion and mercy. As long as we remain respectful of each other, don’t invalidate the others experience, then we can have forums that as many as possible will feel comfortable to join in on. It helps me to remind myself there is only one “bad guy” who is continually the cause of misery and that when someone else speaks in a way that I find unusual or uncomfortable, I need to remember they have been victims too and have the right to express themselves. Sometimes “venting” a little (or a lot-hehe) helps the healing process and people move from anger and hurt towards more understanding and working on solutions. Being generous to others and trying to imagine yourself in their shoes has helped me as I came to see I had no right to sit in judgment of them and that criticizing their way of expressing themselves is akin to invalidating their horrible experiences with the cult. I decided I would not do that and I make greater effort to accept that people will always have different posting styles based on where they are at—it doesn’t make them wrong or evil—it can mean they were far more affected and that there is likely much that happened to them that I am not aware of so best I do not judge them harshly…I know some days I am more sympathetic and patient than others. That doesn’t mean MPD, it just means some days I feel more *itchy over how I was treated and how I feel the cult operates.

At one time, I did promote compassion/pity for Mc himself, trying to view him as an injured animal “needing” my healing hugs and all that pseudo psychobabble but I have learned that any kindness towards him, gets my face slapped soundly so it’s not worth it. He is what he is and all that he is, is shown daily on his forum. He’s just an angry bitter old man who failed and is pissed off about that fact. He’s resigned that he is never going to be famous or a beloved household word so he decided he will try to be notorious and feared instead. A cantankerous mutant troll who hides under his bus and pops out on the forum to terrorize people periodically then slithers back under his sanctuary to watch the fallout, rubbing gnarled hands with glee. I think of Gollum from The Lord of The Rings---was a good hobbit but his greed caused him to morph into something mutated unable to be good and kind and NOT to be trusted because his penchant for stirring up crap is known to all.

Just substitute our man Mc into this description of Gollum.

During his centuries under the Ring's (cults) influence, Gollum developed a split personality (heehee as Mc likes to label others) "Sméagol" still vaguely remembered things like friendship and love, while "Gollum" was a slave to the Ring (cult) who knew only treachery and violence. Samwise Gamgee named the good personality "Slinker", and the bad personality "Stinker". The two personalities often quarreled when Gollum talked to himself much as Mc seems to post to himself at the forum, "through never having anyone else to speak to" and had a love/hate relationship with even himself---- again I see good Dave and bad Dave come out at different times.


I see nothing kind or decent in him now though and that is my opinion. There is no hate on my side but I refuse to con myself by pretending he is like other people, that if you show him kindness he will respond with kindness….no…. smile at him on the schoolbus and he will knock you flat and steal your lunch money like a schoolyard bully. I’m over the idea that “hugs” will fix Mc and all I want to do now is to make sure that potentials are well warned of what they will encounter if they are ever to think of joining that worthless forum over there or worse, meeting up with the cult in person.

I do find the freedom to share on forums, with like minded people, has helped me greatly and the mix and balance of all different personalities helps me learn from them too.

How do the Jesus Christians pay their bills?
Australia's welfare system is benign, and designed to enable you to survive with dignity if you have no vices. DM and his wife don't smoke and get most of their food and clothing from disciplined, regular and efficient dumpster-diving. I quite admire this way of surviving, so I can't criticise it.

Do they really get enough money from those silly books to feed everyone and to pay for all expenses like clothes and stuff?
Luxuries like running vehicles and overseas trips are offset by their saving on their welfare cheques/checks through the dumpster-diving. The 'silly books' sell for $1-$2 or more, depending on the skill of the salesperson. When I last looked it was possible to get more than $100 a day from the donations. This is entirely tax-free as it is cash and not banked.


How does Dave support himself if he doesn't sell books him self? If his wife is too sick to work at handing books out and Dave is too old or just wont do it then how do they pay for medical care and all?
He owns the books, and sells them to the distributors, I think for $0.20 or there-abouts. So if you get 100 books to distribute, he gets $20. (As far as I know based on information from 3 or 4 years ago). Australia is on a different planet to the US with regard to social welfare and medical expenses. Basically it's free. Dave probably gets a carer's pension as well as his, and her, welfare pension.
Better than the working poor in the US. Add his income from the books and CDs etc ....

Surely if they have not contributed to the system they don't suck out of the system. Would that be Christian? Would it be stealing almost?
They are not Christians. End of.

How about the kid that was in the group? Did he go to a state funded school yet the Jesus Christians don't contribute anything to the tax system or to society? I know his parents are some of the people that left the cult now but I am asking if the Jesus Christians use the system they refuse to contribute to.
Of course they suck from the system. DM learnt the justification from the CoG. The system is Egypt, and is there to be ripped off. It is not a sin to lie to the Government either. The Government is evil. New recruits who may have idealistic notions learn to accept the bad logic: easy gain and smiles from the people you've come to admire, with a sermon from Dave's hypnotic voice -- all these have a remarkable effect.

Do they vote? 'f Course not. Then you'd have to be on a roll, with an address

I'm interested in the money trail of this group. are they a registered charity who can take donations? if so don't they have to account for how the money is spent? How much do they sell the books for generally? I know it's said to be donation but what is the average they get I wonder?
No they're not registered, although I think one of them has registered for the Goods and Services tax. You don't have to report your earnings if you have a GST number...you can have one just in case.

As far as I know, the ordinary members don't get the welfare payment. Free food and clothing if you know how to do it, and they teach each other. More money to spend from the book-sales than the dole would give you, with none of the hassle.

I'd like to know as much as possible about how the funds are managed and how the Jesus Christians were able to pay for that fancy trip.
Funds are not 'managed' on paper. The fancy trip came from a damages case in the US. Google it. The lead up to the case went on for months.

I understood the plan was to forsake money and luxury and give all to help the poor people. How does a fancy trip on a luxury liner help poor folks? Did someone give the Jesus Christians a big gift and that's how they could buy the trip? It's incredible to me that Dave sells forsaking all money but has no trouble spending thousands on the group for a pretty pointless luxury and especially in these economic times when the average person can only afford to give less to charity if they are to keep their own households together. Charities are reporting serious shortfalls and now the noble money hating Jesus Christians take a trip that must have cost $25,000 +++. The poor need all the help they can get and the Jesus Christian judge and condemn others for the use of money for shallow reasons. It's quite hypocritical.
You're so right about the hypocrisy. But if an Apostle justifies it, what can you say....?

It sure would be cool if some remaining Jesus Christians could answer some questions without becoming defensive and hostile.
Even after they leave they're not likely to talk about it much for at least a decade. Much of the lifestyle is to be admired, and a lot of the mind-set endures. Hundreds of attitudes and opinions have to be discarded while others are maintained. It's a difficult process and there is also the social/friendship/camaraderie aspect to consider. Very few ex-members have been able to start talking on ex-forums immediately. Typically ex-members get into something else -- University or music or another cause, and they need to abandon the past.

Hope that helps ....

Thank you very much for the thorough and enlightening analysis that you posted above, sWord.

Quote
sWord
Typically ex-members get into something else -- University or music or another cause, and they need to abandon the past.

Do you really think so? What about also abandoning the idea that somewhere deep down, DM really is a good person, or has some redeeming personal characteristics?

I do not hate the JCs themselves (other than McKay) nor do I mean anybody any harm, physical or otherwise

In fact, I actually rather admire and respect the JCs for what they (ostensibly) stand for.

All Christians should want to be more like Jesus in thought, word, and deed.

I actually have learned a lot and gained much insight from studying some of the JC studies online.

It's not that I disagree with much of what they have to say with respect to obeying Jesus and his "harder sayings".

It's not that I do not like what they have to say (because some of it is pretty profound), it's that I do not like how they behave, that is, hypocritically.

In many respects, as a matter of fact, I think that they are right. I do not go to church very often myself, know what I'm saying?

It's just that from where I sit, It looks like they are being deceived, all of them.

All I see is that the end result of being involved with the JCs means that I eventually wind up on the street hawking DM's books. How is that "forsaking all", "trusting God" and not depending on money? The whole point of being a JC is to raise money, it seems like. DM LOVES money.

In other words, layman's terms so to say, being a Christian does not mean that one must give away all of his stuff, refuse to work for money, and hate his family, right? It's a rhetorical question; of course being a Christian does not mean those things. If these things, Jesus' harder sayings were meant to be taken literally, then how come there aren't a lot of blind Christians, or one-handed Christians, running around, you know? Well, right?

Jesus addresses each of us as individuals and never said that absolute renunciation is for everybody. Please consider the examples of the Centurion, and Zaccheus (was a we little man, and a wee little man was he...remember that children's song?)

DM has apparently never renounced squat, in any sense of the word "renounced." Everybody in the JCs must "forsake all" except for DM and his consort.

4:21 now (cough cough) What a great song:

Fortune comes a crawlin, calliope woman, spinnin that curious sense of your own.
Can you answer? yes I can. but what would be the answer to the answer man?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2010 12:15AM by zeuszor.

Thank you ever so much sWord for answering the questions for well. I think it's helpful to have these such points repeated so that new visitors to this forum can get some answers to such basic questions all in go. The thread is so long and I am sure many questions are answered but it's a bit much to go back and read about 500 pages. *lol*

A FAQ on each cult would be an idea......so that new people could simply read over the "highlights and lowlifes" all in one place rather than needing to search. Just an idea......

I think it's critical to protect (esp. young) people who think that joining up with this cult is a way for them to change the world for good. Frankly I don't see much that McKay does to change anything or better anything for anyone. He does seem to succeed in changing the lives of his cult members but not in a good way-so many of them turning their backs on their families. I see a great deal of depression, unhappiness and negativity in the posts of his cult members. They really write as though they are filled with almost "hate" for "systemites" rather than any love that Jesus taught. There is so much cutting up of other people on that forum that it's just become their HABIT to suspect others of the worst, they see conspiracies and imagine all sorts of nefarious goings on that I doubt have any basis. They come at people visiting their forum with a very negative approach beyond their brief initial welcome, I've noticed they soon slip right into grilling the person on high heat. It always seems so unfair because of the fact the visitor is there alone and they act as a pack, patting each other on the bum for every "score" on the visitor, attacking their beliefs or their questions. It's almost like their act of "fighting together" against the world is all that unites them....not their "love" of Jesus because they speak very little of love...it's sickening to watch these abuses of their visitors repeated over and over. The smarmiest thing is when they attack people then after the person is either run off or banned, they will THEN say they were doing it all our of concern for the person and that telling the "truth" is a way of showing their love. Such toxic thought process. *blah* I've seen people I believe are simply coming to their forum to ask a few questions and within a few posts, they are deemed the enemy with some bizarre imagined connection to some old enemy the JC's have created.

If you look at the Jesus Christian forum, it will ALWAYS be DAVE MCKAY who has come up with the improbable theories of scams and schemes against the group. He desperately tries to link his many enemies together, making himself the ultimate innocent victim of all these Satan loving systemites. Occassionally an unstable mind comes along and helps him spew his unbelievable theories and hatreds and in one recent case, one went so far as to completely assault people online, slandering and libeling with her You Tube videoes and her malicious hate campaign. *Note* This person seems to have gone very quiet and a person like that doesn't go quiet so it makes me wonder myself......who goes from absolute full blown blood curdling howls and ragings to total silence-I don't know which is more creepy. Before long, I'll be like someone we all know and peeking under the bed....*lol*

Personally I look at anyone who has spent their lifetime cultivating as many enemies as either of those two brag of, as PURE TOXIC and they are people that should be avoided like the plague. The wide reach of the internet enables people to read all the Jesus Christian Cult history, including the founders history and to decide for themselves, if this is something they want to be affiliated with. There would be no reason or way for completely independent people to consistently be reporting the exact same experiences if there was no truth to it.

Past actions are the best indicators of future performance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2010 02:55AM by Agur.

Quote
Agur
I see a great deal of depression, unhappiness and negativity in the posts of his cult members. They really write as though they are filled with almost "hate" for "systemites" rather than any love that Jesus taught.

Here is the nastiest post I remember ever reading, that came from a member of the JCs. It is over three years old and in it, Grace explains that she finds it fun to spit in the world's face. Don't forget, I've been doing this for a long time. I'll never forget this one:

Quote
zeuszor
Teenaged rebellion and a show of youthful hatred for authority at its finest.

[welikejesus.com]

Quote

It is fun spitting in the face of a world who is too busy taking themselves so seriously. If you can't laugh at yourself every once in a while, that's too bad.

Wow. Now THAT'S what Jesus would do! Spit in the face of the world! Yeah, right!
[b:40647221cd]
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.[/b:40647221cd]

Jesus does not judge us Grace, so why should you?

[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2010 03:24AM by zeuszor.

Maybe what she meant was that it's sometimes fun to fly in the face of conformity...? Just a thought....

I see some of the Jesus Christians seem to want to see themselves as rebels and non conformists, like activists.....activists can do a lot of good and make positive change but those same types would refuse to knuckle under to the control of leaders that are not being positive and I don't see DM as positive.

Jesus was a non conformist but he was loving, not hateful.