Dear bigpigweed,

Yes I have wondered how this would "play out".... Will McKay ultimately end up shooting himself in his own foot, with his hired guns.... While I haven't lived out Denise's life and can't comment on the experiences that may have led her to make the judgements she makes now, (perhaps I'd make the same were I to have lived the life she has led)... I would say that I have a little bit of background on madman McKay... he clearly intends to "use" Denise, in whatever way, he can, for as long as he is able....


I think the perspective of the existing membership would be that they would subliminally "repress" any overt consideration to themselves, that McKay is a fraud (while at the same time they would be increasingly subconsciously "uncomfortable" that he is...).... I assume that like many previous "disciple", they would tell themselves that David is a "sincere" individual, who has revealed "important truths" of the gospels to them, and whose leadership is criticized by those who do not understand(because we are in "rebellion" to God, you see), his "passion" to defend the teachings of "Christ"...you must remember that they actually have very limited access to any perspective other than the "official line"....

To recap, an earlier thought of yours Zeuszor,

When I was on the JK show, DM started to babble about masturbation: "Who masturbates? Who masturbates?" He cried out while waving his hand up in the air as is to say "Me too!" Now I shall tell you about the exact context in which wanking was brought up as a topic for discussion. I remember it vividly, and that stuff never made it into the final cut, or therefore on the air.

It was close to the end of the show, and L was telling the audience about some of the odd particulars of JC doctrine; she told of how the males in the JCs are pressured into getting vasectomies, also she told about how DM encourages people to masturbate, not just that it was allowed, but encouraged. Of course all of the JCs on stage denied these things and said that she was lying.

L looked incredulous and disgusted. She said impatiently, "But it's on your website Dave. The whole world can read about it." Then DM said something like, "OK, I admit it. That's true. I masturbate. Who else masturbates? Who masturbates?" He was grinning and waving his arm in the air. Then he said "No, better yet, who in the audience HAS masturbated?"

There was a gasp of shock and disgust from the audience, a grumble of discomfort at DM's display of lack of self-control for shock value. L puckered her lips as if to express profound contempt. G. Baldwin shook his head ruefully. I simply stared at DM in amazement because I nearly literally couldn't believe what I was witnessing. J. Kyle told Dave that he was acting perverse and childish.

DM just giggled like he was pleased with himself, and the other JCs on stage laughed on cue also. It was a bizarre scene.


The JC's "lie" on cue (to deceitfully protect the image of the JC's, as they realize would be expected of them)

and then snicker "on cue"....(when it becomes obvious that McKay's strategy is to attempt to "laugh it all off".....)

It is REALLY difficult to see what it happening to yourself within the JC's (or any cult for that matter),

You tell yourself that you'd never became entrapped in such a thing, and that the JC's are a "democracy"

but still succumb to the behaviour that is expected of you... and respond to the "wise direction" of the leader, under pressure,

...Knowing that (internally to the cult's paradigms) it is all so "reasonable"

in the light of the wider "spiritual battle" you are engaged in against the wiles of "Satan"

What you observe is true; the Jesus Christians are in disarray and are falling apart, with groups who want to follow the monastic/freegan tradition being prepared to explore living without the control or influence of Dave McKay.

Others have decided that they can follow this path without a false prophet at the helm, and have decided to go their own ways.

More praise and blessings to them, for having the fortitude to make such decisions, and to stand firm in their beliefs and choices without compromising. They don't need Dave McKay empire-building and publicity-seeking, using their personal faith and lifestyle decisions for his own aggrandisement!

Thank you for this information, Blackhat!

A "run" of defections, would be all that is needed...really....you can't admit to yourself that you're actually unhappy (as to do so, merely means that you are "caving in" to Satan's influence, attempting to dissuade you from prosecuting the Gospel of Christ in your life)...so you repress such thoughts as "of the Devil"...!

"Options" are the things, McKay seeks to suppress for his minions, however his need for publicity "band-wagons" has meant that he has had to (dishonestly) endorse a few causes other his own....

.....the risk of doing so, being of course that he then creates "options" of spiritual legitimacy, outside his own empire....


.... in a an oblique way then , there are then some avenues to say "no" to McKay, without appearing to do so! I agree with you, that those who are able to muster enough courage to do so, be given all the encouragement and support possible, as much for the principles that they might have elected to stand for (I think the majority of the critics of the JC's would support the wider principles of "low impact" lifestyles, and the importance of voluntary and selfless contribution to society), as well as for the unspoken opportunity they present for a "velvet divorce" from overlord McKay.....

Who can say where their road could go..... [www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2010 10:23AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Dave McKay and the Jesus Christians have made (fill in the blank) feel good about him/herself, probably for the first time in his/her life, and (fill in the blank) wants to do everything he/she can to make sure that nothing further happens to expose the Jesus Christians and hurt the credibility of the man and group that have given her/him her/his new-found improved self-image.

(fill in the blank)'s is a very typical position in most cult groups. People outside of the group are viewed either as potential members or potential enemies of the group. They are not usually considered appropriate for friendships-whether close or casual.

That's all you were to Dave, "Peter", just a potential recruit, just another number, just more money.

Now that you have slipped through their fingers, you no longer matter at best, and are considered an enemy at worst.

This is what Lifton called the "dispensing of existence."

All cults and abusive organizations view themselves as engaged in some all-important work, whether it is to convert lost souls, spread "The Truth," improve the well-being of members, or simply raise money. Nothing can be permitted to interfere with this all-important mission.

DM's is a classic expression of the "end justifies the means" argument. This is a terrible concept under the best of circumstances, as it permits deception and other unethical behavior in the pursuit of "good" goals. It is especially heinous when followed in the name of God.

In the JCs, you have to learn to attack to just survive. It is survival of the fittest in their world. Compassion is considered a weakness. The politicking and incessant backstabbing is rampant. The people who joined likely weren't naturally like that, but elements of the system have forced them to adapt. Either you learn to be a predator or you became prey. It is a sick social world that they live in.

Quote
Malcolm Wesley Wrest
It is REALLY difficult to see what it happening to yourself within the JC's (or any cult for that matter),

You tell yourself that you'd never became entrapped in such a thing, and that the JC's are a "democracy"

but still succumb to the behaviour that is expected of you... and respond to the "wise direction" of the leader, under pressure,

...Knowing that (internally to the cult's paradigms) it is all so "reasonable"

in the light of the wider "spiritual battle" you are engaged in against the wiles of "Satan"

In other words: it's hard to see the picture, when you are part of the frame.

Right, Mal?

It seems like whatever it is afflicting most of the remaining JCs is not just thought reform; most of them probably had serious issues, even before McKay got to them.

For example, Ulrike mentioning she had a brain tumor removed when she was six! There is something psychologically imbalanced with virtually the whole lot of the JCs!

Quote
Ulrike
When I was 6 years old I had a brain tumor. I can't say that I really knew who God was or that I prayed to get healed. My parents probably did. The operation was successful and now after years I believe that God already was in control by not letting me die, so that now I can follow Jesus and am thankful that I'm still alive.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

These types of statements will piss some people off and I am going to be accused of "victim-bashing" again; I know I will get the lecture, "but normal people join cults too", and all that. But we all know some of the common issues that have been identified about JC members and JC groupies, the common denominators, as it were. Anger-management issues, pissed off at parents, pissed off at the world, plain old gullibility and naivete, not very bright/educated, borderline personality featurs, and what have you.

Quote
Ulrike
Just yesterday I read a chapter in Survivors which talks about people choosing to be with the Christians (Tribulation Force)instead of the government of the Antichrist.
It says that a few people towards the end of the tribulation still decided to join the Christians although they don't really know what they believed. But they knew that they believe that the system of the Antichrist is not the right thing so they turn towards the Tribulation force (the Christians) who have the faith to do the right thing.

It struck me that they could see the evil in the system and didn't want to go with the majority.
Survivors is just a novel (about what may happen), but I think this part of the book shows how people who have a little bit of faith (and a lot of courage) can do the right thing.

OK, Ulrike, but the BIBLE also shows how people who have a little bit of faith (and a lot of courage) can do the right thing. Why not read it instead?

So the writings of DM seem to be more important than Scripture, in the JC world. That is to say, that all of the Bible's teachings are to be understood (for them) through the lens of DM's worldview. Pathetic.

Most of the JCs just seem from the neck up. And if they suddenly have kidney problems (with their one remaining kidney) they will be dead from the neck down as well.

Seems to me that DM prefers not to have members in his cult who are very sophisticated in their critical-thinking skills. Easier to control them that way.

You know, most old COG/Family members never met or even saw David Berg? A lot of them did not so much as know what he looked like, until after his death. And most JCs do not interact directly with DM very much...does everybody take my meaning there?

I think a major dent has been made in the JCs. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: people like DM are their own worst enemies.

Most of the work of undermining the JCs' ability to recruit new members, he does for us. Thanks, Dave!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2010 06:56AM by zeuszor.

Dear Zeusor,

Thank you for your many thoughtful remarks....

If Ulrike can admire David's work in "Survivors" (a third rate rip off of Le Haye) she has far worse problems than that of any historical recuperation from a "brain tumour" ...it's a SHOCKINGLY poor effort on McKays part...God! That is sad.... for her to "admire" that and quote it as "guidance" is tantamount to a repudiation of intelligent thought!... part of the "survival of the fawning twits" that as you correctly assert, Zeusor, is how one quickly "learns" to become, after prolonged exposure to the abusive world of sociopath McKay... dare she voice admiration of a "non-approved" source, though, relations with demi-god McKay would rapidly sour....with all its' consequences..

Thus, a low and grovelling profile....for the poor young woman!

McKay doesn't seem to respect his members very much the way he is constantly putting them down and correcting them. What is most shocking to me is how badly he treats new visitors to the site. He attacks for no reason at all acting as though these people are all after him some how.

I think McKay has fallen to pieces mentally as seriously, he is now exchanging the most laughable conspiracy theories with someone that should be under lock and key. That little someone has been making some video clips that make Osama look friendly and Manson look sane. Can anyone believe that she is actually sending these clips to a womans job and to all the catholic churches in order to try to damage careers and reputations? When she posted here as dsm, I thought she was bad enough but now paired with McKay, she seems dangerous and beyond anything the average person would ever imagine. McKay supports any abuse of people he sees as threats or people he considers his foes so he does all he can to keep her acting for him but everyone knows that when she's not useful he will distance himself from the craziness. McKay has enough foes that it should keep his little friend busy for a while but one of the two will go into breakdown/meltdown and the other will denounce them and make some video clips to vilify the other. Enemies and foes are what McKay loves to create and that would seem to be all of the free world minus 11 people he still owns. Of that 11, I expect there are quite a few who question McKay's disgraceful public displays of viciousness.

It's so great to see his cult going under so that his remaining few victims can have lives outside the glare of McKay. It's cool that Roland G. and Sue G. must have passed along their "how to dump a cult leader" tips to those who are left. I imagine McKay is pretty humiliated in his own way. 2 other Jesus Christians visit this site so that is 2 more that want answers and likely want out. McKay is a very insecure little man as I see it, he doesn't handle rejection well. He surely doesn't handle being shown up by any women and I don't think he even likes women at all. Look at his wifes body language...she looks so detached and removed, like she isn't there and doesn't care. She looks worn out and beaten down. Who could live with this nasty troll man and have joy? I think he's frightened of women actually and this is why he doesn't want women around and explains his Jezebel Spirit ravings. I think he would prefer an all male group.

I do agree that McKay seems to attract troubled, disenfranchised people and I think he knows how to use them by giving each what they need. Affection, acceptance, a fatherly figure and of course then he withdraws these offerings when they displease him. We can see this currently with his little friend, the one who is willing to attack viciously to please McKay. She needs attention and acceptance as she writes about her life as an outcast and how she has never been able to sustain long term relationships. So he gives her attention and she will do anything to keep the spotlight on herself and please "daddy". It is quite quite ghastly to see two old people acting like school yard bullies and I believe the few remaining Jesus Christian's there are will feel that way as well-ashamed and disgusted- but won't say anything as it keeps McKay from micro managing them and holding his grievance meetings long distance.

I think that within a year there will be no more (dis) organized Jesus Christian Cult because all the members will have dumped McKay. He's his own worst enemy and therefore he is our friend because he is doing such great work at driving new people away and also he's turning off his own few members so YOU JUST BE YOU, MCKAY!!!! Just be yourself and there will be no need for anyone to bother with you much.

I wish all the members healing.

You are very correct Malcolm. McKay's book is a shocking rip off. I'm amazed he didn't end up in court over it. His books are such junk. I had to laugh as one web site was talking about not being able to get 75p for them.

Quote from:[chickeninabighat.blogspot.com]

................Dave McKay uses the main character to live out all his fantasies - battling the AntiChrist, torching the authorities with his firey breath, convincing lesbians, atheists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and Baptists to work together through his holy ability to SHOUT REALLY LOUDLY...


I think several of the Jesus Christians posted to defend their leader. Mind, it could be McKay posting to defend his own junk since we all know how much McKay likes to play dress up as Miss Anita Foster. McKay would not hesitate to either order his tribe to post on his behalf or to simply fake being someone other than the disgraced McKay.

I really find McKay's treatment of people fairly repulsive and the fact he continues to set himself out there to be some Christian example is repugnant.

The sooner the cult falls and Cherry McKay leaves him in the dust, the better for all.