If I understand your question correctly, Blackhat, I would say the original COG material is collectible and worth obtaining, though I myself do not own any of it.

What COG/Family stuff I did have ("Loving Jesus" for instance), I donated to NEIRR.

Bound sets of the Mo Letters (when available) sell for hundreds of dollars via Amazon or Ebay.

There was a a lot of purging of certain books and other material at times (like Davidito, which I have never seen), so that authorities wouldn't have evidence of their sexual activities.

This literature is becoming quite rare, as it was referred to as BAR (or "burn after reading") material.

[jcs.xjcs.org]

Jezebel writes re: NIAMH...

I have just posted the message below on the JC's forum. I feel a liitle bad about it (though doubtless it will be deleted within about 3 minutes, in accordance with standard JC freedom of speech policy) but it's all true:

I am surprised and disappointed to find that Alf is posting advice to a vulnerable person. For those who are not aware, Alf's mother is a lesbian and this broke up her marriage, led to him being bullied at school and subsequently having a breakdown - when he encountered the JC's.

Given the above, he is totally unqualified to be giving any advice (spiritual or practical) to anyone.

I apologise if this post seems overly harsh and I know Alf means well, but advice of this nature should only ever be given by a qualified professional and not by someone who himself has major issues.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

zeuszor:

Posting personal attacks like this one from another message board is not meaningful here.

It's off-topic.

The focus of this thread is Jesus Christians and Dave McKay.

Personal background information like this is not really relevant.

Dear Moderator,

I would definitely agree with you in principle, and I certainly believe that this forum does not need to regurgitate the sickness of others, however looking at the posting by Alf that Jezebel is responding to in more detail...(a brief extract below..)

What we have been encouraging you to do, Niamh, is to make a decision. If you feel you are currently where you should be, then throw yourself into life there. If you feel God is asking you to take a step of faith and meet up with us, or other more committed people, then throw yourself into that. If a mustard seed is all you have, then use it whichever way you feel is best. If we're lost for words, it may be an indication that actions are what are most needed.

Alf in this exchange, appears to me to be dealing with someone suffering from severe depression and is self-interestedly doing nothing more than attempting to position himself (and hence membership in David McKays' empire) as the "solution"...it's simply out and out manipulation on Alf's part, of someone who is momentarily vulnerable...

(It's a variation on the Children of God "false dilemma" ploy that David stole from Berg (Do you have enough faith in God to come and try out with us? If you seriously want to face up to your shortcomings....then you know that we are only here to help you...) that you may be familiar with from your work with cults across the board...)

Snivelling little Alf is simply fishing for McKay here, and I must support the general thrust of Jezebels comments....(if not quite the specific details....a homosexual parent would seem far less pyschologically damaging to me in the long run than a hetrosexual McKay, would be..but anyway...!)..

...not only is Alf absolutely ill-equipped in "advising" Niamh, Alf has absolutely NO OTHER INTEREST in Niamh than how she may now be potentially recruited, in her current circumstances "open to suggestion"...

...a disgusting example of just how sick one becomes,
if exposed to the JesusChristians over any length of time....


(Thank you Jezebel for pointing this snippet out...)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2010 12:04AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Malcolm, Brian, Sorry to disagree, but I am 100 % with RRmoderator/Mr Ross on this. In fact I hope he might go a little further and edit the comment to take out the personal information.

And for any interested parties who don't feel able for whatever reason to read the X site, but are able/willing to read this one, you may be interested to know that several x site members have already spoken up to defend Alfs' privacy.

Giving relevant details about group practices can be helpful if you are worried about recruiting.
But information that seems mainly designed to give pain to Alf by revealing his past/ personal history and family issues is neither appropriate, useful nor kind.

Nothing will be edited out or deleted.

Please stay focused on the topic of this thread, which is "Jesus Christians" and Dave McKay.

It isn't necessary to discuss someone's mother and their family problems in such a detailed way here.

It's a given that cults often exploit people at a vulnerable time, using someone's personal difficulties as a recruitment opportunity.

Nothing more need be said to detail this.

If someone seems to be playing the role of a professional counselor, it can simply be pointed out that they are not and therefore not qualified to offer counseling concerning personal problems.

It is not necessary to bash someone regarding their family and personal issues.

Well Yasmin you may just need to speak to Kevin directly (who as you know privately asked Mr Ross to delete this entire thread when he became uncomfortable with the direction it was taking)...and together perhaps the two of you may be able to somehow arrange to "edit" the offending comment into suitable conformity...

...I again, also must say that I agree with the policy of the moderator, however having personally also met Jezebel, I know her to be a charming and intelligent young woman, who would never deliberately seek to atagonize others with simple vitriol (that is, engage in the tactics of the JCs!) and who no doubt was only looking to alert Niamh to the manipulation that was being attempted on her....

If she may have done so a little "clumsily" in the view of some in this instance, I hope Jasmin, that you would kind enough to apply the generous interpretation of any unintentionally wayward comments that "senior figures" in the Xjc site are routinely bestowed with....

I also do not want to go into Alfs' background....however I otherwise really care not a whit for his "feelings"....(as "cult Alf" is the only personality we regrettably are dealing with here (the real Alf having long ago been repressed below his survival identity in the JC's) ...

However I DO care for Niamh.....

....If you need some support Niamh, as the moderator has remarked, you may wish to seek some professional counseling (with those who are NOT simply interested in entrapping you in years of involuntary servitude, once they have persuaded you to have donated every cent you own to their "common purse"...) or even just the opportunity to speak with a "neutral observer"....

....however I must say that a wonderful cure for manic depression is to have had the joyous experience of walk out on David McKay, turning your back on the claustrophobic micro-management of the smallest details of your life and to have the freedom to develop healthy relationships with other "non-JC approved" individuals...

....in order that you may, at the very least, experience this vicariously Niamh,..

...this celebratory little number TRULY really captures what it feels like,
....thumbing your nose at at McKay and his cronies,
and the joyous reward of ultimately finding a genuinely loving friend or two, of your own!!!!

[www.youtube.com]

"Free at last....What a blast!!"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2010 03:00AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Malcolm, no, I did not know that Kevin asked for this thread to be deleted. Fair enough though.
And I agree with you that I am sure Jezebel meant well.
I understand that you do not care about current members Malcolm.
And if I am misinterpreting please let me know, but my understanding is that Zeuszor also feels the same way.
That is something I don't really understand. Surely Malcolm, you must have known worked with and cared about some of the current members,as you were a long term JC?
And though my addition may be wrong, i have assumed you were an adult when Kevin was a child/teenager in the group?
I know the adults in my group were very formative influences, whose influences good and bad, have effected much of my life.
I have seen good people slip into groups and sometimes never leave.You like me have experienced the kind of thinking that prevails in high demand groups; the bounded choice.

For me personally, in the end it is the people, the individual people who matter. In group life, the individual is never as important as the "religious theme" in fact peoples welfare, and family relationships are sometimes required to be sacrificed as proof of devotion.

And I hated in my group seeing people being attacked who had no way of defending themselves.The JC I believe are a group that practices "third stage grievances" Maybe you can relate to this? To be able to defend those who need defending without the need to stand silently witnessing,unable or unwilling to speak.That is freedom.

Sorry; should have said I do agree with your advice to NIAMH, and appreciate that you are concerned for her.Hopefully she will think about things and find a counselor who can help her.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2010 04:05AM by yasmin.

Quote
rrmoderator
It is not necessary to bash someone regarding their family and personal issues.

RR, I never bashed anybody, nor did I offer any commentary at all about the post in question. I simply cut and pasted a quote in order to preserve it, as I expected it to be deleted at any moment. Sure enough, it was deleted from the JC forum, but not from Kevin's support group. (Yes, if it were up to Kevin, all of this thread, as well as the RR database entry on the JCs, would be deleted. You cannot BS me, Kevin.)

As well, I figured that Admin would delete the quote too, and now I see that they are applying the group pressure to Jezebel to do it herself. Now that it's here at RR's, even if I wanted to I could not remove the quote. It is preserved forever. That was my only object in posting it here.

And I really do not care very much about preserving the privacy of "Cult Alf" (as Mal so aptly called him) any more than I care about preserving McKay's.

But I do care about protecting the privacy of Alf's mother. That's a different matter entirely.

I say that the imperative to protect Naimh's autonomy and self-volition overrides any (theoretical, abstractly ethical) need to protect the privacy of the deployed agent of a cult (namely, Alf) who is attempting to entrap her.

To me, letting the general public know that the JCs are in their neighborhoods, attempting to recruit their children, is not much different than letting a given neighborhood know that a convicted child molester just moved in down the block.

All I did was preserve a quote. Jezebel may well have helped prevent the JCs from recruiting one more vulnerable soul into their cabal, and for this she deserves our thanks.

Again, please stay on topic, which is "Jesus Christians" and Dave McKay.

Posts should focus on that.