I would also like to thank you Matilda, for having put the effort into your post that you have....it is of course always valuable to be reminded of how legitimate the allegations made about David Mckay are....He will of course (insanely) tell himself that any "minor infractions" that might arise in the course of the "reign" of the "Kingdom of Heaven" are simply "justified" by the "exigencies" he faces in the struggle for the "ultimate good"...

I heartily concur with Dogmother....the dishonesty that Joseph is being required to engage in here, is taking its toll on Josephs belief in the "rightness" of it all....hence charlatan McKay's attempt to dupe Joe into thinking communication with his family is "stupid" and that blind commitment to the JesusChristians is "intelligent".... for David of course, the money is the lure, that keeps him risking Joseph membership...

As David has intimated, I utterly endorse the Johnsons' efforts to resist the "extortion" that is being attempted against them....Reinehardt has already been recompensed for any injuries he suffered....(hypocritical) JesusChristian that he is, he is now (at David McKay's bidding) simply seeking to profit from the whole episode...!!

I will re-present some of Matilda's post here in order to keep it foremost. David McKay is ABSOLUTELY indicted by the despicable he chooses to engage in....

A destructive cult is one that uses destructive mind control. According to Steve Hassan [see disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan below], destructive mind control can be understood in terms of four basic components, which form the acronym BITE:
Behaviour Control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control

It is important to understand that destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present.
I. Behavior Control
1. Regulation of individual's physical reality
a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations

Dave regulates who members live with. Members are isolated from society and generally from their former friends, families and anyone else who disagrees with the JC’s.
They are in effect isolated from outsiders and rarely encounter outsiders without their buddy or partner to keep them in check
They are to provision food mainly by bin raiding
All proceeds from litnessing go to the group. The individual does not make financial decision alone and is dependent on the group.
The little time that is spent on leisure is planned, heavily directed and spent with the group. There is therefore very little real ‘ free’ time in this group.

2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals

Intensive group sessions involving indoctrination by leaders and intense grievance sessions

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions

Members cannot suddenly decide to have a day off or to do anything autonomous. They need to seek counsel and permission. In theory decisions are made collectively but in practise Dave manipulates many decisions.

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors
Dave learned this from the COG. Members write regular reports on their thoughts, feelings and activities. They also assess their own commitment in terms of a percentage to the Virgin army and 144k vision.
5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).
Members are rewarded for reaching litnessing targets through treats ( desert, a visit to a theme park etc) and punished by going without meals or missing a leisure activity. Punishment could be more extreme; members have reported being thrown out of the community at a weak point and their passport being withheld.
6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails
Individuality is judged to be ‘out of the spirit’ and a grievance or worse may result.
7. Rigid rules and regulations
Rigid rules and routines are encouraged.
8. Need for obedience and dependency
Disobedience is judged to be ‘out of the spirit’ and subject to severe correction.


II. Information Control
1. Use of deception
a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable or unacceptable
Dave discourages his members from reading here by labelling posters negatively, misidentifying them and promoting an irrational fear of them. He has got it wrong every time but it does not stop his feeble attempts
c. Outright lying

Dave does all of the above and encourages his group to do likewise.


2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don't have time to think
The JC’s do restrict information mainly through keeping recruits so busy and dependant that they cannot cope. They do not encourage members to meet with former members and will often interpret the news/ information for them.
3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what
Several examples of all of these in the JC’s
Information has been withheld from members, including mail/ messages from families

4. Spying on other members is encouraged
a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control


Telling tales encouraged challenging those who are ‘out of the spirit;. Two by two partnerships.


b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership
Yes, through oral and written reports and grilling sessions.
5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
Dave generates a mass of literature, and writes reams of propaganda on their website, forum and through booklets and articles.
Dave loves to confuse and confound in order to control.


a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources
Numerous examples of this. Literature is usually sold on the street when the JC’s request a monetary contribution for printing. Sometimes lit is given away but this is not the norm.
6. Unethical use of confession
a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution
Numerous examples of this

III. Thought Control
1. Need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth"
a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking With us or against us
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

Polarised thinking.Fear vs Faith

2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".Parts of the JC vocab designed to encourage black and white thinking and to restrict thought eg Systemites, rebels, churchies, time bandits, pigs,

3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.
4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts
5. Critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy discouraged Yes
6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful
JC creed considered superior.Discourage emotional responses, emotional expression and emotional ties.

2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader's or the group's.
Individual often considered ‘out of the spirit’

3. Excessive use of guilt
a. Identity guilt
1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
2. Your family
3. Your past
4. Your affiliations
5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions
Recruits accused of allowing themselves to be held back by their past, associates, family or friends. This may be done consciously or subconsciously. Recruits often work very hard in an effort to prove they have ‘forsaken all’
Joseph is currently under pressure to prove that he has really forsaken his family ties , Dave has hinted that Joseph is too 'intelligent' to engage with his family and that he would be 'stupid' to do so. Ex JC's have been through similar experiences but that did not stop Dave turning on them later
b. Social guilt
c. Historical guilt
4. Excessive use of fear
a. Fear of thinking independently
b. Fear of the "outside" world
c. Fear of enemies
d. Fear of losing one's "salvation"
e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
f. Fear of disapproval

The JC system currently encourages excessive and irrational fear of outsiders, to the point where they are labelled negatively as’ rebels’, ‘ reprobates’, apostates, ‘witches’ etc

5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.
Dave pushes the buttons expertly Dave is now aware that community members can read this site and the XJCS site so he has started a major offensive to categorise both of these sites as ' Hate' sites. In an attempt to prove that the group is being #persecuted' he has invented personalities and posters and tried to muddy the waters with regard to both sites.
6. Ritual and often public confession of "sins". Yes
7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.
a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group's perspective, people who leave are: "weak;" "undisciplined;" "unspiritual;" "worldly;" "brainwashed by family, counselors;" seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.
Recruits are warned that they will become bitter, rebellious and will be in spiritual or physical danger if they leave the group.
They shun the XJCS completely unless they are considered' friendlies' and can assist or support the JC's in some way. The COG had their Kings, queens and the JC's have the same system.
The truth is that as long as they remain IN the group, they are endangering themselves physically, emotionally, psychologically and spiritually.
Exit brings freedom but it is actually easier to remain subservient and a follower than to walk away and make your own choices in life.

Disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan

The Ross Institute of New Jersey/May 2013

See [www.culteducation.com]

The inclusion of news articles within the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI) archives, which mention and/or quote Steven Hassan, in no way suggests that RI recommends Mr. Hassan or recognizes him in any way.

News articles that mention Steve Hassan have been archived for historical purposes only due to the information they contain about controversial groups, movements and/or leaders.

RI does not recommend Steven Hassan.

RI has received serious complaints about Steve Hassan concerning his fees. Mr. Hassan does not publicly disclose his fee schedule, but according to complaints Steve Hassan has charged fees varying from $250.00 per hour or $2,500.00 per day to $500.00 per hour or $5,000.00 per day. This does not include Mr. Hassan's expenses, which according to complaints can be quite substantial.

Steven Hassan has charged families tens of thousands of dollars and provided questionable results. One recent complaint cited total fees of almost $50,000.00. But this very expensive intervention effort ended in failure.

Dr. Cathleen Mann, who holds a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994 points out, "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results..."

Steve Hassan has at times suggested to potential clients that they purchase a preliminary report based upon what he calls his "BITE" model. These "BITE reports" can potentially cost thousands of dollars.

See [corp.sec.state.ma.us]

Steve Hassan runs a for-profit corporation called "Freedom of Mind." Mr. Hassan is listed as the corporate agent for that business as well as its president and treasurer.

RI does not recommend "Freedom of Mind" as a resource.

RI also does not list or recommend Steve Hassan's books.

To better understand why Mr. Hassan's books are not recommended by RI read this detailed review of his most recently self-published book titled "Freedom of Mind."

See [www.cultnews.com]

Steve Hassan's cult intervention methodology has historically raised concerns since its inception. The book "Recovery from Cults" (W.W. Norton & Co. pp. 174-175) edited by Dr. Michael Langone states the following:

"Calling his approach 'strategic intervention [sic] therapy,' Hassan (1988) stresses that, although he too tries to communicate a body of information to cultists and to help them think independently, he also does formal counseling. As with many humanistic counseling approaches, Hassan’s runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly, on the framework’s foundational ambiguity and thereby manipulating the client."

RI has also learned that Mr. Hassan has had dual-relationships with his counseling clients. That is, clients seeing Mr. Hassan for counseling may also do professional cult intervention work with him.

Professionals in the field of cultic studies have also expressed concerns regarding Steven Hassan's use of hypnosis and Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP).

Based upon complaints and the concerns expressed about Mr. Hassan RI does not recommend Steve Hassan for counseling, intervention work or any other form of professional consultation.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 08:57PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
free of DM

Quote
paul_connor
quotin Dave de mindy bendah!!!

And they all congregate on the X site, where each one sings a different part in the choir, but it all harmonises in one word: hate (with "murder" echoing somewhere in the background, just quietly enough that no one quite knows which singers are saying it).

Dave

Posts: 2933
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Sydney, Australia


What an absolute delusional fool! Get this old dude a good physiatrist.

Paul

Iff Dave rote ' Killers for Christ' wots iz prolemo wid it zo!

Did ee 4got

Free,

I disagree totally with Dave . I have not witnessed the hate he describes on this RR or the X site , from the majority of poster. There is only one poster that I can recall posting anything resembling those sentiments and he was challenged very strongly here and on the X site.

[www.youtube.com]

As far as violence goes, here we have a 'Whipping' which Dave carried out for religious reasons of his own devising, but in some way, it connected in his mind with Christ, who took the punishment for the sins of the world, except the JC version was a nasty version who prescribed a punishment, dished it out and then proceeded to legislation.


They could have called this ' Whipping for Christ' or ' Whipping for God' or 'Whipped faith' or whatever, but it would still be as obscene.

[www.youtube.com]

Do you have material from the JC's called Killers for Christ?
Where can I read the 'killers for Christ' material ?
Please post a link if it exists.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2009 03:46AM by matilda.

I disagree totally with Dave . I have not witnessed the hate he describes on this RR or the X site , from the majority of poster. There is only one poster that I can recall posting anything resembling those sentiments and he was challenged very strongly here and on the X site.

Who could that be, I wonder? Just kidding; it's me you're writing of, right?

I reckon that I've learned to tone it down a tad, while still expressing myself in a robust fashion. And I cannot bear it when somebody tries to tell me what I am and am not allowed to express.

Anyway, all I'm really doing is writing publicly what a lot of people think and feel privately, but for whatever reasons cannnot or will not express themselves.

My agenda is more along along the lines of education and prevention, to the end of undermining the JCs' success at recruiting/stealing other people's kids/family members, and not so much trying to get those who are in, out.

In my opinion, anybody that thinks that it's possible to get through to DM with "logic and reason" or some form of "negotiation" is like unto a person who thinks that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. McKay is scum in my book.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2009 05:19AM by zeuszor.

Dear Matilda,

If you put out a request on the xjcs.jcs site, I believe that you'd find someone who would be able to assist you track the "Killers for Christ" document down...

....some deviant drivel on the level of "committment" that the JesusChristians should be prepared to "show for the cause" I believe.....


As the JesusChristians are obviously so concerned about Reineharts "rights....these days...

An interesting idea would be see how the Kenyan volunteer who was whipped, might go about sueing the JesusChristians for the injuries he suffered at their hands (the "legal waiver" that David might harp on, that the gentleman concerned, consented to being so treated, would be of little avail I suspect, as it was a coercive situation...(agree to subject yourself to this or else.....)...I think Betty's father might be interested enough to follow the matter through.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2009 08:15PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

A rather odd request. Does anyone have any materials relating to the following ideas:

Cannibals for Christ

Cockroaches for Christ

[jesuschristians.net]

Both are to be found here.

Thank you but the links are either dead or there is some problem my end.

[jesuschristians.net]

COCKROACHES FOR CHRIST

by Cherry (as told to Dave, December, 2000)

It would be great if we could attract more members and become a force to be reckoned with in today's world. We would be lying if we tried to argue that we do not want to grow. But God has shown me something through a dream, which may relate to the importance of being small.

Consider all the biggest animals on earth. Virtually all of them are either extinct (the dinosaurs) or endangered (whales, elephants, tigers, gorillas, etc.) But very few of the smallest animals (especially insects) are in danger of becoming extinct.

Scientists have stated that the humble (and hated) cockroach is probably most capable of surviving an all-out nuclear war. It has something to do with the insect's simple structure. Nuclear radiation shoots millions of tiny holes in the body, which ends up making some organs unworkable. But the cockroach can go on living, and grow back missing tissue, despite radiation that would wipe out more complex species.

And think about the impact that various species of animals have on yourself. Beautiful as they are, all the whales in the ocean are not likely to affect each of us so personally as cockroaches do. Giraffes, apes, and giant squids do not impact on our lives as much as an infestation of cockroaches in the kitchen or around our rubbish bins.

Sure, we hate the cockroaches, but we cannot deny the fact that, in one way or another, they have influenced each of us. And the same is true of tiny bands of zealously obedient Christians. We anger the establishment. And if they knew exactly where to strike and make us extinct, they would probably do so. But as long as we stay small, there will be millions of holes that we can run to and hide in.

When the Tribulation comes, the system heavyweights can dance the cucaracha as they try to stamp us out, but many (if not most) of us will escape into little cracks here and there, where we will survive to re-emerge and fight another day. We will keep coming back, like the plagues of Egypt, to torment them spiritually with our constant reminders of their disobedience to Jesus.

And it will only be possible because we did not grow into a huge organisation. So stay faithful, and take heart that you are part of something that is bigger than a single organism. You are part of God's faithful army of obedient individuals.

[jesuschristians.net]

CANNIBALS FOR CHRIST

(February, 1992)

Anthropologists have found very few behaviours that are condemned by every society. But one of them appears to be cannibalism. Though there are reports of cannibalism being practised by a number of tribes, close examination has revealed that they are largely based on information provided by enemies of the accused. It seems the ultimate insult to any group or society is to say that they eat human beings.

With this in mind, we turn to John 6:54-57 and hear Jesus say "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him." Why would he deliberately violate this most universal of all taboos? And what did he mean by such a teaching?

It is doubtful that anyone fully understands what Jesus was getting at. Tradition teaches that he was saying we must go to church meetings where we will sip wine and eat bread in memory of him. What an incredible leap from "eat my flesh and drink my blood"!

Catholics, unlike most Protestants (who cannot even tolerate the stigma attached to using real wine), say the wine and bread magically turn into blood and flesh during the mass. But anyone who has tasted real blood knows that it does not taste at all like blood. And unless Christ's body was made of flour and water, the communion wafer is as much a wafer after the hocus-pocus as it was before. At best, the "change" is only symbolic.

So what does it really mean to "eat" his flesh?

We have a theory based on the observation that in every area of discipleship Jesus asks us to consider the absolute, most extreme demand that he could possibly put on us... whether it is the last cent of our wealth, our last friend, or our last breath (e.g. Luke 14:26, and Luke 14:33). By telling us that we must (at least appear to) eat his flesh, Jesus seems to be taking a universally condemned practice (cannibalism) and to be challenging us to have the courage to break it. He is calling on us to let go of any traces of respectability that we may be clinging to. This is a huge challenge to people who pride themselves on being "good".

For years we had gloried in the fact that, as despised as we were, we were never seriously labelled a cult. And then we were called a cult on national TV. The rejection we experienced as a result of that broadcast showed us just how precious our reputation had become to us.

And, contrary to Matthew 6:1-4, we have at least let friends know when we have done things of a charitable nature. Why? Because we don't want people thinking we're lazy, selfish, or too heavenly to be any earthly good.

What would we do if people seriously thought we were cannibals? Could we handle it? Even some of his closest friends could not. (See John 6:60) Such is the rejection that goes with following Jesus.

We're not talking about the highly respected Jesus of the churches, but the despised flesh and blood Jesus of history. He was pure and innocent; yet he was treated as totally evil for us. Can we take up our cross and follow him?

(See also Respectability, and WWFJD?)