Well....so there's a name for it! Thanks Zeusor, yes, thats' what they do, alright...!

Early on, you tell yourself that all this dishonesty is "necessary" in order to somehow promote the Kingdom of Heaven and the wider public just aren't "ready" for the truth...

Later on, those who stay long term, simply stop comforting themselves with such concocted justifications...theres no longer any need as they have by this stage, just abandoned any of the idealism they once held....and live only for the "warm fuzzies" that David ever so occasionally doles out

My contention is that any attempt to appeal to the JCs from on the platform of logic and reason is more or less futile.

They are all simply far too personally invested in the group and individually have too much of an interest in believing in David McKay and the JCs to just simply leave at this point.

Walking away is simply impossible for a lot of them, outside of a literal miracle taking place.

I do not doubt that in the individual JCs' hearts, they are (or at least believe that they are) truly dedicated to Jesus and His teachings.

But at the same time, also in their hearts they wish that they could be superior, spiritually and personally, to the rest of Christendom.

They want to believe that they know something that we do not know, that they see something that we do not see, that they have figured out something that we have not apprehended.

And they are for the most trapped in this kind of self-reinforcing delusion.

They for the most part are unwilling or unable to admit to themselves, or to anybody else, that they could be wrong and possibly could have been misled by David McKay.

Better IMO to undermine their potential success in recruiting more kids than to try and get those who are in, out.

Do we ave a ' Dave called Su' on the jc site

[uk.youtube.com]

[uk.youtube.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

No, ....not that I'm aware of, Free of DM, ....but we DO have a Dave called "Cherry" on the jc site...

I guess that the experience with David may have somehow "strengthened" me (if that's what you are implying here) although I must say that I've come to now share some of Zeusors fatalism..... the "long-termers" in the JC's are largely lost altogether and have abandoned any need to reference themselves to anything other that what David blithely assures them(although I suspect childless Christine will ultimately have some form of nervous breakdown once David passes on, and she repeatedly tries to deny to herself, that it wasn't all just an (increasingly obvious) lie down the decades....)

....and "conversation" with them occurs in controlled forums where they can filter out information or personalities that discomfort them.....vainly imagining to themselves that they have "defended" the truths of the Gospel by denying others the opportunity to express their views without chimp like ridicule....by simply drowning out dissenting voices (David's own brother Robin for example) with the volume of their own self-important gas bagging....

What might one ultimately do with all the empty wind they spout, one wonders....[au.youtube.com]

There's something else that I noticed last night when studying more on the topic of David Berg, and what XFamily circles have termed "Bergisms."

[www.xfamily.org]

Has anybody else ever noticed how David (McKay, that is) peppers his communiques and teachings with the "Ha!" suffix to denote derision, or "as an interjection emoting amusement or hilarity in a given subject," or as well how he seems to have a habit of overusing exclamation points in his writings, JUST LIKE DAVID BERG?

Also there is DM's apparent preoccupation with thriftiness and saving; as well I have heard from various sources (this forum included) that DM is extremely "cheap," JUST LIKE DAVID BERG.

Rationing of toilet paper, saving every last bit of toothpaste, etc. Same kinds of things. Berg used literal rods, McKay uses whips. On and on the parallels go.

The JC teachings are mainly just paraphrased versions of the MO Letters, as I have described in earlier postings. More on that later. A website designed to further expand on and provide illustrations of these paraphrasings is "in the works."

There are so many similarities between the two them that one would think (other than in the the obvious, prurient ways, but even then, DM's preoccupation with masturbation is more than a little disturbing) David McKay is not just trying to emulate David Berg, he is trying to BE David Berg.

When I was on the JK show, DM started to babble about masturbation: "Who masturbates? Who masturbates?" He cried out while waving his hand up in the air as is to say "Me too!" Now I shall tell you about the exact context in which wanking was brought up as a topic for discussion. I remember it vividly, and that stuff never made it into the final cut, or therefore on the air.

It was close to the end of the show, and L was telling the audience about some of the odd particulars of JC doctrine; she told of how the males in the JCs are pressured into getting vasectomies, also she told about how DM encourages people to masturbate, not just that it was allowed, but encouraged. Of course all of the JCs on stage denied these things and said that she was lying.

L looked incredulous and disgusted. She said impatiently, "But it's on your website Dave. The whole world can read about it." Then DM said something like, "OK, I admit it. That's true. I masturbate. Who else masturbates? Who masturbates?" He was grinning and waving his arm in the air. Then he said "No, better yet, who in the audience HAS masturbated?"

There was a gasp of shock and disgust from the audience, a grumble of discomfort at DM's display of lack of self-control for shock value. L puckered her lips as if to express profound contempt. G. Baldwin shook his head ruefully. I simply stared at DM in amazement because I nearly literally couldn't believe what I was witnessing. J. Kyle told Dave that he was acting perverse and childish.

DM just giggled like he was pleased with himself, and the other JCs on stage laughed on cue also. It was a bizarre scene.

I think that DM must be somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, probably low-level Asperger's IMO. His lack of empathy, trouble with "theory of mind," his complete self-centeredness, his high intelligence and hyperlexicality, talent as a writer, lack of impulse control and social skills, it's all there. I say a tad of Apserger's. Add to that a deeply ingrained personality disorder (NPD) on top of all that and we have a very very dangerous combination.

And I am not making fun of people with Asperger's, either. By no means. Mozart, Einstein and Ben Franklin probably had Asperger's too. In some respects, it can be thought of as an asset. People with Asperger's are usually highly intelligent and are capable of thinking far "outside of the box" in a way that neurotypical people cannot. But you get a person with Apserger's and NPD and you have a dangerous combination; you have someone with a complete and total lack of empathy, and little regard for the rules and norms of society, and a completely self-centered worldview. You have a very sick person.

It was so surreal to observe this man, apparently a high-functioning autistic, and obviously a completely narcissistic religious nut with OCD and a dirty mind, up close and personal. I never thought I'd wind up on TV with McKay. In ENGLAND, with DM, on British television. I actually skipped going to my own (Episcopal) confirmation to do it, and never was confirmed. The bishop understood though. I had met Sue before, years ago, and she was as fanatical and accusatory as I remember her being back in '02. Cherry never looked me in the eye, or looked directly at me at all for that matter. DM approached me, thanked me for coming, and extended his hand to shake. Actually thanked me for coming when the filming was over, he did.

All David ever did was elbow his way into the forefront, try and take credit for other people's labors and talk as if he were the one who did all the work.

Just like David Berg pimped sex with the FF-ing, David McKay similarly pimps spare organs and thinly-disguised and unoriginal, derivative books.

Instead of pimping women, his version of creating a "living sacrifice" is in pimping kidneys, liver lobes, and eggs.

He hijacks established movements and others' ideas; once a given group of people gets wise to him, he simply moves on and finds a new group to feed from, a new host to leech off of, so to speak.

He's been trying to outdo Billy Graham and be some great man of God all his life.

The best he's been able to do put the Church down as a bunch of hypocrites and liars, and ride on the coattails of others' works and successes.

No more though; that is over now.

He is ruthless, shameless, a man without empathy or conscience, a pathologically destructive and malignant individual.

He is a parasite of the lowest order.

He is a damnable snake.

He is evil.

Nobody will miss him when he leaves his body except for the people in his group and a handful of others.

If one wanted to help try and make the world a better place, then one would be better off joining Greenpeace, Food Not Bombs, or the damn Army rather than joining the Jesus Christians.

Dear Zeusor,

Here's a "thought" from Mark Dombeck and the American Psychiatric Association....

Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

- has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
- requires excessive admiration
- has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
- is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
- lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
- shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Does anything here sound at all remotely familiar?.....

You wrote....

When I was on the JK show, DM started to babble about masturbation: "Who masturbates? Who masturbates?" He cried out while waving his hand up in the air as is to say "Me too!" Now I shall tell you about the exact context in which wanking was brought up as a topic for discussion. I remember it vividly, and that stuff never made it into the final cut, or therefore on the air.

It was close to the end of the show, and L was telling the audience about some of the odd particulars of JC doctrine; she told of how the males in the JCs are pressured into getting vasectomies, also she told about how DM encourages people to masturbate, not just that it was allowed, but encouraged. Of course all of the JCs on stage denied these things and said that she was lying.

L looked incredulous and disgusted. She said impatiently, "But it's on your website Dave. The whole world can read about it." Then DM said something like, "OK, I admit it. That's true. I masturbate. Who else masturbates? Who masturbates?" He was grinning and waving his arm in the air. Then he said "No, better yet, who in the audience HAS masturbated?"

There was a gasp of shock and disgust from the audience, a grumble of discomfort at DM's display of lack of self-control for shock value. L puckered her lips as if to express profound contempt. G. Baldwin shook his head ruefully. I simply stared at DM in amazement because I nearly literally couldn't believe what I was witnessing. J. Kyle told Dave that he was acting perverse and childish.

DM just giggled like he was pleased with himself, and the other JCs on stage laughed on cue also. It was a bizarre scene.

Oh God,....this is just so, so "passe" on Davids' part...infantile behaviour that he has engaged in for decades now...he is giggling to himself, because in his demented little mind he believes that he has "scored a point", somehow "exposed" the wider world as dishonest and then by contrast, brought (undeserved!) attention to his own moral "rectitude", David imagines that he has fought the "good fight" by making some obscure observation about the reluctance of many to discuss the practice of masturbation which he churlishly raises for the very reason of its vulgarity, and which thus;

somehow condones him for grubbily betraying his own family to illegally hold onto the filthy little kingdom he calls home,

which exonerates him for the hundreds of thousands of dollars he has extracted from the lively hood of others, (when they forsook everything to follow "David", the countless years of unpaid labour devoted to the promotion of McKay, the "cost reimbursement" cash from the organ donations that ends up in his greedy little hands, via the bank accounts he retains in his name or his control),

which excuses him for defrauding "systemites", emotionally blackmailing families, while he poisons the minds of their children against them,

which justifies his prostituting the teachings of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount into a perversion of his own self-worship (ONLY David McKay lives by his own (self-serving) definition of "living by faith" and ONLY those obedient to him are in "servitude" and "submission" to God.....)


David would love for the world to be so preoccupied with the inconsequential gnats
he loudly "masturbates" over in self important ecstasy

that it is distracted from the camels he is furiously happily "humping" in the meantime...........

Matthew 23:24

Yes, Malcolm, the best disinfectant is the light of day.

Here's another thought from the DSM-IV.


DSM-IV DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER

A.Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B.Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D.There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).

E.There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

F.Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.

GILLBERG'S CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER

1.Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction
(at least two of the following)
(a) inability to interact with peers
(b) lack of desire to interact with peers
(c) lack of appreciation of social cues
(d) socially and emotionally inappropriate behavior

2.All-absorbing narrow interest
(at least one of the following)
(a) exclusion of other activities
(b) repetitive adherence
(c) more rote than meaning

3.Imposition of routines and interests
(at least one of the following)
(a) on self, in aspects of life
(b) on others

4.Speech and language problems
(at least three of the following)
(a) delayed development
(b) superficially perfect expressive language
(c) formal, pedantic language
(d) odd prosody, peculiar voice characteristics
(e) impairment of comprehension including misinterpretations of literal/implied meanings

5.Non-verbal communication problems
(at least one of the following)
(a) limited use of gestures
(b) clumsy/gauche body language
(c) limited facial expression
(d) inappropriate expression
(e) peculiar, stiff gaze

6.Motor clumsiness: poor performance on neurodevelopmental examination

(All six criteria must be met for confirmation of diagnosis.)

You know DM better than I, in the sense that you have had more personal interaction with him.

Does any of this sound remotely familiar to you? I say either Asperger's or PDD-NOS. In any case, it's got to be neurological with DM.

There's other stuff too, other recollections that I have from the JK filming pertaining to things that the McKays said about their progeny and the Split, but I'll not write of that much here out of respect and sensitivity to Kevin.

Suffice to say that on that day, it became very manifestly obvious to me that in David's mind, whatever situation that comes up is always the fault of somebody other than himself.

Everybody other than David is lazy, undisciplined, ungrateful, lying, mentally defective, etc.

He on JK had, and has to this day, no sense of accountability for his actions whatsoever, just zero.

But DM and Cherry, those were spooky people for me to be around.

DM and I shook hands, and I felt as if I needed a shower afterward.

They just seemed wooden, and their mannerisms were stilted, like a couple of untalented actors.

Like I've written before, they seemed like a couple of audio-animatronic robots.

Especially Cherry. IMO she's just as cold as her husband.

Malcolm, do you see Cherry as a victim or as an accomplice?

You do ask difficult questions, Zeusor!

Clearly, she is both....as are many of the other "long-termers"....with time however, I think that one would have to surmise that their "legal liability" for the behaviours they engage in, increases, and that they definitely become more "villian" than "unwitting spectator"......Criminally insane is how I would see David....(...and here I acknowledge that at the time I was a member of the JC's some element of humanity still remained....he has just become more and more calloused to the behaviour he "has to" engage in,...)

Cherry would definitely have to be seen as an accessory to David's predation now....I am reminded of Fritz Adler's wife....(the Austrian man who imprisoned his daughter and isolated his children from her, keeping them for his own sexual gratification, for years on end)...

Fritz would have told himself that he's really acting in the child's "best interests" and tried to persuade himself, that no-one is really "unhappy"
(..after all, he feeds them, keeps a roof over their heads and "loves" them.....)


....and what was the wife telling herself down all the years....

he may have a few faults, but he's been my husband all down the years....

there's no-one else to turn to without incriminating myself....

if I go along with it all, I'll be treated respectfully by him,....

no-one is seriously hurt by it all....

thoughts that I imagine occur to Cherry, time and time again.....!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2009 03:37PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

I would content that there are as many reasons that people join groups in general (such as the Jesus Christians) as there are people.

I would further contend that there are a number of factors, a whole myriad of reasons that would drive somebody to want to join the JCs (in their present-day, post 1998 incarnation) specifically, and these people are joining without having given the appropriate informed consent, are being subjected in the group to a constant bait and switch, and are trapped in an abusive and controlling situation.

Frankly, I'd say that at the present rate there is a 80% chance that a Heaven's Gate-ish tragedy is unavoidable... that being said, that 20% is still certainly worth trying for.

I'm not sure what else can really be done, though, other than to try and continue to make people aware of the JCs, prevent other kids from joining them... but how do you reach those still inside?

In practical terms, one can't, one really can't.

No sense in trying to reason with them, IMO. The confirmation bias is too strong.

It's truly a waste of time IMO to bother with trying to have a rational, objective, mature discussion with any of them.

All they'll do is twist whatever you communicate back onto you and try and make it into some personal attack.

McKay and his cronies simply cannot be reasoned with.

There's no point in even trying, IMO. That approach is pretty useless.

There's nothing that anybody can say, some magic phrase, that will make any of them just snap out of it and decide to exit the group.

Trying to get through to them with logic and reason is like banging your head into a wall over and over again. After a while, it becomes painful.

Their confirmation bias is too strong. The group seems to be made up entirely of "true believers" in DM and his mission.

Therefore, any attempt at dialog is futile IMO. They are in their minds incapable of being wrong or incorrect, about anything, ever.

Therefore, I am glad that the JCs have been driven underground, are somewhat contained, don't seem to be recruiting much, and have had no new recruits lately other than a dog.

Sad? Of course. Regrettable? Certainly. But IMO all too true nonetheless.

Confirmation bias is also known as "Tolstoy Syndrome." The irony!

I love to find ironic quotes.

Here's a couple from their beloved Leo Tolstoy, who they seem to like to hold up as an honorary Jesus Christian, owing to his literalistic interpretation of Jesus' teachings, especially as contained in the Beatitudes:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life".

A related Tolstoy quote is:

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

The cognitive dissonance that these Jesus Christians must constantly experience, the self-deception that they put themselves through day after day!

Tolstoy Syndrome. Incredible.

Here's a good article called "Jonestown and Confirmation Bias"

[www.latimes.com]

Personally, I have about as much contempt for senior JC leadership (the ones other than DM and his consort) Roland, Sue, Rob, Christine, and all the rest, as I do for DM himself.

The JC leadership are pretty much all a bunch of contemptible people in my mind, frankly.

I think of them like I think of the Family's WS unit leadership, the Continental Officers and all those people.

[www.xfamily.org]

They know exactly what they are doing.

They are simply willing accomplices, and are more interested in covering their own backsides and evading exposure, than they are interested in engaging in constructive dialog with their critics.

They at one point might have been victims, but now they are knowingly complicit to DM's evil plans.

Cults are always such a sad situation.

Personally, I tend to focus on "cutting off the blood supply" via education and prevention rather than getting those who are in, out.

The days the kidnapping and "deprogramming" are over (as opposed to exit counseling), and I think that is a good thing.

Obviously I feel that depriving people of their liberties, even temporarily, is wrong, no matter the purpose.

That's why I focus on helping the public to exercise informed consent with respect to learning about these groups.

The sooner they go to Kenya together the better IMO. At least they won't be running around trying to mentally molest anybody else's kids any more.

The way I see it, the Jesus Christians really do not know what they believe, other than that 1) They are personally and spiritually superior to the rest of The Church, as well as to society in general and 2) (related to 1) that everybody is a hypocrite except for them. Jesus Christian belief and world view seem to pretty much boil down to those two points.

The Jesus Christians' members like to freely spread the thought amongst themselves that no one on the earth holds a valid view point on any subject except for members of their group.

Most people would (and do) respond to that arrogant idea by simply saying, “they’re crazy.”

I am of the opinion that Mr. and Mrs. McKay are very disappointed that they didn't become major "players" who got to lead a "movement" of their own.

From Armageddon for Beginners:

Solomon was a good man; but he can't hold a candle to Christ. Nor can anyone who was ever born. As Christ said in prophecies about the last days, people will find many replacements for the true Messiah. (Matthew 24:24) But when they do, their replacement (whoever it may be) becomes an antichrist. (I John 2:18; II John 6-7) The so-called Christian church would rather follow St. Paul, or the Pope, or Billy Graham, or, for that matter, Solomon, than to follow Christ.

See also The Fall of America, Just Do It! and Bin Raiders for writings about Billy Graham.

The Jesus Christians, in like manner, are following David McKay rather than following Christ.

But it's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame, right?

Mr. McKay is implying something in the above texts about how God chose Billy Graham to be an apostle and raise up communities, but Graham chose to defile his conscience in the pursuit of world renown as an evangelist. McKay is basically saying that Billy Graham loves power and fame more than his calling.

In talking in such a disparaging manner about Billy Graham, Mr. McKay gives a really good definition of himself, as it is obvious to me that he loves power and acclaim.

However, the Jesus Christians' "know it all attitude" thankfully only puts people off, and attracts only a mere unfortunate few.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2009 11:53AM by zeuszor.