Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: June 04, 2008 04:26PM
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: June 04, 2008 05:43PM
For new readers to this forum, who may have watched Australian Story, the following might put things in perspective.
David McKay has identified many issuses which are of great importance to young people who are seeking a spiritual community. He has taken on:
Freeganism
Simple living
Kidney donation
Literacy programs in the Third World
Living by Faith
to name some. And most posters on this forum in my opinion subscribe to these movements (which exist anyway without David McKay) as admirable pursuits.
We have a problem with David McKay gathering a cult around him, and whenever we speak our concerns about this, he claims that we are attacking God and all those righteous ideals, which are not his anyway.
He is a PIGGY-BACK cult leader, a failed journalist, who decided to make the news instead of write about it. And so he commandeered writings and ideas from those who had shown success in getting followers: David Berg and his writings for the Children of God are the mainstay of his religious writings, the Freeganism Movement, the Kidney Donation activists - he took them all on as his ideas.
There is not one original idea in what David McKay says, and yet he set himself up as a Cult Leader (yes, an "Evil Cult Leader") and in the small steps of the narcissist, he slowly took and still takes control of those who decide that the way to follow these wonderful ideologies is to give all they have, to shun their parents and sneak into their home while they are away and take everything they think belongs to them , to give it all to David McKay, including their bodies, to serve the ego of one man.
David McKay has identified many issuses which are of great importance to young people who are seeking a spiritual community. He has taken on:
Freeganism
Simple living
Kidney donation
Literacy programs in the Third World
Living by Faith
to name some. And most posters on this forum in my opinion subscribe to these movements (which exist anyway without David McKay) as admirable pursuits.
We have a problem with David McKay gathering a cult around him, and whenever we speak our concerns about this, he claims that we are attacking God and all those righteous ideals, which are not his anyway.
He is a PIGGY-BACK cult leader, a failed journalist, who decided to make the news instead of write about it. And so he commandeered writings and ideas from those who had shown success in getting followers: David Berg and his writings for the Children of God are the mainstay of his religious writings, the Freeganism Movement, the Kidney Donation activists - he took them all on as his ideas.
There is not one original idea in what David McKay says, and yet he set himself up as a Cult Leader (yes, an "Evil Cult Leader") and in the small steps of the narcissist, he slowly took and still takes control of those who decide that the way to follow these wonderful ideologies is to give all they have, to shun their parents and sneak into their home while they are away and take everything they think belongs to them , to give it all to David McKay, including their bodies, to serve the ego of one man.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: June 04, 2008 06:43PM
From [jcs.xjcs.org]
“I suspect some day the Rick Ross forum will be closed down. Their incredibly senseless inciting of hatred towards groups and individuals is sure to lead to negative consequences. I think they are already guilty of cyber bullying and stalking (and of course libel), and seem somewhat proud of it. What gets me is that many of the people who go there have enough intilligence to see that for themselves, but they continue because they receive comfortable strokes from others like themselves who feel bitterness, jealousy and hatred. Surely their time and effort could be put to productive use elsewhere.
In the meanstime, the hurt they cause is real. Sadly they rejoice in that also. What a pity.”
Could it be that when Dave bullies and ban those he can’t beat on his forum critics feel they have no other venue in which to be heard? Dave continues to validate the RR forum as the only venue he wants critics to post on and refuses to acknowledge this forum where he and all JC’s have guaranteed right of reply.
Why not simply ignore the RR site and engage in some reasonable conversation over here.
You have all been invited, but it seems you would rather play the martyr. What a pity."
Dave has instructed his Cult Members not to post on the forum where they are guaranteed no banning. But they don't post. What can you, the reader, infer from that? Hmmmm, let me think, "They must be a Cult......"
“I suspect some day the Rick Ross forum will be closed down. Their incredibly senseless inciting of hatred towards groups and individuals is sure to lead to negative consequences. I think they are already guilty of cyber bullying and stalking (and of course libel), and seem somewhat proud of it. What gets me is that many of the people who go there have enough intilligence to see that for themselves, but they continue because they receive comfortable strokes from others like themselves who feel bitterness, jealousy and hatred. Surely their time and effort could be put to productive use elsewhere.
In the meanstime, the hurt they cause is real. Sadly they rejoice in that also. What a pity.”
Could it be that when Dave bullies and ban those he can’t beat on his forum critics feel they have no other venue in which to be heard? Dave continues to validate the RR forum as the only venue he wants critics to post on and refuses to acknowledge this forum where he and all JC’s have guaranteed right of reply.
Why not simply ignore the RR site and engage in some reasonable conversation over here.
You have all been invited, but it seems you would rather play the martyr. What a pity."
Dave has instructed his Cult Members not to post on the forum where they are guaranteed no banning. But they don't post. What can you, the reader, infer from that? Hmmmm, let me think, "They must be a Cult......"
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
barbiedoll
()
Date: June 04, 2008 10:09PM
Hi all,
I just want to make a public (as it can be!lol) apology. I have said some things on here over the past few months that do not reflect my true Character. I was very hurt and lashed out against the Jesus Christians. I said some things that really i should not have done, and i am sorry for that. The team that i met all those months ago are actually really nice people who i got to know and love and although i am not a JC, i did, and still do have a lot of respect for the team that i met.
My opinion of Dave mckay remains the same and that will never change. He will never aoplogise to me for all the hurt he caused me, but i do hope that one day the UK team might apolgise for thier part in it all.
I really dont like to leave things in the way i have done, i feel just terrible for the hurt i have caused. I believe God does not like us to harbour pain and hurts. I really believe that God wants us to recognise in us when things are bad and sort them out.
Kirstie
I just want to make a public (as it can be!lol) apology. I have said some things on here over the past few months that do not reflect my true Character. I was very hurt and lashed out against the Jesus Christians. I said some things that really i should not have done, and i am sorry for that. The team that i met all those months ago are actually really nice people who i got to know and love and although i am not a JC, i did, and still do have a lot of respect for the team that i met.
My opinion of Dave mckay remains the same and that will never change. He will never aoplogise to me for all the hurt he caused me, but i do hope that one day the UK team might apolgise for thier part in it all.
I really dont like to leave things in the way i have done, i feel just terrible for the hurt i have caused. I believe God does not like us to harbour pain and hurts. I really believe that God wants us to recognise in us when things are bad and sort them out.
Kirstie
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: June 05, 2008 12:09AM
Dear Kristie,
Thank you for your thoughts....(you'll of course pardon my cynicism here, Barbiedoll,however, I can't see that you are under any obligation to apologize particularly "hard" until your erstwhile friends PUBLICLY call David to heel),....but in similar vein, with my heart sorely troubled let me too...make an apology!
You know, I've sometimes caught myself thinking with some disgust, that Ash is rapidly degenerating into an Godlessly selfish pret, now full of little else than the self-righteous vanity that as he is now a royally "annointed" JesusChristian, he is thus entitled, to pharisaically "toy" with his parents concern for him, telling himself that as they are unworthy "systemites", it really doesn't matter how he treats them.....but I ask you, in the light of the current Australian Story presentation, how could I possibly continue to justify being "disgusted"...
May I contritely provide an extract from Blackhats kind reference above [www.abc.net.au],....(my highlights)
ASHWYN FALKINGHAM: We’re not a cult who tells people to donate kidneys. We’re a group and we place our faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ. And he said you know the whole Bible is summed up to love your neighbour and love God. That’s the root of it.
(later..)
KATE CROFT, MOTHER (to Ashwyn): I'm not influencing you or him, boy, I just want to give you a hug, please, and a kiss.
ASHWYN FALKINGHAM (to mother): I don’t know why you came, I don’t know why you came without letting me know, I don’t know why you came without answering my requests not to.
(later..)
ASHWYN FALKINGHAM: In the few days after the operation I didn’t want Kate to come in and visit me. I didn’t want an extra bit of stress. I was just a bit disappointed that Kate had come over there against my wishes. I felt that if she was really there to support me she wouldn’t have flown over. She would have said, look, okay, I support you in what you’re doing and I will support your wish for me not to come over, and you’re my son, I love you.
David of course, encouraged you to disparage your mother in the hope that by so doing, you would thereby deceitfully contrast the "good" JesusChristians against the "bad" parents....but in fact all you've succeeded in doing Ash, where you spoke so disingenuously about the "love" of God and then in the next breath, spitefully throw your Mothers' heartfelt concerns back in her face, is to make David McKay look like nothing other than my poetic "Arsehole from Downunder" appellation
You have COMPLETELY discredited David McKay and the JesusChristians with your hypocritical cant, Ash....(and I thus humbly promise never to be disgusted by your infantile cruelty and your wretched prostitution of so-called "Christian idealism" ever again....why you know....it's just so useful, isn't it!)
I mean, it's beatiful Ash....It's just SO-O-O BEAUTIFUL,
....David has spent years trying to fraudulently pass himself off as genuinely interested in the issues and you...in a few hours, you have thoroughly unmasked his contemptuous hatred for all and sundry by mirroring him, in your treatment of your parents ...I LOVE IT...
...I mean I just LOVE IT......
....and I LOVE YOU, Ash...I REALLY do, you know!!!....
....for being too stupid not be able to see how the changes in you, would be so garishly apparent to anyone outside your sick little circle....
Thank you for your thoughts....(you'll of course pardon my cynicism here, Barbiedoll,however, I can't see that you are under any obligation to apologize particularly "hard" until your erstwhile friends PUBLICLY call David to heel),....but in similar vein, with my heart sorely troubled let me too...make an apology!
You know, I've sometimes caught myself thinking with some disgust, that Ash is rapidly degenerating into an Godlessly selfish pret, now full of little else than the self-righteous vanity that as he is now a royally "annointed" JesusChristian, he is thus entitled, to pharisaically "toy" with his parents concern for him, telling himself that as they are unworthy "systemites", it really doesn't matter how he treats them.....but I ask you, in the light of the current Australian Story presentation, how could I possibly continue to justify being "disgusted"...
May I contritely provide an extract from Blackhats kind reference above [www.abc.net.au],....(my highlights)
ASHWYN FALKINGHAM: We’re not a cult who tells people to donate kidneys. We’re a group and we place our faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ. And he said you know the whole Bible is summed up to love your neighbour and love God. That’s the root of it.
(later..)
KATE CROFT, MOTHER (to Ashwyn): I'm not influencing you or him, boy, I just want to give you a hug, please, and a kiss.
ASHWYN FALKINGHAM (to mother): I don’t know why you came, I don’t know why you came without letting me know, I don’t know why you came without answering my requests not to.
(later..)
ASHWYN FALKINGHAM: In the few days after the operation I didn’t want Kate to come in and visit me. I didn’t want an extra bit of stress. I was just a bit disappointed that Kate had come over there against my wishes. I felt that if she was really there to support me she wouldn’t have flown over. She would have said, look, okay, I support you in what you’re doing and I will support your wish for me not to come over, and you’re my son, I love you.
David of course, encouraged you to disparage your mother in the hope that by so doing, you would thereby deceitfully contrast the "good" JesusChristians against the "bad" parents....but in fact all you've succeeded in doing Ash, where you spoke so disingenuously about the "love" of God and then in the next breath, spitefully throw your Mothers' heartfelt concerns back in her face, is to make David McKay look like nothing other than my poetic "Arsehole from Downunder" appellation
You have COMPLETELY discredited David McKay and the JesusChristians with your hypocritical cant, Ash....(and I thus humbly promise never to be disgusted by your infantile cruelty and your wretched prostitution of so-called "Christian idealism" ever again....why you know....it's just so useful, isn't it!)
I mean, it's beatiful Ash....It's just SO-O-O BEAUTIFUL,
....David has spent years trying to fraudulently pass himself off as genuinely interested in the issues and you...in a few hours, you have thoroughly unmasked his contemptuous hatred for all and sundry by mirroring him, in your treatment of your parents ...I LOVE IT...
...I mean I just LOVE IT......
....and I LOVE YOU, Ash...I REALLY do, you know!!!....
....for being too stupid not be able to see how the changes in you, would be so garishly apparent to anyone outside your sick little circle....
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: June 05, 2008 12:40AM
Dear "Offensive",
In meek restraint, I will merely comment that if you are prepared to be seen to publicly challenge your brother on a few sample issues, such as:
his endorsement of the whipping of the Kenyan volunteer,
ongoing libel of David Lowe,
defrauding of those who fall prey to him (lack of any legal protection, or obligatory practices of good faith, towards those who sign over everything they own in the world to him and who are subsequently dismissed with nothing to their name)
encouragement of the practise of welfare and wider fraud (be that the "dole" or his recent comments on the JC website, about dishonestly buying something that would then be deceitfully returned as "unsatisfactory")
emotional blackmail of the family of members of the JesusChristians, in order to silence them
vexatious accusations of Joe Johnsons parents (in order to duplicitously entrap them into an "admission" of guilt, that he would then gleefully use in a civil suit)
the recruitment of "minors" (see the UK police investigations)
(....if you are not already familiar with these examples...you are a gullible dunce...if you deliberately CHOOSE not to be familiar with them, you are a hypocrite and should be stripped of your current office within the Salvation Army)
....you many then find that your complaints about your "gravely injured" feelings concerning the prolonged "sufferings" of your mother are regarded somewhat more seriously.....
...however, if instead, you'd like now to simply write some trite reply to me, that fails to seriously canvass these issues, I will locate the articles you nominate, concerning your mother, and immediately RE-POST them....
In meek restraint, I will merely comment that if you are prepared to be seen to publicly challenge your brother on a few sample issues, such as:
his endorsement of the whipping of the Kenyan volunteer,
ongoing libel of David Lowe,
defrauding of those who fall prey to him (lack of any legal protection, or obligatory practices of good faith, towards those who sign over everything they own in the world to him and who are subsequently dismissed with nothing to their name)
encouragement of the practise of welfare and wider fraud (be that the "dole" or his recent comments on the JC website, about dishonestly buying something that would then be deceitfully returned as "unsatisfactory")
emotional blackmail of the family of members of the JesusChristians, in order to silence them
vexatious accusations of Joe Johnsons parents (in order to duplicitously entrap them into an "admission" of guilt, that he would then gleefully use in a civil suit)
the recruitment of "minors" (see the UK police investigations)
(....if you are not already familiar with these examples...you are a gullible dunce...if you deliberately CHOOSE not to be familiar with them, you are a hypocrite and should be stripped of your current office within the Salvation Army)
....you many then find that your complaints about your "gravely injured" feelings concerning the prolonged "sufferings" of your mother are regarded somewhat more seriously.....
...however, if instead, you'd like now to simply write some trite reply to me, that fails to seriously canvass these issues, I will locate the articles you nominate, concerning your mother, and immediately RE-POST them....
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Offended
()
Date: June 05, 2008 01:14AM
Malcolm,
By meek restraint, is that in referrance to my request that Brian stop harrassing my 87yo mother, or is that your restraint from hating me simply because I am related to David?
I am familiar with the examples you list, but I feel you will still consider me a gullible dunce (again, guilt by blood relation)
I have no office within The Salvation Army, nor have I ever, and even if I did, I'm not sure why I should feel any more obligated to put in time or effort on this forum than any other Christian venture in this world. In many of your own words, you have acknowledged that David is small time compared to other cult leaders, yet you feel I am a hypocrite because I do not dedicate time to this forum instead of any other worthwhile venture. Is that because you erroneously believe I hold an office in The Salvation Army, or because you feel I should feel guilt for being related to David?
Paul felt no guilt for being a Roman, I feel no guilt for being David's brother. Your attempt to shame me based upon who I am related to is not worthy of a response.
I have done NOTHING here either in support or defense of my brother, I have only asked that Brian stop stalking and harassing my mother (AS MANY OTHERS HAVE ON THIS FORUM). It seems my pleas for compassion for her also fall on deaf ears, because alas, she also is related to David, and therefore should suffer humiliation from this forum IYO.
Back when Brian first started his attack on my mother, I saw many of the posters here make comments that it was not the "Christian" way to take up arms against David. But now I see no disparaging comments whatsoever, so I can only assume those posting here have changed their opinion as to what is and what is not acceptable in your campaign.
By meek restraint, is that in referrance to my request that Brian stop harrassing my 87yo mother, or is that your restraint from hating me simply because I am related to David?
I am familiar with the examples you list, but I feel you will still consider me a gullible dunce (again, guilt by blood relation)
I have no office within The Salvation Army, nor have I ever, and even if I did, I'm not sure why I should feel any more obligated to put in time or effort on this forum than any other Christian venture in this world. In many of your own words, you have acknowledged that David is small time compared to other cult leaders, yet you feel I am a hypocrite because I do not dedicate time to this forum instead of any other worthwhile venture. Is that because you erroneously believe I hold an office in The Salvation Army, or because you feel I should feel guilt for being related to David?
Paul felt no guilt for being a Roman, I feel no guilt for being David's brother. Your attempt to shame me based upon who I am related to is not worthy of a response.
I have done NOTHING here either in support or defense of my brother, I have only asked that Brian stop stalking and harassing my mother (AS MANY OTHERS HAVE ON THIS FORUM). It seems my pleas for compassion for her also fall on deaf ears, because alas, she also is related to David, and therefore should suffer humiliation from this forum IYO.
Back when Brian first started his attack on my mother, I saw many of the posters here make comments that it was not the "Christian" way to take up arms against David. But now I see no disparaging comments whatsoever, so I can only assume those posting here have changed their opinion as to what is and what is not acceptable in your campaign.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Offended
()
Date: June 05, 2008 01:16AM
Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear "Offensive",
Pretty much says it all. You find my request for Brian to leave my mother alone, "Offensive".
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: June 05, 2008 03:27AM
Quote
Offended
Malcolm,
By meek restraint, is that in referrance to my request that Brian stop harrassing my 87yo mother, or is that your restraint from hating me simply because I am related to David?
I am familiar with the examples you list, but I feel you will still consider me a gullible dunce (again, guilt by blood relation)
I have no office within The Salvation Army, nor have I ever, and even if I did, I'm not sure why I should feel any more obligated to put in time or effort on this forum than any other Christian venture in this world. In many of your own words, you have acknowledged that David is small time compared to other cult leaders, yet you feel I am a hypocrite because I do not dedicate time to this forum instead of any other worthwhile venture. Is that because you erroneously believe I hold an office in The Salvation Army, or because you feel I should feel guilt for being related to David?
Paul felt no guilt for being a Roman, I feel no guilt for being David's brother. Your attempt to shame me based upon who I am related to is not worthy of a response.
I have done NOTHING here either in support or defense of my brother, I have only asked that Brian stop stalking and harassing my mother (AS MANY OTHERS HAVE ON THIS FORUM). It seems my pleas for compassion for her also fall on deaf ears, because alas, she also is related to David, and therefore should suffer humiliation from this forum IYO.
Back when Brian first started his attack on my mother, I saw many of the posters here make comments that it was not the "Christian" way to take up arms against David. But now I see no disparaging comments whatsoever, so I can only assume those posting here have changed their opinion as to what is and what is not acceptable in your campaign.
Offended
I do not feel that your mother or any other member of your family should feel or be made to feel guilty because you are related to Dave.
I was not aware that your mother was being stalked. Can you please provide more information about this.
I would be highly critical of anyone who supported Dave in his activitites to the detriment of others.
If I may add, I think you may have misunderstand the comments made to the effect ' that David is small time compared to other cult leaders' He may be small time in that he repulses more than he recruits and as a result the group is small in terms of actual numbers. Make no mistake however, he has done tremendous damage to individuals and to families and he continues to do so. I do feel that your mother showed true courage in her letter when she called him to account over his activities.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2008 03:31AM by muppet.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: June 05, 2008 03:30AM
Quote
Offended
Malcolm,
By meek restraint, is that in referrance to my request that Brian stop harrassing my 87yo mother, or is that your restraint from hating me simply because I am related to David?
I am familiar with the examples you list, but I feel you will still consider me a gullible dunce (again, guilt by blood relation)
I have no office within The Salvation Army, nor have I ever, and even if I did, I'm not sure why I should feel any more obligated to put in time or effort on this forum than any other Christian venture in this world. In many of your own words, you have acknowledged that David is small time compared to other cult leaders, yet you feel I am a hypocrite because I do not dedicate time to this forum instead of any other worthwhile venture. Is that because you erroneously believe I hold an office in The Salvation Army, or because you feel I should feel guilt for being related to David?
Paul felt no guilt for being a Roman, I feel no guilt for being David's brother. Your attempt to shame me based upon who I am related to is not worthy of a response.
I have done NOTHING here either in support or defense of my brother, I have only asked that Brian stop stalking and harassing my mother (AS MANY OTHERS HAVE ON THIS FORUM). It seems my pleas for compassion for her also fall on deaf ears, because alas, she also is related to David, and therefore should suffer humiliation from this forum IYO.
Back when Brian first started his attack on my mother, I saw many of the posters here make comments that it was not the "Christian" way to take up arms against David. But now I see no disparaging comments whatsoever, so I can only assume those posting here have changed their opinion as to what is and what is not acceptable in your campaign.
I am not stalking not harassing anybody. We called her (DM's dear old mama) that one time, six months back. Later I obtained a copy of a letter that was purportedly written from her to DM over twenty years ago. This letter corroborated everything we were told in our phone interviews.
Look, when I did call her I was 100% up front about who I was and why I was calling. I was not the only person to speak with her that day; another person involved here called A even before I did and we were both given roughly the same account. I did not call pretending to be David's friend, and I did not deceive anybody. Nor did my partner that afternoon. I merely told her that I was interested in learning about her son's background, that I was a researcher. All true.
A was very frank and forthcoming in sharing her memories of DM and expressed shame over his behavior. It seemed that she was just waiting for somebody to call her up and start asking about David; he's been up to no good for years and his mother knows this better than anybody.
I am not lying about a single thing here. Nor am I sorry that I called her. This does not constitute and attack nor any type of harassment.
It was done in the name of research, not malice.
DM is a very bad guy and needs to be stopped from hurting more children and families, by whatever legal and ethical means at our disposal. To me, the matter is that simple.
I have taken this campaign upon myself as a matter of conscience. Somebody had to do it, and it just happened to be us.
Further, I can understand how you'd feel some consternation, sir. If somebody called my Mama checking up on me I'd be concerned too, to say the least. Have you given much thought, however, to all of the people that have been hurt due to your brother's malignant influence? What about the way that your brother treats other people and their mothers?
"Two wrongs don't make a right."
That's true.
"Fight fire with fire."
That's also true.
I do not apologize for what I did. I am not sorry that I called her, and I do not regret having called her. I do, however, regret reporting on it so impetuously. The encounter would have made its way onto the JC forum first anyway, and with DM's spin on it, as soon as DM heard about it from his mom. At least I got to present the "no spin" version.
Come on, it's amazing to me that nobody's done that yet, try and interview DM's family members after all these years. Give me a break.
Whatever distress anybody in the McKay family might have experienced over this episode pales in comparison to the ongoing distress inflicted by DM upon the families of his group members.
I have always aimed to portray myself with absolute transparency here.
I did what I did with the blessing and under the counsel of other concerned mothers, and was not acting as a "Lone Ranger" on that operation.
Sic semper tyrannus, McKay. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Turnabout is fair play, huh?
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2008 03:44AM by zeuszor.
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