David ought to write a new book entitled,
[b:e5b1544524]
"The Jesus Christians--Spitting In the Face of the World For Over Twenty Years."[/b:e5b1544524]

Think it'd sell?

don't hassle Grace too much because of one word.

Teenage rebellion is often an important part of growing up. My impression is that Grace is still quite young. Cynicism about the "establishment" is an important part of learning to think independantly and in creating reform to change unjust things.

Jack Chick has promoted a bizarre theology full of fear and hatred. It is right for people to rebel against it and poke fun at the obvious holes in the theology, even if they are crude and vulgar. Indeed, the JC's would agree with many of the holes in Chick's theology such as cheap grace.

It's part of the richness of free speech. It makes us think, even if we disagree.

The problem is when Dave harnesses valid rebellion against illegitimate authority for his own ends.

The solution and the liberation is when the young people grow up and realise that Dave's authority is more illegitimate and more enslaving than the system's.

This realisation occurs to most JC's, eventually. After all, there are many more ex members than present members. Let us encourage them to come to this realisation!

Thankyou cultmalleus for your words of wisdom. You highlight the whole purpose of this forum - to allow the young people with valid questions about society and a burning desire to live out their faith to find out information about some of the traps out there in Questland. And from what I gather on the internet, David McKay is one of those traps.

Regular posters to this forum ensure that it comes up on most search engines as active and alive. Sometimes the forum goes off on obsessive tangents on both sides, but that very activity keeps an active listing for anyone wanting to find out if they should be wary of the Jesus Christians.

So keep it up guys, you are doing really well.

Grace, I hope these words help you work see some of the warnings people who have joined the Jesus Christians want you to consider in your quest.

Dear Zeusor,

As I am forever mistyping postings, I'd also not feel that concerned about Grace "spitting" in the face of the world...(something one actually often feels like doing in Korea!!!)

What stikes me as incongruous about Graces comment is more the remark that:

"If you can't laugh at yourself every once in a while, that's too bad."

I have no doubt you have a lot of good intentions Grace (most of the people who join the JC's do so because of the "good intentions" that they value), but can you think of an occasion when David McKay "laughed" at himself.

That he was able to "let go" and NOT take offence at the smallest remark made in the contrary to him (....or to his opinion on the tiniest theological matter!)

You of course are quite right that it is pyschologically healthy to be able to "relax" and look at ourselves with a little humour...when is the last time tha you can recall David doing so?

Of course he loves to laugh at others.....he relishes "tweaking" the guilt and anxieties in others...but being able to laugh at himself?

Hmm...well you can remind me there, can't you Grace!

....and naturally, I hope that you don't let David persuade you that any insights you have, are evidence of you "being out of the spirit" if they somehow lead you to question him....

(...and I don't mean that in response to this email he purposely moderates his beahviour, ever so briefly, to "persuade" you of his humanity....I of course, mean in the years you have known him to date...just let Zeusor know on the JC site won't you......)

That'd be a cool name for a band, huh? Balaam's Ass.

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I'm sure they are not telling you to recant any negative stuff that was true, just the lies.

Do not edit my posts, David. Quit trying to control me. If you do not like my asking a question over and over and over until I get a straight answer, ban me. Simply give me a straight answer the first time please and we'll all be saved a lot of hassle, OK?

Quit trying to micromanage me.

So I repeat: what are the lies of which you speak, Glenn, and for which you expect me to repent? Tell me what lies I have told. I have never spoken a lie in relation to this, simply my opinions and my feelings about them.

Look, I am not sorry because I said that I believe DM to be totally narcissistic and a sick man, nor am I sorry that I said that I think of him as a type of pervert, nor am I sorry that I said that I believe that the JCs have been duped by a false prophet. Yes, I said it. A FALSE PROPHET.

These comments honestly express the way I feel, and further, I feel compelled to educate and warn the general public about these people by any legal and ethical means necessary.

If (and when) I have overstated my point or spoken in overly militant terms, this I have recanted. I do not wish harm to anyone. I wish for DM and the rest to be so overwhelmed by all the negative attention that they have received, and continue to receive, that their recruiting efforts are neutralized. I wish to see the JCs be disbanded somehow, by whatever ethical and legal means possible. I do not wish for DM to die or get hurt or something, nothing of the sort, but I do want to see him stopped somehow, yes.

I will not let him tear another family apart if I can help it. The man is sick. He has a personality disorder. He is a narcissist. He uses, abuses, and hurts people. I was blessed enough to have seen some big red flags right off, very abusive dynamics within their group. Most JCs seem to tend to see this also after a while. I pray that one day you do too, Grace. I pray that all of you do.

But can we still be friends (or have friendly relations, rather) even though I hold these opinions? And again, where did I lie?

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To direct or control in a detailed, often meddlesome manner.

[www.thefreedictionary.com]

THAT'S OL' DAVID FOR YA!

Quit doing that David, please. Quit editing my posts and telling me what I can and can't say. It is really annoying. You are not God, David.

What are these lies, Glenn?

Shhshh, David, I am not talking to you! Go take a "time out" or something.

I'll tell you about the abuse dynamic that I witnessed during my trial week in Dallas...

Besides the fact that everybody smelled like garbage (red flag 1), they all appeared emaciated (red flag 2), and there were, I'd say, 12-15 of them (four kids) in that two-room apartment (with some sleeping in the camper), here's another thing I noticed: the CONTROL they were all under.

The group was eating lunch together, and I declined to eat, as I had decided to fast that day. Fran was clearly the man in charge, as he sat at the front of the room and was asking me questions, etc. It seemed like he was the only one allowed to speak, he and Sue, who was also there at the time. nobody else asked me anything. I remember thinking that Annette seemed somehow uncomfortable, like she was embarrassed about something, but I didn't know how to interpret her body language. She just seemed...uncomfortable. At one point Ufuoma said to me, "Why don't you get some food? You don't know what you're missing." as she smiled, rubbed her stomach and relished another bite. Fran said to her sharply, "Don't say that!" and shot her this cold look. Ufuoma looked down at the floor. That disturbed me. Why should he care what she said to who, and then tell her not to speak, I thought?

During the "Bible study" (which was really just Fran reading the article he just wrote, which I recall was titled "No More Mr. nice Guy." I remember it seemed very structured and that nobody was talking except Fran. There was no discussion, only Fran giving what seemed to me to be a rather angry homily about rebellion against the established norms.

I just started noticing lots of little things that added up, the secrecy (I asked Fran if there was a leader for the group, or who runs it, and he told me that David was the longest-standing member and a highly respected member of the community, but the JCs have no real "leaders" and that everything is decided by popular vote) the way that Fran seemed really suspicious of me (this was around the time that the Ronson article was published)
the way Fran seemed to control who could speak and who could not, and the fact that they were all obviously malnourished and stank, yeah, I thought the whole picture was super-spooky and abruptly left. Best decision I ever mae in my life.

And I have never forgotten them and have followed DM's antics ever since. I have studies this real closely. He is getting worse.
I believe that he is dangerous.

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Brian, continue to speak out and post. You are an inspiration to at least fifty people who read these postings on a daily basis. Please don't let Dave McKay or anyone else sideline you from posting the truth.

It's comments like that that keep me motivated. Thanks Wayne!

How have you been?

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However, I'm not interested in your insults about myself or Dave. How would you feel if I told you that you had been "deceived and pimped-out" by whatever branch of the armed forces you were (are?) a part of or by Rick Ross and his crew?

1. As far as the Army goes, I agree. Pimped out is right. Blood for oil, baby!

2. I have never met and do not know RR. There is no "crew."

Thanks for the firsthand account of 'staying' with the JCs, Zeuszor.

From my limited experience a typical JC is somewhat reserved and/or wary. It's either because a group like the JCs attracts that sort of person (submissive) or because they've been 'trained' to watch each other for slip ups (these are then reported back to Father Dave, no doubt).

I suspect there are power games being played to win the favour of their Father. It would seem that some play it with more zeal and enthusiasm than others, but it's the kind of game than ropes everyone in just so the 'little person' can maintain a peaceful existence.

I might be wrong.

Jeremy, Grace, you guys have my email address. Write me sometime (if you can get David's permission, of course) and I'd like to try and meet you in person again, spend some time together, maybe have a meal. I have been trying to meet you in person all along after all. Why not give it a chance?