Hi, I've been reading this thread for a while and I also read the Jesus Christians forum. I am not one of, am not sent by, and am not a spy for Dave McKay or any of the Jesus Christians, but I am on friendly terms with them. I have not posted here before on this or any other account. I am not a troll, goblin, or fraggle. I am just someone with a boring job and an internet connection. (I thought by starting off with that we could skip ahead a few posts in the standard introduction sequence)

I was hoping some of the ex-Jesus Christians that post here could help enlighten me on a few things I've been wondering about. Why do you guys think that you had such a hard time while in the Jesus Christians but others that are still in the group seem to be doing well and are quite happy? In your opinion what's the difference between you and them?

Also despite your obvious dislike for Dave McKay, are there any of the beliefs that are more peculiar to the group (forsaking all your posetions, not using formal titles etc.) you still hold to today? and are all of you still Christians or have some of you lost faith in God?

It is such good news that David McKay's parasitical behavior regarding refugees who make it to Australia is "hampered". He is so upset that the refugee support groups within Australia can see through his duplicious actions, and yet he still sees fit to blame that on the actions of another instead of accepting that he was shut down as a result of his own actions. Like the big old pig in George Orwell's "Animal farm", he blames all his woes on those he has expelled and slandered.

And now for a David McKay classic case of projection:

[i:2e74b99eb9]"but it was on the backs of a lot of other lackeys that you achieved your glory"[/i:2e74b99eb9]

A question: Who wears the T shirts advertising the Jesus Christian website after giving up their backs to surgeons for a kidney to be removed, and who gets the glory for that?



It seems to be an amazing fact that David McKay is guilty of everything he accuses others of.

I have to agree with Xnophone that his apology is not worth the paper it is written on. Being designed to generate sympathy for him and how patient he has to be with others he considers beneath him.

Some more complaints to add to the growing list:
[b:2e74b99eb9]
38. David McKay projects his own guilt onto other and then attacks them for it.

39. David McKay demands sincere unjustified apologies from others while hypocriticaly using his "apostolic" position within the cult to justify his own insincere apologies.[/b:2e74b99eb9]

Have found

a few links about the this refugee issue but they are unclear and have very little info
one dating back to 2001 about someone called Dave in jail in Angleton, Texas.??? Are these about[/list][/list]

Unfinished post there!

Does anyone have any info about :

Refugee issue and article mentioned by DM


Assualt on British policeman mentioned by DM


trespass and an Angleton Jail? (Not sure if this is connected?)

First
[adelaide.indymedia.org]

Second
In it he refers to an article from the Australian

Here it is

Legal bid to close book on reluctant detainees' stories.
By Rebecca DiGirolamo, Jane Fraser.
29 July 2002
The Australian

English
[global.factiva.com.ezproxy.flinders.edu.au] (6 of 8)28/05/2006 6:15:42 AM
(c) 2002 Nationwide News Proprietary Ltd
LEGAL moves are under way to censor a book detailing the experiences of detainees at the Woomera detention centre after two asylum-seekers claimed
their stories were published against their wishes.
Lawyers representing the detainees were attempting yesterday to remove their accounts in The Worst of Woomera, by David and Cherry McKay.
The 44-page book, which does not use the real names of detainees, was posted yesterday on a religious website (www.jesuschristians.com), while copies
were given to refugee advocacy groups.
Solicitor Abby Hamdan said she would contact the publishers today to halt further publication after being made aware of two male detainees who made
"explicit requests" not to have their stories revealed publicly, fearing the information could harm their families in their homeland.
"They were stunned to learn their stories had been been published," she said.
Ms Hamdan said the book failed to adequately disguise the identity of the detainees, one of whom was due to return home. She appealed to David McKay to
remove the men's stories and said she would contact other detainees featured in the book to verify their consent.
McKay refused to comment. He has been living in Pimba, just outside Woomera, after forming the Refugee Embassy group with Ross Parry in April.
Mr Parry said: "We had consent. The book was to inform the public that these are real refugees with real stories of persecution."
One of the detainees wrote to Mr Parry last week asking for his story to be removed: "I didn't let you use my story. But unfortunately you used it," the letter
says.
Adelaide refugee activist Craig Hendry, who visited detainees in Woomera last week, said some were adamant their words were spoken in confidence.
"The refugees have real concerns about their own safety and the safety of their families," he said.
Meanwhile, claims by the federal Government that Ali Bakhtiyari, the father of two boys who unsuccessfully sought asylum at the British consulate in
Melbourne, was not an Afghan but a plumber from Pakistan were denied yesterday.
"It is all lies," said Cyrus Sarang, Mr Bakhtiyari's interpreter. "Bakhtiyari is a common name, like Jones or Smith. Instead of going to Pakistan and finding a
plumber called Bakhtiyari, why didn't they go to the village in Afghanistan where he comes from and where many people - neighbours and friends - would
easily confirm his story?"

Dear Josh,

Welcome to the site! In response to your enquiry as to why say Ross, Roland or Robin, remain in the JesusChristians while I ultimately left the organization, (and of course you should ask them their opinions, as well directly) I'd say the key difference is that they are prepared to accept directives from David McKay (in policy and direct instruction) which they consider to be bliblically compatible...and which I would not.

In relation to a number of scriptural issues (you mention the priniciple of "forsaking all") I would be in agreement with them and I believe that many of the projects in which they are engaged (Teaching in Kenya) are valuable contributions... yet we remain somewhat "less than friends

If you scroll back through the posts (I'm sorry that there is such a lot of them)you may see a number of issues raised in relation to these. But for the sake of this discussion....I imagine that the Kingdom of Heaven will be as close as possible to a "pluralistic, inclusive democracy" whereas my impression of what occurs in the JesusChristians is that they covertly practice and teach an exclusive theocracy divided into "leaders" and "followers" where there is little respect for many of the rights (Speech, Association and Movement or the universal application of natural Laws) that we commonly associate with Christian organizations (be that rightly or wrongly associated!!) and which has led to a number of "procedural abuses" within the JesusChristians. (Such as some members of this site being "illegallly (by their own standards) being dismissed from the group)

If the JesusChristians did not call themselves "Christians" or no longer actively sought membership I would probably not trouble to post as they are certainly entitled to do to themsleves whatever they see fit.

I encourage you to look through their teachings (although I personally cannot recommend their site in general) and see for yourself.

But perhaps to give you an insight into my reaction to their common criticism, that they are being unfairly castigated by jealous people who have simply failed in their own faith.


If you were able to go to a Nazi concentration camp, you'd probably find that the commandant and most of the guards were reasonably well-fed and content, whereas the inmates frequntly expressed a great deal of discontent. How would you explain away such disparity? Why don't the inmates just do something "constructive" with their lives instead of forever trying to "run down" a small community of close-knit guards and thier families who are just trying to "live out their ideals"....here you have my perspective on the reason for our differences!!

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Josh
Hi, I've been reading this thread for a while and I also read the Jesus Christians forum. I am not one of, am not sent by, and am not a spy for Dave McKay or any of the Jesus Christians, but I am on friendly terms with them. I have not posted here before on this or any other account. I am not a troll, goblin, or fraggle. I am just someone with a boring job and an internet connection. (I thought by starting off with that we could skip ahead a few posts in the standard introduction sequence)

I was hoping some of the ex-Jesus Christians that post here could help enlighten me on a few things I've been wondering about. Why do you guys think that you had such a hard time while in the Jesus Christians but others that are still in the group seem to be doing well and are quite happy? In your opinion what's the difference between you and them?

Also despite your obvious dislike for Dave McKay, are there any of the beliefs that are more peculiar to the group (forsaking all your posetions, not using formal titles etc.) you still hold to today? and are all of you still Christians or have some of you lost faith in God?

Hello Josh, I will accept that you are not "a troll, goblin, or fraggle, one of, sent by, or a spy by Dave McKay or any of the Jesus Christians" if you accept that I am not attacking, slandering, pouring forth vile untrue accusations, lying, or stupid. That being agreed upon I reckon we can proceed.

A hard question to answer on behalf of others, but on behalf of myself it is a lot easier. I think the difference between me, an ex member, initially and other current members who continue to remain is CHOICE.

I chose, and continue to choose, to uphold a principle of equality amongst those that claim a measure of spirituality while remaining members do not.

I choose to uphold the concept of an invisible Kingdom of Heaven while remaining members do not. Remaining members promote religious hiearchies with leaders and followers, belief in a visible body of Christ of which they claim "here it is"... and then from that boast commence their judgement in anticipation of the day they "rule the world". The time they whipped an African volunteer in their Kenyan compound is an example of this.

I choose to reject David McKay's claim of "divine authority" under which protection from the forces of darkness is granted. Remaining members accept his boast. I see it as contrary to the groups earlier "Kingdom of Heaven Vs Religion" ideology which promoted a concept of each individual having direct access to God.

That is a few for starters. I have others, but I do not know how much to put into this as I do not know what sort of of response you are likely to have.

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matilda
Unfinished post there!

Does anyone have any info about :

Refugee issue and article mentioned by DM


Assualt on British policeman mentioned by DM


trespass and an Angleton Jail? (Not sure if this is connected?)

The first two don't ring a bell, but I was there while Dave was in Angleton. We were giving out free copies of Armageddon for Beginners out to people who were coming out of the theatre who just saw Left Behind. This was to give them a different view of prophecy.

After getting out a few we were told to leave. Later on that night Dave came back to the theatre and told the manager (or someone who said they were the manager) that he intended to continue distributing the books. He was warned that if he did they would call the police, and that is what they did. He was in Angleton jail for forty days or so. Shortly after his release he appeared on a local (Houston) news tv show which consisted of him and a couple of other news-guys protesting his arrest.

That was a great summation Boyd, whoops, I meant Tony, whoops, I meant Attila, whoops, I meant Craig, whoops, I meant Apostate secretly masquerading as Kevin or maybe he's really Dave using another IP???

I would be happier myself if every member of the JC's, Dave included, (as long as his posts were limited to 250-500 words a day!) could continue to post here. It's good to have you here Fran. An opportunity to have a free discussion without groupthink/Davethink is mentally healthy. I hope you stay on. Rick Ross, I hope you give Fran and others a bit of room. I could have been writing exactly the same things as Fran does several years ago.

I know many ex JC's have been angry about being conned and they've ventilated here, often for the first time; it's understandable. Fran, try and look past that to the positive things that have been said.

Fran wrote:

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Of course, if you ever come up with an actual postive alternative to the JC way of life, we would be keen to see it.

Yes, there is a positive alternative. Work in the invisible Kingdom of Heaven using your special and unique talents properly to love, care for and help others. Don't waste your life selling books on the street just because Dave could never make it without you as a published author. Find the path that God has for you. Look for good and God in other people, instead of trying to find the bad, you'll be amazed how much is really out there amongst "systemites".

Unfortunately, if you are looking for a actual visible organisation it doesn't exist. In fact, the more you try and create the K of H as a visible organisation the more you make an oppressive cult of control. It is like trying to chase a wisp of smoke, or trying to get happy.

It just comes when you love others in freedom.

I think there are times Dave tries to be good, but he has a terrible insecurity and members of the JC's are in a co-dependancy with him. Better for him and for you to part ways. He has certain rigid ideas which will stunt your growth in God. Perhaps it was helpful to be in the JC's for a time, perhaps it is now time to try life without them.

Don't end up sad and frustrated as many are. You know I'm speaking the truth. After a certain age you may no longer be able to escape and start a new, fulfilling life. Sure, it was an adventure for a while. But you can see your fate in front of you in the older members.

At least give other options a try. If everything is really free and democratic as you say, there's nothing stopping you leaving for a while to do some other worthwhile work that might be more suitable for you, and perhaps more in line with God's will which is to love and be kind. You could always go back later if it didn't work out.

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cultmalleus
It's good to have you here Fran. An opportunity to have a free discussion without groupthink/Davethink is mentally healthy.

Thank you. I also agree that discussions without groupthink are mentally healthy. I guess you believe that us JCs don't have many opportunities to have free discussions. This is despite the fact that most of us are split up into autonomous teams. Of course, there is unity amongst us, and that seems to dissapoint you. However, there is unity amongst you guys here on this forum too, and people could argue that there is a lot of group think that goes on this thread. I guess the difference for me is that I am united with the JCs in wanting to obey Jesus, whereas it seems you guys are only united in wanting to tear us down.

Quote

I know many ex JC's have been angry about being conned and they've ventilated here, often for the first time; it's understandable. Fran, try and look past that to the positive things that have been said.

I have tried to look past all the grumbling people do on this thread to find the positive things that have been said. Sadly, there hasn't been much positive stuff said. If you look back through the 50 or so pages of this thread, I think you would have to agree with me on that.

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Cultmalleus
Yes, there is a positive alternative. Work in the invisible Kingdom of Heaven using your special and unique talents properly to love, care for and help others.

Thank you. That is one of the most positive things I have heard on this forum. And I totally agree with you. It is what I have been trying to do for the last nine years. I pray that I will continue to do that for the rest of my life.

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cultmaleus
Don't waste your life selling books on the street just because Dave could never make it without you as a published author.

Cultmalleus, I don't know who you are or what your own spiritual journey has been like. I don't know if you even know me, though it sounds like you do not. Let me share a little about my own walk with God...

I heard from God before I ever met the JCs and I wanted to follow Jesus before I met them. I still hear from God, without having to ask permission from anybody to do so. What God tells me, I take seriously and I try to put it into practise.

When I received "The Liberator" nine years ago on the streets of Sydney, it did not dampen my faith in God. On the contrary, it fanned the fire that had already ignited within me and it truly spoke to my condition. The teachings of Jesus were portrayed in a very relevant and exciting way. I still like that comic.

I don't distribute any literature that I don't think will inspire people in some way to follow God. On our forum, you will find a section called "Survivors". I suggest you read the many letters we receive each week telling us how much that book has helped them in their walk with God. It's not like these people are talking about joining us. They are just talking about how it has helped their relationship with God. And that is what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about, wouldn't you agree?

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cultmalleus
Find the path that God has for you.

I have. And I continue to ask God what His path for my life is.

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cultmalleus
Look for good and God in other people, instead of trying to find the bad, you'll be amazed how much is really out there amongst "systemites".

One of the most fundamental Quaker teachings is that there is that 'there is that of God in everyone'. Understanding this has indeed helped me see how much is really out there in the world. Even systemites (ie. people who worship a system in preference to worshipping God) have some good qualities. However, unless they repent and turn to God, they will never experience the peace that comes with having a sincere relationship with God. This goes for people in and out of the Jesus Christians, regardless of what system they worship.

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Cultmalleus
Unfortunately, if you are looking for a actual visible organisation it doesn't exist.

You are right, it doesn't. That is why it is pointless putting your faith in any organization. Having said that, I don't believe organizations in themselves are bad. Most of us in the world are part of organizations. We choose to work at certain places in certain professions, etc. The important thing is to ask God who (if anyone) He wants you to be working with, and then do you best to follow your understanding of His will.

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cultmalleus
In fact, the more you try and create the K of H as a visible organisation the more you make an oppressive cult of control. It is like trying to chase a wisp of smoke, or trying to get happy.

That is true only to the extent that you forget about building the Kingdom of Heaven. If you continue to sincerely build the Kingdom of Heaven, you cannot be controlled by opressive cults nor opressive cult-busters.

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cultmalleus
It just comes when you love others in freedom.

Amen to that! Love is what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about. True freedom is actually yeilding your entire will to the will of God. The more your surrender your own will to God, the more free you become! It's truly inspiring!

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cultmalleus
I think there are times Dave tries to be good, but he has a terrible insecurity and members of the JC's are in a co-dependancy with him.

I think here is where we disagree. However, I can appreciate that you personally felt dependant on the group. I hope that you have not transferred that dependency onto another group. The important thing is to learn to be dependent on God.

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cultmalleus
Better for him and for you to part ways.

I think that is a decision that is for him and me to make, and not for you to call.

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cultmalleus
He has certain rigid ideas which will stunt your growth in God.

I have learned a lot from Dave as well as from other JCs and non-JCs. If you find that something is not helping you to grow in God, then you don't take that on. Try all things, and hold to that which is good, says the scripture.

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cultmalleus
Perhaps it was helpful to be in the JC's for a time, perhaps it is now time to try life without them.

Or perhaps I still need to learn more from my fellowship with the JCs. Either way, that is something for me to decide (according to what I believe God wants me to do).

I could easily say, perhaps it was helpful for you to leave the JCs for a time, and perhaps now it is time for you to come back and live and work with them again.

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cultmalleus
Don't end up sad and frustrated as many are. You know I'm speaking the truth.

Yes, it is true. Many people are sad and frustrated. Others are angry and bitter. Others are confused. I don't intend to end up like that. I don't think that is what God wants, and as I long as I stay faithful to His leadings, I am sure that I won't end up that way. Bitterness is not a fruit of the Spirit. It doesn't come from following God. It comes from NOT following Him.

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cultmalleus
After a certain age you may no longer be able to escape and start a new, fulfilling life.

Escape what? I am already living a new and fulfilling life. It is never too old to repent and turn to God. Don't give up, cultmalleus, no matter how old you are!

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cultmalleus
Sure, it was an adventure for a while.

Following God is always and adventure. It is not something you just get a thrill out of for a short time. It is a lifetime of adventure!

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cultmalleus
But you can see your fate in front of you in the older members.

When I see the evidence of the fruits of the Spirit in someone's life, I am encouraged and strive to share those same fruits in my own walk with God. But when I see negative fruits like bitterness, lies and envy, in other people, I take note of it and strive to understand what caused such negative fruit so that I will not share the same fate.

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cultmalleus
At least give other options a try.

There is no other option worth trying other than following God. I have spent most of my life trying out the option of disobeying God, and it was not for me. I've been there and done that. I firmly believe that following God is the only option worth choosing. If you believe otherwise, then that's your choice.

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cultmalleus
If everything is really free and democratic as you say, there's nothing stopping you leaving for a while to do some other worthwhile work that might be more suitable for you, and perhaps more in line with God's will which is to love and be kind. You could always go back later if it didn't work out.

I guess you haven't heard what I have said previously. Most JCs are in independent autonomous teams where they can choose to do whatever they like. Sure, other teams may not like what they choose and may comment, but they are free to do whatever they like just the same. Xenophone (James) and his wife were on such a team. They were given a vehicle, funds and literature to head off and do what they wanted. They eventually decided to do something different to what most JCs are doing, and that is their choice.

Having said that, you must realise that you are not the first to use the "if you are really free why don't you leave?" line.

I could just as easily ask you... "if you are really free like you say you are, why don't you come back to the Jesus Christians to live and work with us?"

The truth is that we are BOTH free, and we each choose what we want to do. You choose to stay out of the JCs and I choose to continue with them. As long as we are both trying to what we believe God wants us to do, we will both be building God's kingdom.