This is my first posting, just wanted to express solidarity with all you ex-JCs and thank Matilda for her work, alway provocative, sometimes /funny--if anything to do with Dave Mckay wasn't so sad.
I'll post again soon.
Dave, you think you knew who Matilda is, but guess what...

Dave has commented on my posts, claiming that I am Leisel and attacking her on his website. A word of advice, make some attempt to get your facts straight when making wild guesses about a posters identity. I am not Leisel. You got it wrong. You owe her an apology.

It does demonstrate his strategy. Dave believes that the best line of defence is attack and he tongue lashes his critics (and at times his community) with abandon. Getting the wrong target makes him look very foolish and nasty.

Dave is repeating a pattern he demonstrated earlier, when he claimed to identify Tony , and began criticising him, but got it completely wrong. I can understand that he would be annoyed about the Children of God link being so well documented. He calls it 'guilt by association', missing the point quite deliberately. The point is that the group is an offshoot, and is derived from the same teachings as the source. [b:1247060fa9]An off shoot is something that branches out or derives its existence or origin from a particular source[/b:1247060fa9].

Dave's own explanation of how the Jesus Christians were 'born' illustrates the point . Let Dave tell us in his own words
[i:1247060fa9] '[b:1247060fa9]Nevertheless, there are a few things I may be able to comment on that you have missed. Yes, there was a letter from 'Mo' (David Berg) that I hung onto for a while way back in the late 70s. He wrote to me personally ]when I said that I liked some of what he was saying but I wanted to see what I could do about getting those thoughts across to people inside the churches. He more or less said, "Good luck. If you can get them to listen, you're a better man than I am."[/b:1247060fa9] [/color:1247060fa9]It was a good souvenir for a while, but I threw it away a short time after I left them. (As you can see, people here will go to great lengths to find something to make a big deal of!)
[/i:1247060fa9]
( Extrract from p3 of this thread Posted: 09-06-2006 02:47 AM Post subject: From Dave McKay)


If Dave denies that the JC are an offshoot of the COG, then perhaps he should attempt to do so via the normal route, by explanation and citation rather than just lashing out at the first innocent granny who springs to mind to prove his point.

It is not the first time he has used the character assassination [/color:1247060fa9] ploy to silence his critics.

For a man who is well practised in fending off relatives, the insults directed at an innocent grandmother should not surprise us. In fact, it would be a total surprise to hear him praise a few parents /grandparents.

As a general rule of thumb, it is wise to take what he says, with a ton of salt or even to invert the meaning completely. Dave believes that the 'end justifies the means' ( his end is to silence Matilda) and is 'honest about his dishonesty' which, of course, is a total mindbender to us but makes perfect sense in his bizarre world.

Tongue lashings, litigation or having parents arrested are not something we normally associate with religious communities.

Someone commented on this thread, that the current members of the group face the same shocking fate, when they leave, if they show any sign of waxing critical about the group.

Guess what Dave... after people see the light and they free themselves from under your claws, they get on with their lives. They pick up from where you diverted them into your misery and slavery. They leave you behind Dave, don't fancy yourself otherwise. You fade like a dark blimp on their horizon.
To all you present JCs. We are here to welcome you back into society, where you are free to think for yourselves. It's never too late. Dave is evil. This is especially addressed to Josef. Your mother is crying her eyes out. Run, Josef, run....

Dear Matilda,

I applaud for your efforts on the JC's site and the very fact that David sees fit to attack (who he thinks is) you, bears testimony to the quality of your efforts here. (While I don't actually know who you are Matilda, if I were to lay some "red herrings" I wonder if it would be possible to tempt David to ridicule himself.....hmm!)...AHEM...again I thank you for all your postings Matilda. I am mindful of course, that it must be particularly difficult for you at this time following your recent acrimonious and highly public split from Justin Timberlake....

I believe you asked me about some details of the “fabrications” David engages in a previous posting….

When I was a member ('81-'85) David had a brown leather bound copy of David Bergs teachings (in animated pamphlet form) stashed away with many other "important documents" in his bedroom. It was kept out of public eye as David well knew the “bad press” it would so easily generate. I saw the volume on several occasions and actually leafed through it once...His statement that he kept nothing "more than a letter" from Mo is an outright lie. Of course, after 22 years he may no longer hold the volume in question (and it is likely he will publically deny ever having had such a thing...but naturally we all understand how much weight to put into a "denial" from David McKay, don't we….!)

I don’t think the worst excesses of the COG's "theology" were actually adhered to (at least while I was in the JC’s although that I admit here that I have little direct comparative experience of the COG’s themselves) and David appeared to drew on the COG teachings purely for the extensive scriptural references their work contained, where he considered the material “biblical” (Flirty fishing was unbliblical!)

Of course having heard David tell the “faithful” down the years (as I assume other have heard on many a time) that “You won’t be a good leader, if you can’t be a good follower” isn’t it interesting to note that David was never a good “follower” himself…In his own self –conceit, taking the first opportunity to strike out on his own……a principled stand against “flirty fishing”…..or the megalomaniacal appeal of using COG material to create his own little religious empire……I guess we can only judge from the “fruits” can’t we!


The introductory pages in “Across the Nullabor (now titled “The Walk of Faith” and apparently not included in the Easy English version of the book) outlining the lead up to the walk are an exercise in “spin”. A lot of the events and all of the direct quotes are fictious (Not of course the quotes later recorded directly out of the diaries kept during the actual event). The idea for the walk across the Nullabor originated with David, and the “while lies” he engages in here are designed to better “sell” the people involved. David is aware that the Christians wider “public image” will suffer if the extent of his own role in running the whole show is made obvious. Hence he invents a more “suitable” history.

While walking across the Nullarbor I had a vivid dream one evening, that David stealthily came up and secretly shot me while we were sleeping, and that while I was too injured to be able to speak up for myself he then persuaded the others (in the “Christians” as we were called at that time) that I had died of “natural causes”, and then led everyone away from me while I lay dying. Only the youngest member, Rachel, realized that I was still alive, but she was too young too be taken seriously by the others.

I recorded this dream and mailed it on with the other diary entries I kept. Surprise me…but in the final printed copy of the book, what do we read other than that at a certain point during the walk Malcolm began to have “problems” and that the number of diary entries he subsequently submitted began to “decline”….all willful lies on the part of David McKay as he began to take steps to “airbrush” me out of later history. (…well the “problems” with Davids penchant for deceit may have been real enough….by the time the walk was over it was clear to me that my time with Christians had come to an end).

Malcolm

Thanks for sharing Malcolm. It is true that you were "airbrushed" out of things as time moved on. I was in the JC's from 90-97, and I too was dealt with in a similar manner.

I see amazing parrallels between the JC's and George Orwell's "Animal Farm", i.e. dissenters are quickly silenced and discarded, the rules continually changing, the residents of the community working harder and harder to maintain the head pig's empire and reputation, the faithful get no rest, instead being spiritually killed one day.

I was in from 90 - 97 and there was still a swag of COG material in the community. The "Baby books" were COG imitations with Dave's slant on them. It is true that Dave has copied a lot of what the COG's did and do. I personally used to visit the Family often to get our vegies from one of their houses, as well as formed friendships with some of them. I used to find it amusing how Dave would get hot under the collar at the relaxed attitudes of some of them when they would challenge his strictness on JC members.

The Family, for all the negative publicity they have received, and some of it rightfully, were much more considerate of their members than is Dave. So I would say that the JC's in breaking off from the COG's originally to form his own little group became more militant than the group from which he was birthed.

Dave used to hang around the Family quite a lot during this time period because he wanted to try and pry their youth away from them. I think it was more jealousy of the groups success than it was genuine concern for the youth. Another case of predatory actions of splitting families and teaching youth to disrespect their parents.

Thanks to Malcolm and Apostate for confirming the existence of COG literature in the Jesus Christians over a long period of time. A few levels of membership are availabe to the Family (COG) faithful and much of the literature was written for Disciples Only (DO) who were a committed part of the revolution and sent their tithe to World Services in support of Family missionaries. As recently as 2002/3 Dave expressed cpncern for the Family missionaries who he claimed were adversely affected by Sword of the Lord. It is revealing that Dave McKay still refers to Berg as [i:49bae2d37a]Mo[/i:49bae2d37a], attributing some prophet status to him. Ex members who have RENOUNCED Berg prefer to avoid using names such as [i:49bae2d37a]Mo[/i:49bae2d37a], renouncing his delusion of prophethood. Dave may have disagreed with some of the later teachings but he sure as hell agreed with the main teachings and proved it by peddling COG literature through the JC's. Eventually,when the Family queried the matter, he began to adapt the literature. For a group who take RENOUNCING so seriously, it is significant that there has never been a renouncement of Berg.

Apostate has already mentioned the Baby Books. Anyone ever heard of [i:49bae2d37a]Holy Holes[/i:49bae2d37a] ? Lets give Dave a chance to explain it himself.


Here are [b:49bae2d37a]some[/b:49bae2d37a] of the antics of the COG led by Berg.
It would be interesting to document how they were copied by the JC's led by McKay.

Info derived from exfamily'org

1 Sackcloth Demonstrations
In the fall of 1969, members began staging "sackcloth demonstrations"—dressed in sackcloth with ashes on their foreheads—first in Washington DC, then Philadelphia, Times Square in New York, and outside the U.N. Headquarters. The press called them "prophets of doom" for proclaiming the imminent fall and destruction of the US.

2. In Washington, DC the group staged what it called a "public vigil"—members wore large wooden yokes around their necks to symbolize their mourning for a falling nation. Many carried placards displaying excerpts of Virginia Berg's (David Berg's mother) Warning Prophecy, which Berg believed heralded his arrival as the "endtime prophet," .

3. Dramatic appearance wearing sackcloth and carrying Bibles, to "witness Christ" among university students. One-on-one, members targeted the counter-culture youth, stressing to potential recruits the imminent destruction of the world, and the return of Jesus.

4. MWM

5. Art work (Comix)

6. Infiltration of Churches to spread Berg's message


7. Many early [i:49bae2d37a]MO[/i:49bae2d37a] letters were based on his/ groups dreams in the early days. As the delusion grew, these evolved into spirit guides.


Malcolm, thank you for your concern . Yes, its been tough lately, on Justin too, but the clouds are lifting. The thought of Dave being a 'better man' than Berg warms my heart.

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Dogmother
This is my first posting, just wanted to express solidarity with all you ex-JCs and thank Matilda for her work, alway provocative, sometimes /funny--if anything to do with Dave Mckay wasn't so sad.
I'll post again soon.
Dave, you think you knew who Matilda is, but guess what...

Hello Dogmother, good to have you here with Matilda, Apostate, Zeusor, Malcolm and others who are doing a fine job here and ensuring that this year will go down in the JC records as their 'annus horribulus', Yes, I did feel a bit guilty laughing at Matt's [i:2f72d79ae9]purple parrot[/i:2f72d79ae9] post. Heath and Michelle will be posting here next!

Quote
apostate

Quote
zeuszor

Ex-members of the JCs, can you describe for me please why you tend to be critical of that group, and what your main objections are?

Hmmm. OK, lets go for another trip around the merry go round.

[b:0c90ba0643][list:0c90ba0643]1. David teaches and utilises deception (see past discussions about thefts and welfare fraud)

2. David teaches his group to IGNORE the teachings of Jesus in favour of his own interpretations (see Killers for Jesus thread where Dave justifies killing people when circumstances dictate)

3. David teaches his followers to run roughshod over the top of the feelings and concerns of family members by teaching them that they no longer have to have any contact with family members unless they accept JC doctrines of the group having final say on who comes in to there house.

4. David uses emotional blackmail on members families, ex members, and his own children by stating that they will not be permitted to see loved ones unless they comply with his dictates.

5. David teaches his members that it is OK to whip people for sins they have committed against his group (see discussion about the Kenyan volunteer they whipped on their "Quaker" community)

6. David teaches his members that there is no force involved in sexual relations between a child and an adult paedophile (see discussions on his forum under the "sex thread")

7. David teaches that third world women are intrinsically bad because their lust and wantoness for western materialism motivated them to seduce their husbands away from Jesus

8. David teaches that he is an "annointed apostle" without which all would be led astray.

9. David has reversed his original "Churchianity VS Christianity" teachings by teaching the above "annointed apostle" doctrine as it negates previous teachings about each member having a direct connection to God without the need of hiearchial structures.

10. David directed his community to "break" one of his children, while ignoring the emotional crisis the son was experiencing.

11. David has created an atmosphere of peer pressure for males to receive vascetomies.

12. David teaches that biblical passages related to "living sacrifices" and "He who has two should give to those who have none" relate to body parts.

13. David undermines the goals of families by covertly meeting with children, legally minors, to sow seeds of doubt in their minds about their parents motivations. The end result is that the family is ripped asunder, resulting in them experiencing loss and grief.

14. David takes people to court for money if they criticise him

15. David teaches his members that begging for donations on the street in order to meet a strict distribution quota is not working for money. In reality his has become the like thief master in Oliver Twist teachings the kids how to rob passerbys.

16. David falsely claims to have "forsaken all", while having NEVER relinquished his position of authority within the JC's or having ever worked as an equal in a community. He also happily lives in government flat provided by Australian welfare while members live in vans.

17. David teaches that manipulation is good, and proves the point by pretending to be a concerned mother writing to cult busting groups about her son who had been sucked into his group (see discussion about "Anita Foster").

18. David teaches that ex members have fallen away from God, because they disagree with his teachings.
[/list:u:0c90ba0643][/b:0c90ba0643]

Well that should do for starters. The list really seems to go on and on and on. But, I think there a few there, and I am only one member. I am sure the others have more.

Excellent list Apostate

[b:0c90ba0643]19. David teaches that Sincerity is the same as Faith.

20. David teaches others to manipulate situations for the benefit of the group. He claims that manipulation is just good management.

21. David teaches that the end justiifies the means.

22. David promotes double standards,insisting that recruits forsake all private property. The group has just purchased land they are building on in Kenya, in his daughter's name. (ic website)

23. David does not admit to new recruits that most of his teachings are based on Berg's.

24. David promotes double standards by holding other people accountable for their actions and manipulating situations where he might be held accountable himself.

25 David teaches that it is permissible to have harmless grieving relatives arrested to get them out of the way, rather than lose a potential recruit.

26. David teaches that having a conscience is bad.

27. David teaches that the end of the world is coming soon. This orobablty coincides with Family teaching.

28. David, unlike inspiritional leaders, has a very bad temper.

29. David teaches recruits to tell lies.

30. David vets communication.

31. David demands frequent and intrusive reports.

32. David expels/ isolates recruits from group when they are 'out of the spirit' / weak leaving them fearful for their salvation, having been convinced there is none outside the group.

33. David gets the best food for himself

34. David insists that ex members do not take literature out of the group when they leave [/b:0c90ba0643]

Quote
muppet

Quote
apostate

Quote
zeuszor

Ex-members of the JCs, can you describe for me please why you tend to be critical of that group, and what your main objections are?

Hmmm. OK, lets go for another trip around the merry go round.

[b:7d5b995b72][list:7d5b995b72]1. David teaches and utilises deception (see past discussions about thefts and welfare fraud)

2. David teaches his group to IGNORE the teachings of Jesus in favour of his own interpretations (see Killers for Jesus thread where Dave justifies killing people when circumstances dictate)

3. David teaches his followers to run roughshod over the top of the feelings and concerns of family members by teaching them that they no longer have to have any contact with family members unless they accept JC doctrines of the group having final say on who comes in to there house.

4. David uses emotional blackmail on members families, ex members, and his own children by stating that they will not be permitted to see loved ones unless they comply with his dictates.

5. David teaches his members that it is OK to whip people for sins they have committed against his group (see discussion about the Kenyan volunteer they whipped on their "Quaker" community)

6. David teaches his members that there is no force involved in sexual relations between a child and an adult paedophile (see discussions on his forum under the "sex thread")

7. David teaches that third world women are intrinsically bad because their lust and wantoness for western materialism motivated them to seduce their husbands away from Jesus

8. David teaches that he is an "annointed apostle" without which all would be led astray.

9. David has reversed his original "Churchianity VS Christianity" teachings by teaching the above "annointed apostle" doctrine as it negates previous teachings about each member having a direct connection to God without the need of hiearchial structures.

10. David directed his community to "break" one of his children, while ignoring the emotional crisis the son was experiencing.

11. David has created an atmosphere of peer pressure for males to receive vascetomies.

12. David teaches that biblical passages related to "living sacrifices" and "He who has two should give to those who have none" relate to body parts.

13. David undermines the goals of families by covertly meeting with children, legally minors, to sow seeds of doubt in their minds about their parents motivations. The end result is that the family is ripped asunder, resulting in them experiencing loss and grief.

14. David takes people to court for money if they criticise him

15. David teaches his members that begging for donations on the street in order to meet a strict distribution quota is not working for money. In reality his has become the like thief master in Oliver Twist teachings the kids how to rob passerbys.

16. David falsely claims to have "forsaken all", while having NEVER relinquished his position of authority within the JC's or having ever worked as an equal in a community. He also happily lives in government flat provided by Australian welfare while members live in vans.

17. David teaches that manipulation is good, and proves the point by pretending to be a concerned mother writing to cult busting groups about her son who had been sucked into his group (see discussion about "Anita Foster").

18. David teaches that ex members have fallen away from God, because they disagree with his teachings.
[/list:u:7d5b995b72][/b:7d5b995b72]

Well that should do for starters. The list really seems to go on and on and on. But, I think there a few there, and I am only one member. I am sure the others have more.

Excellent list Apostate

[b:7d5b995b72]19. David teaches that Sincerity is the same as Faith.

20. David teaches others to manipulate situations for the benefit of the group. He claims that manipulation is just good management.

21. David teaches that the end justiifies the means.

22. David promotes double standards,insisting that recruits forsake all private property. The group has just purchased land they are building on in Kenya, in his daughter's name. (ic website)

23. David does not admit to new recruits that most of his teachings are based on Berg's.

24. David promotes double standards by holding other people accountable for their actions and manipulating situations where he might be held accountable himself.

25 David teaches that it is permissible to have harmless grieving relatives arrested to get them out of the way, rather than lose a potential recruit.

26. David teaches that having a conscience is bad.

27. David teaches that the end of the world is coming soon. This orobablty coincides with Family teaching.

28. David, unlike inspiritional leaders, has a very bad temper.

29. David teaches recruits to tell lies.

30. David vets communication.

31. David demands frequent and intrusive reports.

32. David expels/ isolates recruits from group when they are 'out of the spirit' / weak leaving them fearful for their salvation, having been convinced there is none outside the group.

33. David gets the best food for himself

34. David insists that ex members do not take literature out of the group when they leave [/b:7d5b995b72]

Thanks Muppet... good additions. After reading Dave's latest rant at [welikejesus.com]

I have another to add[b:7d5b995b72]
[list:7d5b995b72]
35. David teaches others that he has the "gift of spiritual discernment", even writing in books boastfully that his young disciples are "amazed" by it.[/list:u:7d5b995b72][/b:7d5b995b72]

I am surprised at how important it is for Dave to be right. I guess in his mind he equates his suspicions and paranoia with direction from God... and that may be attributing too much sincerity to him. Talk about being deluded!

He continues to accuse Tony Barry of being "Apostate", and "Matilda" of being Liesel. And his sycophants are swallowing it hook line and sinker, just likes he states in his book where they are all "amazed" at his dscernment. Who cares who is who! It just shows what he is really interested in, i.e. discovering the identity of those who criticise him so he can use it against them somehow. Remember how he used to teach us when we were in the group that the insincere would be asking who you are, where you are from, what is your covering, etc. as a way of ignoring what was being said or as a way to attack and hurt you. Do you think he would apply the same rule of guidance to himself now? I doubt it, because that is what hypocrisy means, according to his own standards.

As much I would love to identify myself to Dave. I am not stupid. I know him, and that he enjoys taking people who crticise him to court for money (see greivance #14). He should keep guessing... gee, did I say guessing... I should say "listening to God's direction about who is who" as that is who he says whispers in his ear isn't it. It all proves that he is obviously not listening to any divine being, and as such is a liar who bluffs his way through life.

As to his connections with the COG's. He definately plagerised stuff from them, i.e. his phraseology "churchianity". Dave says he made that one up himself. It was funny watching Elyas expose that little lie on his forum by quoting a time when David Berg said it back in the sixties.. :lol: :lol:

But plagerism is what he is all about. He likes to glean bits from all the groups he has met and incorporate it into what he is doing. The 12 tribes was a group he met once in Sydney, led by some guy called "Yonek". They ran a restaurant as a witness to the world, and now the JC's are doing the same in Kenya. David was impressed by him, when in reality he was as big a meglomanic as Dave. Dave was envious of his level of sucess though.

I am so thankful that Dave is a bit of a loser as far as cult leaders go, and that his influence, although bad, is quite small when compared to David Berg's or Yonek's.