Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Brad69
()
Date: November 04, 2006 03:45PM
I took a look at the Jesus Christians' message board and came across this post from Dave McKay:
Seems to me we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Dave McKay has been asked many reasonable questions on this forum, but chooses to ignore them. I guess he is
Quote
Be careful, folks, about not getting too impatient for a response. It's not unrealistic to consider that Fred doesn't have constant access to the forum. It was only last night (Aussie time) that he last posted.
[b:c5f974d7d9]On the other hand, if you are talking about the fact that he has evaded any comments or questions for which he has no answer, [/b:c5f974d7d9]that's the most common tactic for critics who are not really looking for the truth.
You'll see a lot of that when people come on to fire away and then disappear if the questions get too hard. It's the wonderful thing about the forum... people get to make their criticisms public, BUT (and it's a big but) they also have to accept that their criticisms are going to be criticised... and dishonest people don't like that.
Seems to me we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Dave McKay has been asked many reasonable questions on this forum, but chooses to ignore them. I guess he is
[/b:c5f974d7d9]Quote
[b:c5f974d7d9]not really looking for the truth.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
free of DM
()
Date: November 04, 2006 09:19PM
Quote
a mother
I hope you can overcome your prejudices of my pseudonym. I know that ‘mother’ has negative connotations in the community. However, I choose to represent myself this way because that is what I am – a female and a mother. I am also an ex-member and have recently discovered these posts. I am disappointed by the childishness of some of the comments from both sides, really.
The reasons I left the community were simple- I saw with my own eyes the poor way that women and children were treated in the community.
* The lifestyle meant that women did the lion-share of the menial work. Women were expected to do the washing, cleaning, shopping, and cooking for up to twenty men, on top of home-schooling and maintaining leaflet distribution quotas.
* Children needed to be quiet for extended periods of time. If they made too much noise in meetings they were smacked forcefully and repeatedly.
* Parents were forced by Dave to discipline their children (if for example Dave thought the one to three year old was talking or laughing too much).
* Children were made to eat the cheaper food items while Dave asked for the nicer cuts of meat on his sandwiches (Kids growing bodies need the better nutrition)
* I saw Dave’s example of a very unhappy marriage. I don’t need to go into detail here Dave, but let’s say force and domination is not a way to show love. To Cherry my heart bleeds for you – there are counselors and people who could help you overcome your emotional pain-it’s never too late.
* Women and children were often put in their place through verbal insults. Some women in the group have been made too feel too dumb, mentally unstable or weak.
On a whole I think the Jesus Christians is a small group of people who need one another. I know that a lot of people have come from abusive backgrounds. I learned that my reason for joining was the same. However I wish you could see that Dave continues the abusive pattern in your life. He was abused as a child, he abuses you. He mostly abuses women and children, but also weak males like Ross, Martin and Roland.
As a concerned mother my heart is full of grief at the lives you’ve lost. You replaced the abuse and neglect from your childhoods to abuse from Dave. Deep down you know I’m right.
Guys, there is a loving God free from abuse and put-downs, manipulation and control. A loving God who doesn’t need your works to love you. A God that is happy if you walk hand in hand with your children, a God happy for you to have two kidneys and a penis that fires fertile bullets. A loving God who doesn’t need you to whip others for him to believe you love him. Truly.
God loves you…
Jesus was a pacifist…
Let the children come to him…
I have also posted this on the www.welikejesus.com forum
I was never abused, but Dave, the big prophet reinterpreted my life for me and told me I was. Get this, I accapted . I did not know what i was getting into. It happened so quick. Thought I would be a missionary. so I never joined this group. I was tricked. I wanted to leave but they made sure i didn. I dont need them and never did. They stole part of my life. Someonw said they nice people and may be they were but they are not now. Dave just rants on and Cherry can tell lies like no one else .
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
PtolemyGlenn
()
Date: November 04, 2006 10:16PM
Hmmm i have looked over alot of this thread and it's really sad to see some of you people attacking Dave McKay.
I am a Christian (no not a JC) and it seems to me, none of you have any idea of forgivness, letting go of the past and love.
It is silly that people are still holding petty grudges after years after leaving, get on with life, so you didnt like it in the JC, kewl but dont wallow in self pity all your life, playing the victim is only good for so long than it get pathetic.
From what i've seen Dave and other JC I have spoken to a really nice people, i wish i could say the same for some of you in here.
Im not sure if this will be posted, i posted one the other week but it never gt posted on the forum, i guess you mainly just want negative comments, which i wont give.
Peace out and all that jazz
Glenn
I am a Christian (no not a JC) and it seems to me, none of you have any idea of forgivness, letting go of the past and love.
It is silly that people are still holding petty grudges after years after leaving, get on with life, so you didnt like it in the JC, kewl but dont wallow in self pity all your life, playing the victim is only good for so long than it get pathetic.
From what i've seen Dave and other JC I have spoken to a really nice people, i wish i could say the same for some of you in here.
Im not sure if this will be posted, i posted one the other week but it never gt posted on the forum, i guess you mainly just want negative comments, which i wont give.
Peace out and all that jazz
Glenn
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 04, 2006 11:28PM
PtlolemyGlenn:
It's hard to believe that you are not a member. Maybe you are considering becoming one and/or financially supporting the group and are now in the "honeymoon stage" with Dave and his followers.
Dave McKay is responsible for a great deal of suffering, family estrangement and genereal destruction.
People may forgive Dave his sins and the harm he has done as the narcissistic cult leader he is, but that doesn't mean they should remain silent.
By posting here the former members of the group are helping the genereal public better understand Dave, his real history and the ways he manipulates people.
And that's a good thing.
The more that the public becomes aware about how deeply disturbed Dave is, and the potential dangers of becoming involved with him, the better off everyone will be and the likely he is to hurt others.
If you wish to support Dave McKay that's your choice. But don't come here to criticize others for relating their painful experiences, which you appear to know nothing about.
They don't want "pity," but rather to inform the public about a dangerous man and his influence.
Frankly, based upon your comments you seem to se only what you want to, and appear to be someine deeply in denial regarding McKay and his followers, if you have actually met them.
It doesn't take a genius to see what a deeply disturbed person Dave McKay is based upon his public statements and behavior.
It's hard to believe that you are not a member. Maybe you are considering becoming one and/or financially supporting the group and are now in the "honeymoon stage" with Dave and his followers.
Dave McKay is responsible for a great deal of suffering, family estrangement and genereal destruction.
People may forgive Dave his sins and the harm he has done as the narcissistic cult leader he is, but that doesn't mean they should remain silent.
By posting here the former members of the group are helping the genereal public better understand Dave, his real history and the ways he manipulates people.
And that's a good thing.
The more that the public becomes aware about how deeply disturbed Dave is, and the potential dangers of becoming involved with him, the better off everyone will be and the likely he is to hurt others.
If you wish to support Dave McKay that's your choice. But don't come here to criticize others for relating their painful experiences, which you appear to know nothing about.
They don't want "pity," but rather to inform the public about a dangerous man and his influence.
Frankly, based upon your comments you seem to se only what you want to, and appear to be someine deeply in denial regarding McKay and his followers, if you have actually met them.
It doesn't take a genius to see what a deeply disturbed person Dave McKay is based upon his public statements and behavior.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
apostate
()
Date: November 05, 2006 05:42AM
Quote
PtolemyGlennQuote
Hmmm i have looked over alot of this thread and it's really sad to see some of you people attacking Dave McKay.
Wrong Glenn. There are a lot of people criticising his actions and teachings. People who know more about his behavior than you seem to.
Some questions for you Glenn:
Are you sad?
Do you think we are all making it up?
Are all our experiences simply fantasies to be ignored?Quote
I am a Christian (no not a JC) and it seems to me, none of you have any idea of forgivness, letting go of the past and love.
So if some of us have been treated badly by Dave we should just let it go and forget it rather than tell it for how it was. Ex cult members need to be able to express themselves in order to let go of the past. Concerned mother posted her concerns, all of which were valid I might add, on the JC forum only to be told she was wrong. And that is the thing, right there, that is criticised by some of us. The JC's deny other people their feelings, their understanding of what is happening to them. Instead it is reinterpreted to make them appear rebellious because the alternate for the JC's is to accept that they are a cult that runs rough shod over the top of people..Quote
It is silly that people are still holding petty grudges after years after leaving, get on with life, so you didnt like it in the JC, kewl but dont wallow in self pity all your life, playing the victim is only good for so long than it get pathetic.
Are you in Australia Glenn? If so, do you view Australia's indigenous population seeking an apology from the Australian government years after the stolen generation to be pathetic, and a sign that they are wallowing in self pity? That fact is Glenn, even though you seem to deny it, a lot of people have been hurt by their time in the Jesus Christians. Sure we can choose to forget it all and move on, and to some extent a lot of us have done that. But frankly since the move to more radical behavior, i.e. whipping people, it has become neccessary to speak up exposing the cult for how it really is.Quote
From what i've seen Dave and other JC I have spoken to a really nice people, i wish i could say the same for some of you in here.
Tell you what Glenn, join the JC's. Sell everything you own, give all the money away and go on the street distributing tracts with them for a year meeting all your quotas. Leave all your family members behind, quit your job, and accept that all mail will be scrutinised by leaders. Get involved in a few grievance meetings where you are the target. It won't be hard because it will be part of the breaking down process. New meat always goes through a honeymoon stage, at least a week or two. So Glenn Join up. Nothing like first hand experience to help a person see what is really going on. Seriously from your position it will be hard for you to know what is true. All you have to go on are people's word.
You have said the JC's are really nice people. Well, we are really nice people too Glenn, but that will be a little harder for you to see because we challenge Dave's erroneous teachings. So Go for it, join them. Become part of the 144,000 virgins of God making a visible tribe of Israel on earth before the return of Jesus.Quote
Im not sure if this will be posted, i posted one the other week but it never gt posted on the forum, i guess you mainly just want negative comments, which i wont give.
Rather than accuse moderators falsely, Glenn consider the possibility that some glitch happened.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: November 05, 2006 06:32AM
PtolemyGlenn, as the others have mentioned we have a right to speak about our JC experience. I know that I am not wallowing in self pity and it doesn't sound like all the others are either. I think that we have a responsibility to give a more rounded picture of the group. I am trying to just present things as I saw or experienced them.
The first to present his case seems right,
till another comes forward and questions him.
Proverbs 18:7 (NIV)
The first to present his case seems right,
till another comes forward and questions him.
Proverbs 18:7 (NIV)
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: November 05, 2006 06:44AM
I wanted to add a few comments concerning children in the group.
As Concerned Mother wrote, they do have to take a back seat to practically everything.
The group has little to no concern about their education. Parents have to really push to get the time to homeschool them. They like children stop schooling by 14 at the latest.
They figure that there is more for children to learn wandering around shopping malls and parking lots selling books. I guess it is an education of sorts. They learn to dodge and lie to security guards and police officers. They learn how to be rude and unpleasant to adults who show concern for their safety or ask where their parents are.
As Concerned Mother mentioned the children have to be very quiet for long periods of time and endure long meetings pretty much daily. They are pushed to think and act like adults.
As Concerned Mother wrote, they do have to take a back seat to practically everything.
The group has little to no concern about their education. Parents have to really push to get the time to homeschool them. They like children stop schooling by 14 at the latest.
They figure that there is more for children to learn wandering around shopping malls and parking lots selling books. I guess it is an education of sorts. They learn to dodge and lie to security guards and police officers. They learn how to be rude and unpleasant to adults who show concern for their safety or ask where their parents are.
As Concerned Mother mentioned the children have to be very quiet for long periods of time and endure long meetings pretty much daily. They are pushed to think and act like adults.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: November 05, 2006 06:47AM
To be fair, I should add that there are certain members who make extra effort to encourage and play with the children.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
cultmalleus
()
Date: November 05, 2006 07:11AM
Glenn,
Others have said similar things but just to put in my 2 cents worth;
I don't know any ex member who is wallowing in self pity. We are all getting on with our lives, most with young families, and we are all so glad about the decision we took to leave the group. We moved on, enjoying our lives and freedom more and more as we broke free psychologically from Dave and the JC way of thinking.
However, we cannot just ignore and forget the past. When the whole whipping thing came up I think it crystallised a lot of our past experiences with the JC's. The whipping became a metaphor for what we had gone through. It outraged us and spurred us into some sort of action. It made us reflect on our experiences and start to share them openly, publicly, so that other people would be aware of what they are getting themselves in for when they join the JC's.
I and others have found this sharing therapeutic, as we are standing up to a bully, and we realise that we are right and he is wrong. We are also hopeful that others who are thinking of joining this group out of loneliness, father hunger, apocalyptic thinking or a lack of meaning in their lives will reconsider their options.
Loneliness and meaninglessness are very valid reasons to change one's life and try something new. But there are so many much more positive non-cult options out there! It is great to be idealistic to want to make the world a better place, it is great to have burning Christian ideals to reach out to others.
In the long run you will achieve so much more if you avoid the Jesus Christians "quick fix" route to righteousness. There are many non-cult groups you can join and work with. You can be so much more effective if you do not give up your freedom.
Dave or his apologists will of course demand to know what we are doing, to prove to him that we are being more "effective for God or love" outside the group. As we have seen that dave is unpredictable and possibly capable of harming our lives or reputations we choose not to answer his questions as this can lead to identification. The second part to this, as I have discussed earlier, is that bringing up our children in a better way, is itself, one of the most effective actions we can take to make the world a better place, to end cycles of neglect and abuse. To end it now will be to end it for future generations.
Others have said similar things but just to put in my 2 cents worth;
I don't know any ex member who is wallowing in self pity. We are all getting on with our lives, most with young families, and we are all so glad about the decision we took to leave the group. We moved on, enjoying our lives and freedom more and more as we broke free psychologically from Dave and the JC way of thinking.
However, we cannot just ignore and forget the past. When the whole whipping thing came up I think it crystallised a lot of our past experiences with the JC's. The whipping became a metaphor for what we had gone through. It outraged us and spurred us into some sort of action. It made us reflect on our experiences and start to share them openly, publicly, so that other people would be aware of what they are getting themselves in for when they join the JC's.
I and others have found this sharing therapeutic, as we are standing up to a bully, and we realise that we are right and he is wrong. We are also hopeful that others who are thinking of joining this group out of loneliness, father hunger, apocalyptic thinking or a lack of meaning in their lives will reconsider their options.
Loneliness and meaninglessness are very valid reasons to change one's life and try something new. But there are so many much more positive non-cult options out there! It is great to be idealistic to want to make the world a better place, it is great to have burning Christian ideals to reach out to others.
In the long run you will achieve so much more if you avoid the Jesus Christians "quick fix" route to righteousness. There are many non-cult groups you can join and work with. You can be so much more effective if you do not give up your freedom.
Dave or his apologists will of course demand to know what we are doing, to prove to him that we are being more "effective for God or love" outside the group. As we have seen that dave is unpredictable and possibly capable of harming our lives or reputations we choose not to answer his questions as this can lead to identification. The second part to this, as I have discussed earlier, is that bringing up our children in a better way, is itself, one of the most effective actions we can take to make the world a better place, to end cycles of neglect and abuse. To end it now will be to end it for future generations.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
snuggles
()
Date: November 05, 2006 12:50PM
Glenn.
kewl, so you don't believe you should 'question those that have rule over you' or, pulling them up on severe "wrong doings"-and crimes against humanity?
Well I do. At least, I think it's best to point out to others -call me silly-the hole they are about to step into, especially when you know it's there.
Thats what Free Speech is all about isnt it?. You choose to take a differing opinion on board or not. But you shouldn't do so, or not, due to fear, propoganda, alienation and bullying etc..
Is it right do you think, to allow someone to get away with it? Is there a scale of crimes? Who decides where to put them on the scale?
Should you demand that people forgive you, without the remorse?
Redemption, an interesting subject. If you won't/can't redeem yourself with your peers/fellow humans- does it make you turn to God for it? Who says what you want him to say?
How many smiles would you want to put on peoples faces to make up for all the tears? You wouldn't want to add to the latter would you? Every human should try and tip the balance towards the smiles IMO.
Should you overlook repetitive, systomatic, destructive, unapologetic, abusive ways? Wouldn't you say something? and maybe, even - Leave?
love? If love is looking the other way -( like not bringing it up- in a chat room forum? aka really moving on? are you serious!!!) in the face of abuse then it is sadly, repeating the cycle----as a child if an 'Uncle' (in the Children of God / The Family) wanted sexual gratification then I was not 'showing enough love' if I had a problem with it.
You are defining love -you are defining abuse -with different, backward, interpretations.-methods I have discovered to be inefective or harmful etc.
Does Dave Mckay consider beatings abuse? It is clear he does not.
Did David Berg view sex with children as abuse? no he did not.
( Do you want to live in a world where the Children of God's beliefs become prevailent?-where the age of consent is nill and girls of 13 become mothers?
Do you want to live in a world where Dave mckay is in the position to set the rules?- to beat and bully people and the slew of other negative and damaging activites, and telling the people "It's all Gods plan?" )
Because thats what they say they want-all cult leaders -to rule the world with their twisted, warped ideologies, with everyone a Yes Men.
Do they realise that they are a little fish in large waters, so strive to become big fish in small waters
needs to be careful what he teaches and demands of vunerable young people.
I am confident I do not want to settle for, or pass down a world like that so I will continue to speak up about these issues as you are free to take up yours.
You say; we are "playing at victims"
I say; "who's playing? This is serious! "
The only person I see on this thread, playing games- with peoples minds, sanity, lives and families is -Dave Mackay.
Lastly - Don't you think it's slightly odd for Dave Mckay to say that -no one "sticks around to listen to his replies" (or weird, that he seems not to grasp that his answers, excuses/ denials are just not good enough.) ( nor strange that he doesn't get the fact that we here are not cult leaders there for ehave not got to answer the same questions as he.)
We are here, none of us are going anywhere. And the more he behaves this way the more of us there will be. We are not likely to forget. And the Rick Ross Education Forum will be around long after David Mckay's gone, exposing others of the same ilk-and all that Jazz.
Respect and best wishes to Matilda, Apostate, Cul, Glad, Free.
kewl, so you don't believe you should 'question those that have rule over you' or, pulling them up on severe "wrong doings"-and crimes against humanity?
Well I do. At least, I think it's best to point out to others -call me silly-the hole they are about to step into, especially when you know it's there.
Thats what Free Speech is all about isnt it?. You choose to take a differing opinion on board or not. But you shouldn't do so, or not, due to fear, propoganda, alienation and bullying etc..
Is it right do you think, to allow someone to get away with it? Is there a scale of crimes? Who decides where to put them on the scale?
Should you demand that people forgive you, without the remorse?
Redemption, an interesting subject. If you won't/can't redeem yourself with your peers/fellow humans- does it make you turn to God for it? Who says what you want him to say?
How many smiles would you want to put on peoples faces to make up for all the tears? You wouldn't want to add to the latter would you? Every human should try and tip the balance towards the smiles IMO.
Should you overlook repetitive, systomatic, destructive, unapologetic, abusive ways? Wouldn't you say something? and maybe, even - Leave?
love? If love is looking the other way -( like not bringing it up- in a chat room forum? aka really moving on? are you serious!!!) in the face of abuse then it is sadly, repeating the cycle----as a child if an 'Uncle' (in the Children of God / The Family) wanted sexual gratification then I was not 'showing enough love' if I had a problem with it.
You are defining love -you are defining abuse -with different, backward, interpretations.-methods I have discovered to be inefective or harmful etc.
Does Dave Mckay consider beatings abuse? It is clear he does not.
Did David Berg view sex with children as abuse? no he did not.
( Do you want to live in a world where the Children of God's beliefs become prevailent?-where the age of consent is nill and girls of 13 become mothers?
Do you want to live in a world where Dave mckay is in the position to set the rules?- to beat and bully people and the slew of other negative and damaging activites, and telling the people "It's all Gods plan?" )
Because thats what they say they want-all cult leaders -to rule the world with their twisted, warped ideologies, with everyone a Yes Men.
Do they realise that they are a little fish in large waters, so strive to become big fish in small waters
needs to be careful what he teaches and demands of vunerable young people.
I am confident I do not want to settle for, or pass down a world like that so I will continue to speak up about these issues as you are free to take up yours.
You say; we are "playing at victims"
I say; "who's playing? This is serious! "
The only person I see on this thread, playing games- with peoples minds, sanity, lives and families is -Dave Mackay.
Lastly - Don't you think it's slightly odd for Dave Mckay to say that -no one "sticks around to listen to his replies" (or weird, that he seems not to grasp that his answers, excuses/ denials are just not good enough.) ( nor strange that he doesn't get the fact that we here are not cult leaders there for ehave not got to answer the same questions as he.)
We are here, none of us are going anywhere. And the more he behaves this way the more of us there will be. We are not likely to forget. And the Rick Ross Education Forum will be around long after David Mckay's gone, exposing others of the same ilk-and all that Jazz.
Respect and best wishes to Matilda, Apostate, Cul, Glad, Free.
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