And another thing: you do not remember correctly. I was never a Krishna. I was a member of their congregational community, and hung around the temple. I used to work for the restaurant Kaladchandji's. Why Hare Krishna? I was an atheist until met and I started studying with them. They were an instrumental bunch in my spiritual development. God eventually led me out of their idolatries and I was saved by His grace about 5 yrs ago. But I was never one of the shaved-head people who hands out flowers in the airport or something. So no, I was never a Hare Krsna, never even a bhatka, much less an initiated devotee. I pretty much was a peripheral member of the congregational community.

Xenophone, seems like you've been infected with the MCKay tendancy to resort to lashing out with Ad Hominem attacks when called out or asked uncomfortable questions. Look at this, brother.
Hey, Also, here are some good examples of Paul getting righteously angry, even engaging in making sarcastic remarks, and even calling false teachers out BY NAME in an effort to warn the churches about the snakes in their midst. And that was almost 2000 years ago! How much worse it is now.

1 Cor 4:6-13; 2 Timothy 2:15-18; 1 Timothy 1 18-20

Pretty pointed remarks, huh? More than a bit sarcastic, wouldn't you say? Paul's letters are replete with that pointed sarcasm.

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zeuszor
First of all, I never said that the Army is a cult, I said it is cult-like, and that a lot of the same dynamics of control are in place between that type of training and cult training. If you disagree wit hme, spend a few years in the Army and then try and tell me that. Second, if being treated for major depression and anxiety, if being in a shrink's care, being diagnosed with Obsessive-Complusive Disorder, and taking Prozac is a crime, then I am guilty. You have no idea how stressful and anxiety-producing Iraq was. The Army sucks, man. War sucks. Give me some credit, pardner. If I was that far off my rocker I would have never made it out of Basic, much less into the sandbox. For me to have been labeled as having a "personality disorder" by sadistic and abusive people like that is, like, a compliment. I resisted their sadistic bulls**t and they let me go, Praise God. Third, why the cult-hopping? You know, I was thinking on that today. You tell me, man. I also have a tendancy to drink too much and in the flesh am as cynical and angry at the world as McKay, Anthony, or any of the rest of them. So I ain't trying to play-Mr. Self-Righteous here. If thinking for myself and not just uncritically accepting whatever some joker wants me to swallow makes me somebody with a "personality disorder" then like I said before I'll wear it like the Medal of Honor.

Okay, so are you getting help now? I kind of know what OCD is like because I have a close friend who has it. However, I know that getting professional help can really do wonders. Anyway, I just thought it can help. Best of luck.

"Perhaps you join these groups knowing that they are easy targets for you to critisize them later while at the same time getting sympathy from others for having been "victimized" by them."

Untrue. I involve myself with these groups because I am like you; I want to find as pure an expression of Christianity and live as closely by Jesus' teahings as you do. But something I have figured out is that the Kingdom is not something we can see in the natural, only the Spirit can bring us intothe Kingdom, which is in YOU AND ME. (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21) So examine yourself as I examine myself, Brother No-Games, and kindly don't attack my character again (that 's called the Ad Hominem fallacy in logic, by the way), instead of recieving what I say with humilty and love, as I have tried to do for you.

'But I am ruling out everyone running off with their own opinions and saying that they have as much right as me to say what is right. The plain truth is that you don't.' [/color:11f42ac284]

Extracted from DM's 'Divine Authority' provided by Apostate.



Well the prophets be goofed! Just about everyone here is running off with their own opinions and ideas about what is right! That is their right

What of interpreting dreams? Is that also a control technique ?

hey zeuszor I understand what you've gone through, it takes time to get rid of the baggage of being in a cult. You should be proud of your courage for being a seeker after truth and to be able to join groups and do things that most people would find so scary, and then to have the courage to leave them too. I am also engaging in counselling (you have to find the right counsellour) who has really helped me understand everything I went through. There seems to me to be a very big correlation between joining a cult and having a "father hunger" of some sort; most of the JC's have had bad or absent fathers. I also believe that being willing to seek help is a sign of courage.

Xenophone, you seem to be a bit harsh on zeuszor, do you think you might still have some baggage from your time in the JC's? It can take time (years) and perspective to reflect on what really happened. You can still feel a compulsion to "preach the gospel" according to the JC's way when God actually just wants us to love eachother in a spirit of grace and peace.

It's amazing to open up your mind and soul to the everyday acts of love that are so widespread, to be free of a compulsive cult and see the kingdom of heaven all around you. The Western "system" has some problems but it has also overcome slavery, dictatorships, illiteracy, much poverty; in it's most advanced forms in Scandinavia it provides the best standards of living for everyone that have ever occurred, anywhere, in all of history. We concentrate on the evils which is probably important to continue to improve things, but it is important to look at history and the absolute drudgery, death and suffering that existed for 99% of the worlds population for millenia. We have emerged from that by the unfailing efforts of thousands of moral, corageous people who chipped away at evil, who campaigned to end slavery, to institute social welfare, for the vote, for the 8 hour day.

Even though our world population has increased dramatically, the proportion of people living in absolute poverty has actually decreased markedly in the last 50 years
[en.wikipedia.org]

Hitler and Stalin were both beaten mercilessly as children. So was Dave, I believe. As we develop gentler, kinder societies, fewer and fewer of us are willing to go to war with eachother.

Creating a better society can be as simple as genuinely loving our children and spending time with them.

There is still a huge job ahead of us to make the world a better place, but we will only improve the world by being kinder, not cruel, by working with the best parts of the system, not against it, and by rejecting medieval and apocalyptic "solutions" .

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muppet
Lies, lies and more lies Fran. I have just checked my sources again and you lied. You verbally attacked that woman before she likened you to the devil.

No, Muppet, I have not lied. I have told you exactly what took place that evening at the police station. But again, it is clear that you are not interested in the facts. Even if I were to prove to you 100% without a shadow of doubt that my statement is correct, you would simply ignore it and move on to something else that you though you could hang us on.

Also it is very evident that "your sources" are nothing more than newspaper cutouts. That is very clear based on your following quote:

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muppet
What lies. How could you tell someone that her son was not hers anymore and that he belonged yo your group now´

That was what the newspaper article falsely reported I had said. So, you just went to the newspaper article and then claimed that I have lied about what happened. The article, by the way, makes no mention to the mother having called me "Satan incarnate" nor when that took place. However I did not say that Kyri belonged to our group now and that he was no longer her son, and anyone who knows me would know that I would not say something so silly as that. The closest thing I said to it was that Kyri was not a child anymore (since he was 19) and that he was now a child of God and that she should stop treating him like a child. I never said anything about him belonging to us, as we do not own anybody.

Secondly, as I said, the truth is that the mother called me "Satan incarnate" as soon as I was introduced to her by her son. I had not verbally abused her. In fact I had hardly said anything to her at all. The only thing I had said after being introduced was "hello" and I offered to shake her hand. Neither did I verbally abuse her after she had called me that.

She tried to stop Kyri and me from going inside the police station and once Kyri was talking to the officer in charge, his mother was verbally abusing me, speaking to me in tongues (and putting "curses" on me according to her). Kyri's friend also was prodding me all the time and trying to get me to react. I tried my hardest to sit their quietly without saying a word to which Kyri's mother said "They have trained you well". Any time I tried to answer her many false accusations she just got even more worked up. It was clearly a no-win situation.

I suggest that you contact Kyri himself to verify this story. Otherwise, please stop pretending you have "sources" when all you have is newspaper clippings and hearsay.

As clearly demonstrated by your many posts, muppet, you appeart to be not interested in the truth at all. All you care about is painting us as evil regardless of any facts. I have said that I don't mind if people disagree with us on any issue (and many people do disagree with us on some issues, and that is their right). But spreading exaggerated versions of the facts and outright lies about us is not only unfair to us but also unfair to the many people who do want to know the truth.

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zeuszor
First of all, I never said that the Army is a cult, I said it is cult-like, and that a lot of the same dynamics of control are in place between that type of training and cult training. If you disagree wit hme, spend a few years in the Army and then try and tell me that. Second, if being treated for major depression and anxiety, if being in a shrink's care, being diagnosed with Obsessive-Complusive Disorder, and taking Prozac is a crime, then I am guilty. You have no idea how stressful and anxiety-producing Iraq was. The Army sucks, man. War sucks. Give me some credit, pardner. If I was that far off my rocker I would have never made it out of Basic, much less into the sandbox. For me to have been labeled as having a "personality disorder" by sadistic and abusive people like that is, like, a compliment. I resisted their sadistic bulls**t and they let me go, Praise God. Third, why the cult-hopping? You know, I was thinking on that today. You tell me, man. I also have a tendancy to drink too much and in the flesh am as cynical and angry at the world as McKay, Anthony, or any of the rest of them. So I ain't trying to play-Mr. Self-Righteous here. If thinking for myself and not just uncritically accepting whatever some joker wants me to swallow makes me somebody with a "personality disorder" then like I said before I'll wear it like the Medal of Honor.

Okay, I'm just giving my advice. I think it's good that you are upfront with a lot of your problems and how they affect you. Are you seeing someone now about you illness? I have a friend with OCD and he got help for it which has worked wonders. He's a lot more able to cope. Anyway, best of luck.

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apostate
No scare mongering happening here Xenophone, so no need to be so defensive of a group that is obviously a cult. As I cannot upload the article in question I will cut and paste it below as evidence, so please excuse its length, but you know Dave... he loves to talk, especially when it is about himself. It is entitled "Divine Authority". I have highlighted the relevant parts to make it easier to see.

I posted some responses last night but they didn't turn up on the page for some reason.

Yeah, my apologies, I should have heard you out. I do remember that Divine authority article.

I personally don't have a problem with the idea of having an anointed leader. Its just that with the JCs they have this divine authority teaching at the same time they mock other churches for not their lack of spirituality because they follow their leaders.

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cultmalleus
Hitler and Stalin were both beaten mercilessly as children. So was Dave, I believe .

And so it continues. Do you really think it is fair to compare Dave with Hitler and Stalin?

Thanks, Xenophone, for your contributions. I think one difference with regard to the divine authority is that we still teach that you should follow God in preference to any human leader (whether or not it is Dave and whether or not they claim to be annointed).

I am not sure if it has been mentioned or not in this thread so far (as I haven't had time to read all the posts in detail yet) but I think a significant point that may have been missed is that Dave disbanded the community over a year ago. We split up into smaller autonomous teams of which Xenophone and his wife was one. So, although you later felt that you wished not to be associated at all with the JCs, I think you can appreciate that you were in fact autonomous for quite some time before that happened.

But, I am not sure that people on this forum are interested in that, as it may challenge the credibility of their dictatorial descriptions of Dave and their comparisons of him to such historical figures as Stalin and Hitler (not to mention the classic comparison to David Berg)