Bryan Apollo: I never wrote about LYDIA WEST and her help ten years and twelve years ago, because I was using an excess of caution in order to safeguard her privacy and anonymity. But, like I said, we've not seen one another or spoken in almost ten years, and she has dementia now (therefore she probably would not even remember who I am), so I decided it was time to put all my cards on the table, so to speak. I could not have achieved what I achieved with the McKay group, without her help. Besides, it'd be impossible for anybody to identify and find her. Of this I have no doubt.

David: I was the first person to officially prove the deaths of two noteworthy leaders of destructive groups, and these were Jim Roberts (aka Brother Evangelist, of the Brethren/Garbage Eaters) and Gene Spriggs (aka Yoneq, of the Twelve Tribes). Not to brag, but I take pleasure in this fact. It's amusing to me, and I wanted to write of it here. Those two men were terrible, narcissistic cult leaders and I was able to confirm that they are indeed gone.

It'd be a real thrill to me, if I was able to bring the news of your death to to the world (as I was able to do with those two) but I doubt if that will happen. Probably that news will come out of Australia, or else some country other than the USA. But no matter; until then, I will daily be searching the Internet for news of your death, and will happily report the news to this message board (unless somebody beats me to it) when that happens, as it inevitably will.

You have done your best to silence me over the years, David, but you have failed. Sorry, but I refuse to be silenced by you or anybody else. I'm gonna be researching and reporting on you and your activities until you kick off of this mortal coil. I promise.

Here is something, that, to me, is an interesting difference between the McKay group and the Children of God/Family:

David "MO" Berg was very homophobic, and did not permit homosexuals to live openly as homosexuals, as members of the Children of God. "Sodomites" (his word for what we would call "gay" men) were either expelled from the group or else forced to marry women in an effort to change them.

There was no male-to-male "sharing" in the COG/Family. That was forbidden.

However, David Berg was cool with lesbians and (for those female members who identified as such) female-to-female "sharing" was permitted and (under certain circumstances) even encouraged.

So gay sex was verboten in David Berg's cult, but lesbian sex was OK with him. Maria continued this policy, later on, after MO passed away (it's part of "Loving Jesus").

By contrast, nobody is "sharing" with anybody else in the McKay group, and indeed Dave prefers (but does not demand) for his disciples to be celibate and unmarried. In fact, there's more than one married couple in the McKay group, and I do not know if there are any children in it at the present time (though I doubt if that is the case).

McKay encourages his disciples to masturbate in order to maintain their celibacy, not to "share" with one another like his mentor David Berg did.

David McKay will allow openly gay men (and presumably lesbian women too) to be part of his group, as well. As far as I know, McKay does not forbid openly gay dudes from being part of his group (as Berg did).

Please also see:

[www.xfamily.org]

[pubs.xfamily.org]

[pubs.xfamily.org]

[pubs.xfamily.org]

[pubs.xfamily.org]

"38. Question 11: How can men have this intimate, sexy relationship with Jesus and it not be a male-with-male homosexual relationship?

39. Answer: Because you men become female in Spirit during your times of intimate lovemaking with Jesus. In your lovemaking with Jesus you are not a man. You are making love to Him as His Bride, His spiritual wife. This has nothing to do with a male-to-male relationship. This is not a homosexual relationship. It is a spiritual female, you, making love to a male, Jesus. He is the Man‚ the Bridegroom, and you are the woman, His Bride, His wife."



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2022 09:17AM by The Whirlwind.

Please also see:

[www.exfamily.org]

[www.xfamily.org]

[www.xfamily.org]

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2022 10:18AM by The Whirlwind.

"Much of the deep revelations that I have received from the Lord was so in the Spirit that I was not even conscious of what was happening and afterwards, I had to be told what had been said. All I know is this is the way God speak to me and has from the beginning and I am only a messenger boy who delivers his telegrams and I am not responsible for what is being said or revealed. You'll have blame God for that, or thank Him."

--David Berg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2022 11:47AM by The Whirlwind.

There's something else that I noticed when studying more on the topic of David Berg, and what XFamily circles have termed "Bergisms."

[www.xfamily.org]

Has anybody ever noticed how David (McKay, that is) peppers his communiques and teachings with the "Ha!" suffix to denote derision, or "as an interjection emoting amusement or hilarity in a given subject," or as well how he seems to have a habit of overusing exclamation points in his writings, JUST LIKE DAVID BERG?

Also there is Dave's apparent preoccupation with thriftiness and saving; as well I have heard from various sources (this forum included) that Dave is extremely "cheap," JUST LIKE DAVID BERG.

Rationing of toilet paper, saving every last bit of toothpaste, etc. Same kinds of things. Berg used literal rods, McKay uses whips. On and on the parallels go.

The McKay group's teachings are mainly just paraphrased versions of the MO Letters, as I have described in earlier postings.

There are so many similarities between the two of them that one would think (other than in the the obvious, prurient ways, but even then, Dave McKay's preoccupation with masturbation is more than a little disturbing) David McKay is not just trying to emulate David Berg, he is trying to BE David Berg.

When I was on the Jeremy Kyle show, Dave started to babble about masturbation: "Who masturbates? Who masturbates?" He cried out while waving his hand up in the air as is to say "Me too!" Now I shall tell you about the exact context in which wanking was brought up as a topic for discussion. I remember it vividly, and that stuff never made it into the final cut, or therefore on the air.

It was close to the end of the show, and L was telling the audience about some of the odd particulars of group's doctrine; she told of how the males in the group are pressured into getting vasectomies, also she told about how Dave encourages people to masturbate, not just that it was allowed, but encouraged. Of course all of the members who were on stage denied these things and said that she was lying.

L looked incredulous and disgusted. She said impatiently, "But it's on your website Dave. The whole world can read about it." Then Dave said something like, "OK, I admit it. That's true. I masturbate. Who else masturbates? Who masturbates?" He was grinning and waving his arm in the air. Then he said "No, better yet, who in the audience HAS masturbated?"

There was a gasp of shock and disgust from the audience, a grumble of discomfort at Dave's display of lack of self-control for shock value. L puckered her lips as if to express profound contempt. G. Baldwin shook his head ruefully. I simply stared at Dave in amazement because I nearly literally couldn't believe what I was witnessing. Jeremy Kyle told Dave that he was acting perverse and childish.

Dave just giggled like he was pleased with himself, and the other Jesus Christians on stage laughed on cue also. It was a bizarre scene.

Here I am. This is me, in this Jeremy Kyle clip from 14 years ago:

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2022 08:39AM by The Whirlwind.

In the spring or early summer of 2002, almost twenty years ago, I actually met Ufuoma (in Dallas) when she was a member of the group that was then known as "the Jesus Christians." That's when I was with them for my own "trial week." Fran was rather rude to her, a bit mean even.

The group was eating together, but I declined to eat anything with them. At one point Ufuoma said to me, "Why don't you get some food? You don't know what you're missing" as she smiled, rubbed her stomach and relished another bite. Fran said to her sharply, "Don't say that!" and shot her this cold look. Ufuoma looked down at the floor. That disturbed me. Why should he care what she said to who, and then tell her not to speak, I thought?

Shortly after witnessing this exchange, I got the hell out of there.

The other thing I remember most clearly is how skinny Sue was. I remember wondering to myself if she was anorexic, or what. I mean, she looked downright emaciated.

This page is protected, and I cannot cut and paste from it. But please look at Number Two on this list.

The members of the McKay group put the teachings of Dave McKay on an equal level with the Christian Bible; in other words, the teachings of Dave McKay ARE Scripture within his group.

Dave includes his own writings as "Scripture" to his reading of 2 Timothy 3:16. Just like MO did with his MO LETTERS.

[blog.ufuomaee.org]

After the program....David would simply have commented to his minions that this all goes to "prove' only the JesusChristians can 'deal with the truth'...(of life, sexuality and whatever else you want to think of)... They could not have been prepared adequately for the program (usually appearances on the media are heavily tutored).... the fact that they were united in denying (what they thought would be seen as a) shameful practice... and then immediately went dumbly silent when David unexpectedly adopted the strategy of trying to 'laugh' the whole thing off....tells you EXACTLY the nature of influence David has over them... JesusChristians are entirely insincere before God...in order that may please David McKay on demand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2022 11:39PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

I tried to leave a couple of comments on the JC YouTube channel...however as my remarks will simply be censored out..thought I might leave them here..

The JesusChristians point out in one of their videos that scripture in Revelation states those who choose not to take the mark of the beast will be unable to 'buy or sell'... I commented that within the JesusChristians, no-one might 'buy or sell' without approval from David McKay...or his appointed representatives.. finances are never held jointly (Accounts where all members are signatories to withdrawal)....newer members forego their direct access to any money that is held in any JC accounts... this of course is a practice directly contradicting, the scriptural injunction of 'holding all things in common' (Acts 2:44-5)....and is yet another administrative technique David copied across from the Children of God...when he was undergoing (what was becoming) his 'apprenticeship' in cult management...in Canberra and Broken Hill....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2022 12:00AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

I tried to leave a couple of comments on the JC YouTube channel...however as my remarks will simply be censored out..thought I might leave them here...

The JesusChristians point out in one of their videos that scripture in Revelation states those who choose not to take the mark of the beast will be unable to 'buy or sell'... I commented that within the JesusChristians, no-one might 'buy or sell' without approval from David McKay...or his appointed representatives.. finances are never held jointly (Accounts where all members are signatories to withdrawal)....newer members forego their direct access to any money that is held in any JC accounts... this of course is a practice directly contradicting, the scriptural injunction of 'holding all things in common' (Acts 2:44-5)....and is yet another administrative technique David copied across from the Children of God...when he was undergoing (what was becoming) his 'apprenticeship' in cult management...in Canberra and Broken Hill....

Malcolm:

What criticism of David's leadership style, group governance and/or behavior do you think has been or is valid, in David's mind?

He has been criticized by the media/press. What of that criticism do you think was noteworthy to him, and how did he (or the group) change in response to such criticism?

Or, do you think that (in Dave's mind) no criticism of himself or his group is ever valid?

Is everybody who expresses disagreement or disapproval of Dave's behavior (or that of his group) either a liar or a bad person, to him (and therefore to the group)?

What do you think, Malcolm? You are a former member of the mcKay group, after all, and you know him better than I do.