Dave could have gone to jail a long time ago if not for Kevin, Malcolm! The sons are just enablers! I predict that Dave will try once last big publicity stunt, that is even more dangerous than the kidney thing. Then people will start to die. Kevin will have blood on his hands. He could have done something to prevent a tragedy, and chose to not do so.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

If you don't mind Whirlwind....I might continue discussing the specific scriptures that McKay references (although as you have pointed out previously his manipulative techniques are not particularly 'imaginative'....just clones of Berg's 'false dichotomies' tactics)....

For the moment I will continue with McKay's 'Fall of America' material.... that quote you have just provided is part of the 'appeal to save yourself from the impending doom that those (who lack loyalty to McKay) are destinied to suffer!

COG Bible names used by the, "McKay Family" - July 1973:

Tyrannus - Dave

Lebanon - Cherry

Simon - Kevin

Deborah - Sheri

Bartimaeus - Gary

Tabitha - Christine

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2020 12:08AM by The Whirlwind.

Dave can be demonstrated as a fraud with respect to his account of his supposed COG days, which I shall now demonstrate to be largely fictitious, taking into consideration of course the fact that COG did not keep records. There are so many holes in Dave’s story, in the time lines, that when one takes a closer look that the only conclusion that one can logically come up with is that Dave is pretty much lying about it all, 98% anyway.

If one studies an old COG publication called the Book of Remembrance and knows what Dave has said about himself, one will quickly find many inconsistencies in terms of the who, what, when, where, and why of what the COG were up to in Australia circa 1975.

I suggest interested researchers look into the Book of Remembrance in checking up on McKay’s story, esp. the names of the early Australian pioneers. I have copies of both volumes.

However, it's very difficult to conclusively prove beyond a reasonable doubt anything about the matter one way or the other, considering the fact that the COG did not keep records, and the records that they did have, they destroyed. But, I am as close to absolutely proving it as I can reasonably be.

It was Australia in the ‘70s; no records, loose connections, inefficient communication. The 70's were vague times there. Public and private records were on cards and in manila folders.

So the truth is that technically, Dave simultaneously was and wasn't a COG Shepherd. He was living too far from anyone else who was part of the COG at the time. He claimed 6 members -- his family -- and they (COG leadership) couldn't dispute that. Based on this claim -- 6 members -- he received the leadership material regularly for at least a decade and probably well beyond a decade. This is how he churned out all that COG-like material.

The important thing is NOT whether he was or wasn't officially a shepherd. Because like I said, he both was and he wasn’t, and the only followers he had at first were his own wife and kids.

The important thing to understand is that he learned how to run a cult from the Family DFO material he kept receiving.

To me, it's a lot like asking if a woman is pregnant: either she is or she is not, and "Well, yes and no" means no.

David McKay wanted to be around the COG/Family to learn from them and obtain literatures that he could use in order to find materials to present as his own, and receive instruction on how to operate his own cult, but never had any intention of subjecting himself to the rules and strictures of the Family’s structure; he would never submit himself to anybody’s authority and would never make a good cult member, no, he simply leeched on to them for a while and used what he took from the Family in order to organize and run the group that eventually came to be known as the Jesus Christians.

In other words, just as the COG/Family were doing “Invading the Churches” stuff in order to gain credibility, respectability, and resources from established churches and denominations, in like manner, Dave basically “Invaded the Family” to do the same for himself in an effort to form his own group. He turned the Family’s modus operandi, back on the Family, and later "Invaded the Quakers," once the Family cut him off from the DFO materials. I must admit, it was a clever move on his part.

To continue: prior to 1978, the COG Shepherds were all APPOINTED to their respective positions by the next-higher person on The Chain.

After Feb. 18, 1978, everybody in The Chain was fired (Berg supposedly felt that the existing leadership was dictatorial and abusive) and the new Shepherds were ELECTED in at the colony level by local colony members.

RNR is the "COG ruling" that Dave took advantage of in order to "Shepherd" his own "colony." They (COG members at the time) were all being instructed to tell the world that the COG was disbanding and that everybody was going their separate ways.

Of course that was not true, and was an attempt to elude law enforcement and confuse "The System."

In reality, they did really not disband, they merely reorganized in a more sophisticated manner and were underground for a while. But not all members knew this, some really were led to believe that the COG had broken up; the supposed disbanding was also a pretext for purging the group of certain members, but getting them to leave on peaceful terms with no potential conflict.

The Family was highly secretive in those days, and they still are; just like Dave is paranoid to this day, and rightly so. We’re onto him like glue.

There were two ways in which somebody could have been a COG Shepherd in the mid-to-late seventies: by appointment, or else being voted into that position by the local colony.

In other words, there were no self-appointed Shepherds. Yet, Dave claims to have done just that.

He says that he appointed himself Shepherd of his own colony, and it was really just him and his wife and kids.

See what I am saying?

For that matter, RNR took place in 1978. Dave (according to the story he's always stuck to) would have been out of the COG by '76, the year when the FF-ing was being introduced.

I have uncovered inconsistency after inconsistency in Dave's story. There are lots and lots, and lots, of holes in it.

1978 was also the year in which they stopped calling themselves the COG (because they wanted the world to think that they had disbanded) and adopted the name, The Family of Love, which was shortened to The Family in '82.

This was all the direct result of the RNR.

But, it is possible that Dave was one of the Shepherds who got fired, and then simply took his family out and continued as if he was not fired. But this would contradict the story of how they left because of the FFing.

Further, we know Dave for a fact to have been in the possession of DFO (Disciples and Friends Only) Family literature as recently as 1991 (probably well beyond), and that some of that DFO material was published in the Deakin student newspaper (called The Planet) in that same year.

There was a dispute about him using the material.

This is something I still want to follow up on, to get hold of copies of the old Planet newspapers. Apparently, McKay was dismissed from the newspaper, but won a $4,000 payment from them.

There was also an article written about Dave in the Murdoch University newspaper about the matter, which he was awarded $4,000 in compensation for.

In relation to that 1990's period, David also published the Baby Books and the Nappy Chappies distributed them. They even called themselves children of God, but with a little c and said they were a remnant of the Children of God.

See the big picture now? He's twisting the truth about his involvement in the COG; he’s lying through his teeth!

There is no evidence that Dave was involved in any pedophilic activities during the time of his direct involvement with the COG.

And he thought that we were so stupid and would never figure all of these things out!

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2020 12:25AM by The Whirlwind.

It seems to me that when Dave writes things like this, he is gradually conditioning his people to be able to cheerfully accept a "final exit" for himself and the group. I just have this gut-level feeling, an intuition that this group will meet with a Heaven's Gate-ish tragic end. Emphasis added by myself:

"But the final test is our willingness to face the "last enemy", i.e. death (1 Corinthians 15:26), and to do so with a smile, as we do it for God.

Yes, the Lamb has died to forgive us for all of our shortcomings, and we thank him for that, because none of us is perfect. But he asks us who would avail ourselves of his mercy to die with him, for the good of others. He asks us to die to our selfish desires and ambitions. He asks us to die to reputation and honour. He asks us to die to the emotional pleas of well-meaning friends and relatives. He asks us to die to the comforts of the beaten path. And he finally asks us to die to life itself.

They loved not their lives unto the death. With that standard before us, the little sacrifices of living with others become insignificant by comparison. And with that standard before us, we will be able to overcome the lies and tricks of the devil.

As our blood mingles with the blood of the Lamb, our testimony becomes more than words; it takes on the authority and power of God. The world can sense when we are prepared to die for what we believe, and it responds accordingly.

Others have been prepared to die fighting for their country, fighting for their religion, fighting for their family, and fighting for their possessions. But we must be prepared to die loving... loving and preaching the truth that God is love above all else... loving and believing that this doctrine of love, which was paid for in the blood of the Lamb, is the only real answer to the world's problems."

[jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2020 07:48AM by The Whirlwind.

One other thing: I do not spend hours and hours and hours studying Dave's written work to find these quotes. I do not have the time, nor the stomach, for that. Here's my secret: all I do is read the quotes which flash, one after another, on the Jesus Christians' home page. That's how I found that "Blood of the Lamb" article (above). Dave does not make it hard to find these disturbing, sick quotes from him; Dave makes it easy to do so. He puts them right there, in your face, on the Jesus Christians' home page. Sometimes the quote seems pretty benign (on the surface, at least) and sometimes the quote makes me say "what the hell?!"

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2020 09:44AM by The Whirlwind.

After the 1998 split, Kevin and his cohort reorganized and formed a new group, which they called "Greedbuster$". Their old web page is here; you can see that it is very similar in style and content to the Jesus Christians' web page.

[web.archive.org]

This is a brief history of Dave McKay's group, from the early Eighties to about 1998.

"The Split. I wish they'd write a book. My memory is not 100%, I get hazy.
But the general drift:

Kevin as mentioned, didn't join. He was there. Kids have a mixture of
respect and disrespect for their parents.

Dave was surrounded by people who had joined, plus his kids. The general
admiration and worship he got from the joiners was spoiled a bit by the
questioning of the kids, who could also see through him, kind of. They also
knew him before he got into running a group.

In brief:
Phase 1:

They did - as you know - some work in India. Dave left them to it.
After months of hard, dangerous labor, the project was getting some
attention. The media arranged interviews etc. Kevin had been the focal point
of the group, and his wife Liz was pretty important in it all as she could
speak the language.

Kev was getting his material ready for the media. Suddenly, literally fresh
off the plane, there was Dave, literally elbowing Kev out of the way,
talking as if he were the one who did the work. Not a clue about the
details. Ruthless, embarrassing. Shameful. Unnecessary.

____________________

It takes about 8 hours to tell this story. Believe me.
____________________

Phase 2:
Back in Australia. Obvious tensions between the Indian team and the others.
Dave painted his own picture of what happened.

Kevin's wife drops JesusChristianity. They're all in a big house. Rent
needed. She gets a job, doesn't want to hand out leaflets any more. Dave
allows her to stay with Kevin, but she has to pay rent.

Dave gets the two to spy on each other and report back to him. It doesn't
work.

Dave meanwhile doing a massive PR job on his doting followers. Trouble is he
also has 4 kids who know him as a human father with failings, not as a
prophet.

Dave decides to do the old trick that some football teams and rock bands do.
You break up and reform a bit later without the person you want to drop.
Dave makes some fake agenda with Kevin, we'll do this that the other next
week, whatever. Same night he gets the others in his room and hatches a plan
involving massive deceit. The brother, Gary, and one sister Sherry run off
literally run from the place, in horror.

That was the split.

Now I'm compressing a 12 hour story there. It is heart-wrenching. Liz runs
away. Kevin can't find her. Etc. Dave keeps their furniture, her clothes.

Dave writes to the other JCs that Kev and Liz have removed every stick of
furniture from the house, probably sitting on Liz's chair, at her table
while writing.

________________________________

Kev has never been alone before. He and Craig get a house together. They're
still in the group mode. They still see themselves as believers. They still
follow the bible. They're still Jesus Christians, with a huge catastrophe
just behind them.

How do you cope?

_________________________________

WHY did it occur? Kev questioned his father. He didn't want to be the leader
of the JCs, although he did want to be the spokesman to the media in
relation to his own work.

He continued to question his father when back in Australia, just like we all
have been doing since we got involved.

Dave divided the community himself. He uses that somwone else wanting to be
the leader trick quite often.

Malcolm never wanted to be the leader either, although Dave claims it.
Malcolm more or less mutinied (is that a word?) on their 8 week desert walk
by faith. Another story."

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2020 01:58AM by The Whirlwind.

Here's another very revealing quote, relating to the split, that Dave made it easy to find. This was written about six months after the split. How ironic, in that Dave himself is the least tolerant of criticism of himself and the way he does things. "Greedbuster$", by the way, did not last long, just a short while before they all went their separate ways and into system jobs. It seems to me that the former Jesus Christians, a lot of them, still to this day have a fear of "cult busters" (which is a term, by the way, that nobody uses other than Jesus Christians and former Jesus Christians). Well, when people start to die becasue of Dave's influence they probably will not think the "cult busters" so bad. Emphasis added by myself.

I'm not sure that "bitterness" is always the right word for it; but at least there is a "hurt" that accompanies almost all criticism, and this hurt forms the basis for a potential for bitterness. Then, when someone finally decides to make a break with the community, because discipline in general is becoming too much of a drag, all of those past corrections come flooding back from their memories, and the hurts quickly turn to bitterness.

This concept perfectly describes what happens with anyone who leaves this fellowship (or any other fellowship which believes in discipline). Because cult-busters are primarily ex-members of close-knit, disciplined groups, bitterness about the disciplines that they experienced forms the basis for much of the cult-busting mentality. (It may also be why so many people are bitter toward their fathers.)

[jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2020 02:08AM by The Whirlwind.

Psychological "projection" is a constant feature of David Mckay's twisted and bitter denigration of those who challenge him in any way as 'bitter'....

...it is a meaningless accusation (I interpret it as a compliment) coming from an individual who consistently deliberately belittles others....

....the circular reasoning that you point out here DOES make me sometimes worry that he remains sick enough to contemplate a 'Heaven's Gate' murder-suicide end to it all....however I think you need to 'balance' his rat-like interest in his own preservation...with the purportedly 'noble spirituality' that he claims for himself....

...to what extent is David McKay..'mad'..or just 'bad'...he is a mix of both! As he has aged the 'rat' has comes to predominate..


To turn his selfishly preposterous allegations upon himself.... just make an assertion....

For example....

'David McKay has due to his ungodly pride has consistently refused to submit himself to the leadings of God clearly indicated through the biblical leadership that I would have provided to him were not his underlying bitterness to have constantly precluded him from submitting to the 'fatherly' direction that I have so generously sought to have gifted him.....'

Then REPEAT ad naseum....

'David McKay has due to his ungodly pride has consistently refused to submit himself to the leadings of God clearly indicated through the biblical leadership that I would have provided to him were not his underlying bitterness to have constantly precluded him from submitting to the 'fatherly' direction that I have so generously sought to have gifted him.....'

'David McKay has due to his ungodly pride has consistently refused to submit himself to the leadings of God clearly indicated through the biblical leadership that I would have provided to him were not his underlying bitterness to have constantly precluded him from submitting to the 'fatherly' direction that I have so generously sought to have gifted him.....'

and so on ....and so...


That's the extent of the complexity of the idiot's technique....I mean THAT's it!!... (and why the Jesus Christian's only ever attracted individuals DECADES younger than McKay...anyone his own age immediately sees through his shallowness).



(By the way...did you know...

'David McKay has due to his ungodly pride has consistently refused to submit himself to the leadings of God clearly indicated through the biblical leadership that I would have provided to him were not his underlying bitterness to have constantly precluded him from submitting to the 'fatherly' direction that I have so generously sought to have gifted him.....'

Have you heard in fact heard....

'David McKay has due to his ungodly pride has consistently refused to submit himself to the leadings of God clearly indicated through the biblical leadership that I would have provided to him were not his underlying bitterness to have constantly precluded him from submitting to the 'fatherly' direction that I have so generously sought to have gifted him.....'


...the mental competence of a twat (and the phobia of 'losing control') has worked to keep McKay's sect to third rate status in the cult 'hierarchy' of infamy....

....I DID say that I would look at a few of the scriptures routinely bandied about by McKay ...and in particular the verses that McKay claims that he faithfully interprets in relation to the end times....(collated in works such as his 'Fall of America')...

...these represent the 'sacred cows' of the Jesus Christians...and of course to challenge McKay's interpretation was always 'verboten'...(it threatened the basis of his 'legitimacy' to authoritatively lead the group)...

...and so ...thus here is an 'illegal discussion' (that could never be held in the JesusChristians...because by extension you are questioning McKay's sway) of one such topic...in this field...'which nations constitute the 'beast'?


Revelation 13 : 1 - 4 and Daniel 7 : 3 - 7 both outline a 'beast' (a multi-national conglomerate) that effects the will of Satan by mass murdering (presumably millions?) of souls...many of whom are Christian...initially (in Revelation) by effecting the military obliteration of the United States of America (the woman in Revelation 17 : 3 onwards)

Several animal symbols of the nations involved are used to illustrate the passages...

You will see that David McKay (or Mckay's version of David Berg) in his writings consistently describe the 'leopard' as the third world.... here I think (I cannot claim to be an expert...I am merely providing my opinion) that particular interpretation is incorrect.

I personally interpret the bear, leopard, lion and dragon....as Russia (as does McKay), Iran, Syria and China....thus the nature of the 'beast' is largely already in effect ...lorded over by the United States currently..in the world order (Revelation 17 ; 3 once more).....the Leopard being animal imagery associated with Persia (now Iran)...the winged lion with Assyria (now Syria) and of course, the dragon being long associated with China....

...we would only need President Trump (Donald!....or later President Ivanka???) to make the United States militarily weakened to the point that it was vulnerable to attack....say by removing troops overseas (Germany and of course threatened in South Korea) and alienating former allies and CONCENTRATING the military within the mainland US...by downgrading the 'air' and 'sea' arms of the United States (this is yet to happen ...however I am giving my time-line another 5 and a half years until April 2026 for this to occur) where a counter strike is precluded.... this might slowly take place where Trump had bankrupted the US...or stupidly colluded with his 'friend' Putin (for the sake of business dealings after his presidency had ended clearly) and provided him militarily sensitive information....or had 'exacted revenge' by removing competent officers in the military how had 'crossed him' somehow......

I would consider these to all be governance trends visible in President Trumps' current mismanagement ....

I don't think that my interpretation of the animal imagery in Daniel and the Book of Revelation to be any less justifiable than David McKay...



You may choose to disagree with me....however the opinions expressed here in the last seven pragraphs would see me (or anyone) expelled from the JesusChristians....

....there would be a series of 'grievance meeting' (trial by self - criticism) procedures....as I had dared to stray from the 'orthodoxy' (of David's sacred canon of thought) where I would be directed to 'sincerely' identify the error of my ways...and repent...(or face expulsion!)

None of the eschatology (the 'end time beliefs) of the JesusChristians have ever been challenged (or modified in the slightest) for the last 40 to 50 years... they are all exactly the same 'canon' as when I was in the JesusChristians (1981 - 5)....because McKay HAS TO be able to rationalize why HE should forever be the 'shepherd' (...and the rest of the world little but adoring, if forever stupid 'sheep')....